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vwwestyman
Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2004
Posts: 5688
Location: Manhattan, Kansas, USA
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vwwestyman
Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2004
Posts: 5688
Location: Manhattan, Kansas, USA
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16859
Location: sticksville, ct.
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 Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:37 pm Post subject: Re: WTF fuel gauge suddenly reversed operation: A live trip report |
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swing that bitch in there on the trailer. don't be afraid. it's not like it's a 27' offset disc harrow 
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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Xevin 
Samba Member
Joined: January 08, 2014
Posts: 7623
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:34 pm Post subject: Re: WTF fuel gauge suddenly reversed operation: A live trip report |
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Glad you all made it home. Love the Wild Westerner front door 
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Keep on Busin'
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo!  |
| Clatter wrote: |
| Damn that Xevin... |
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
I respect Xevin and he's a turd  |
| SGKent wrote: |
My God! Xevin and I 100% agree  |
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vwwestyman
Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2004
Posts: 5688
Location: Manhattan, Kansas, USA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:08 pm Post subject: Re: WTF fuel gauge suddenly reversed operation: A live trip report |
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Skills: I've backed the boat into the driveway plenty of times, but my street is a feeder and somewhat busy so it is always a pain in the butt. I had a group of friends who were willing to swing by and give it a shove. Much easier.
Xevin: Thanks for noticing! When I painted the door, I actually removed the fuel flap and brought it in for paint-matching.
Bus is currently sitting where the Eurovan was in the pic. I'm not sure when I'll get a chance to pull the engine for a post-mortem. Hopefully it won't be real long.
It seems fairly straight forward to think that when the vacuum pump came loose, it lost oil pressure and that probably killed it in short order since we were traveling at freeway speeds. And because I bet my wife didn't think to shut down the ignition and throw it into neutral to get over. She said the oil light came on before the engine died, but I do wonder how long before... She hasn't experienced any of the other major breakdowns, so she's not trauma-trained to watch all that like a hawk. Either way, I'm pretty sure we were coasting to the side with it in 4th gear and the momentum forced the engine to keep turning for a bit longer.
I do wonder, though, how that would cause the coolant to erupt out of the overflow? I'm certain it didn't pop any hoses. Could running for a short time have caused it to get that hot that quickly? Seems somewhat unlikely to me. I had told her to keep an eye on the EGT and coolant temp gauges.
_________________
Dave Cook
President, Wild Westerner Club
1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
My Thing |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16859
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:39 pm Post subject: Re: WTF fuel gauge suddenly reversed operation: A live trip report |
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the coolant is an anomaly for sure.
unless the vac pump spun around all poltergeist for a bit before it popped up maybe it took out a hose?
i've been thinking about this while rubbing one out to a photo of Xevin and i can't wrap my head around why the vac pump popped out unless the crows foot bolt was lose.
if the IM shaft seized it would have triggered the oil light and the t belt would have burnt up.
i HAVE seen the IM shaft lock up in the past, but never seen a vac pump pop out like that.
i can't remember if they had a lock washer on that bolt from the factory and/or a dab of thread locker on it.
last one i fooled with was on a 16v and even at that, it's the "dummy plug" with the only purpose of driving the oil pump.
i have to say, i admire your dedication to this. at this point i'd have burnt it to the ground after using it as a target.
i'm sure it will live again
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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Xevin
Samba Member
Joined: January 08, 2014
Posts: 7623
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:53 pm Post subject: Re: WTF fuel gauge suddenly reversed operation: A live trip report |
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| vwwestyman wrote: |
Xevin: When I painted the door, I actually removed the fuel flap and brought it in for paint |
Sounds about right
Any special white cake and beer left over? I’m still not sure what White Cake is  I get the color. Is “White Cake” a unique style of cake in the Midwest?
Dave was texting me about some special white cakes he picked up along the way. Sorry if this wasn’t being technical about his bus situation
I love your “ACVW” attitude. Looking forward to your fix.
_________________
Keep on Busin'
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
| GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
| Clatter wrote: |
| Damn that Xevin... |
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| I respect Xevin and he's a turd |
| SGKent wrote: |
| My God! Xevin and I 100% agree |
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vwwestyman
Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2004
Posts: 5688
Location: Manhattan, Kansas, USA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:17 am Post subject: Re: WTF fuel gauge suddenly reversed operation: A live trip report |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
the coolant is an anomaly for sure.
unless the vac pump spun around all poltergeist for a bit before it popped up maybe it took out a hose?
i've been thinking about this while rubbing one out to a photo of Xevin and i can't wrap my head around why the vac pump popped out unless the crows foot bolt was lose.
if the IM shaft seized it would have triggered the oil light and the t belt would have burnt up.
i HAVE seen the IM shaft lock up in the past, but never seen a vac pump pop out like that.
i can't remember if they had a lock washer on that bolt from the factory and/or a dab of thread locker on it.
last one i fooled with was on a 16v and even at that, it's the "dummy plug" with the only purpose of driving the oil pump.
i have to say, i admire your dedication to this. at this point i'd have burnt it to the ground after using it as a target.
i'm sure it will live again |
I was making jokes about lighting it on fire while showering in diesel fuel. In retrospect on that issue, I'm not sure the filter was the problem after all. It may have been running like it wasn't getting enough fuel due to the MAF getting wonky, though it did "feel" a little bit different so I can't be certain.
As far as dedication, I've had this bus since the summer of 2002. I now by far it's longest-duration owner, and am the 3rd owner. So there is a good bit of sentimental value, even though there have been plenty of times I've thought about burning it down. Whether or not I remain dedicated to a TDI engine back there, remains to be seen...
Anyway,
With the engine installed, the hold-down bolt is somewhat difficult to get tightened. It is very close to the fire wall, and the aux fuse box, coolant tank, and other various hoses all are obstacles. I don't recall why, but I do recall having to bolt that vacuum pump down with the engine installed. But that was at least a couple years and multiple road trips ago. So one would think if the issue was simply I didn't get it tightened enough, it would have popped before now. I remember being very certain I'd gotten it fully tight, owing to the fact that it was a bit difficult to get to I was careful to make sure I got it right.
The bolt didn't end up in the basket, so I have no idea where it is or what kind of shape it is in.
I haven't pulled the cover to fully inspect the belt, but I did push my hand in there to feel the top of it and it felt tight. That shaft on that engine is run by the back side of the belt.
Cursory inspection did not reveal any hoses broken or burst. I wonder if maybe the engine was forced to spin long enough without any oil that there was some localized "super heating" in the engine, such that when it finally did stop, the very hot engine then caused the coolant in the block to boil because it was no longer being circulated by the pump? (Water pump belt is intact.)
_________________
Dave Cook
President, Wild Westerner Club
1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
My Thing |
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vwwestyman
Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2004
Posts: 5688
Location: Manhattan, Kansas, USA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:23 am Post subject: Re: WTF fuel gauge suddenly reversed operation: A live trip report |
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| Xevin wrote: |
| vwwestyman wrote: |
Xevin: When I painted the door, I actually removed the fuel flap and brought it in for paint |
Sounds about right
Any special white cake and beer left over? I’m still not sure what White Cake is I get the color. Is “White Cake” a unique style of cake in the Midwest?
Dave was texting me about some special white cakes he picked up along the way. Sorry if this wasn’t being technical about his bus situation
I love your “ACVW” attitude. Looking forward to your fix. |
For context, Xevin was texting me pics of fresh-hop beers that are only available in the PNW. I think it was to make me jealous!
Whenever I road trip, I like to pick up some beers that are local to the area and I can't get back home, as my souvenirs. (Besides, in this case, the lava lamp.)
Besides beer, I also really like cake. The host of a podcast I like listening to (especially when road-tripping), Stuff You Should Know, occasionally talks about the white cake with buttercream frosting that is available at Publix supermarkets. That is largely a SE US chain far as I can tell.
Being a cake fan and a beer fan, while my wife went to a birthday dinner with her friend in Birmingham, I took the opportunity to go to a Publix and pick up some cake and some beer.
The cake was all eaten that evening (so Xevin doesn't think I'm a total fatty, it was shared among 6 adults) but most of the beer made it home.
"White cake" is a vanilla cake that is made with no egg yolks and no butter (using white shortening instead) to result in a nearly pure white appearance. It is a traditional wedding cake flavor. "Yellow cake" is also a vanilla cake that uses whole eggs and butter, giving it the yellow color. "Vanilla cake" could be either white or yellow depending on who is using the term. Source:
https://www.thekitchn.com/whats-the-difference-between-white-yellow-and-vanilla-cake-230663
_________________
Dave Cook
President, Wild Westerner Club
1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
My Thing |
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TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 12846
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:44 am Post subject: Re: WTF fuel gauge suddenly reversed operation: A live trip report |
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It takes a lot to “superheat” a diesel. Oil pressure loss, will destroy the bearings & related surfaces, but it ain’t gonna cause it to overheat. I suspect that your computer & gauge wonkiness might have been voltage related & thus, cooling fans might not have been working as they should & when it stopped moving, what air flow there was, was gone.
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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vwwestyman
Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2004
Posts: 5688
Location: Manhattan, Kansas, USA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:57 am Post subject: Re: WTF fuel gauge suddenly reversed operation: A live trip report |
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| TDCTDI wrote: |
| It takes a lot to “superheat” a diesel. Oil pressure loss, will destroy the bearings & related surfaces, but it ain’t gonna cause it to overheat. I suspect that your computer & gauge wonkiness might have been voltage related & thus, cooling fans might not have been working as they should & when it stopped moving, what air flow there was, was gone. |
I can't say that this is impossible because I was not driving at the time and couldn't see the gauges.
But I can say that the cooling system when underway actually did work very well and has for a long time. That was a thing I did actually get sorted out. Even traveling on hot summer days at 75 MPH, it stayed plenty cool. Would eventually get hotter than I liked if sitting idling for too long (such as that night I made the first post in this thread) but even then it was sitting idling for like a half hour (after driving on the highway) before I decided to shut it down. I did note that the fans didn't turn on that time, but those were the only conditions they ever did in the past. EGTs getting higher than I'd like will slow me down long before coolant temps when going up a mountain or something.
And, it was cool and rainy when this occurred.
I wish I had a chance to check the voltage before all this happened. I was planning to do it later that day, once we'd stopped for the day.
I suppose for curiosity's sake, I could pull the alternator and take it someplace to have it tested and see what kind of voltage it was putting out.
_________________
Dave Cook
President, Wild Westerner Club
1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
My Thing |
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TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 12846
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:09 am Post subject: Re: WTF fuel gauge suddenly reversed operation: A live trip report |
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But did you hear the fans anytime during or leading up to the event?
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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vwwestyman
Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2004
Posts: 5688
Location: Manhattan, Kansas, USA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:25 am Post subject: Re: WTF fuel gauge suddenly reversed operation: A live trip report |
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| TDCTDI wrote: |
| But did you hear the fans anytime during or leading up to the event? |
I did not.
But, if past performance is to be believed, I would have had no reason to believe that the fans would have been needed given driving conditions and all that.
Hence me believing that perhaps the coolant flow was enough to carry away some of the heat, but once the engine stopped, excess heat could no longer be carried away and therefore there was boiling in the block.
But I'm now seeing what you're getting at-that if it were hot enough to boil over when stopped, that would seem to mean that it should have been hot enough to turn the fan on before that. But I simply can't say for sure one way or another if the engine was getting very hot prior to the critical incident, or if something else caused it to boil over after we stopped.
Temperature probe for the fan is located on the radiator, near where the hot water enters.
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Dave Cook
President, Wild Westerner Club
1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
My Thing |
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richparker
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2011
Posts: 6981
Location: Durango, CO
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| Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:31 am Post subject: Re: WTF fuel gauge suddenly reversed operation: A live trip report |
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Bum deal Dave, sorry.
I guess you wife got a good view of the VW life…hopefully she will continue to take trips in it with you.
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16859
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:01 pm Post subject: Re: WTF fuel gauge suddenly reversed operation: A live trip report |
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| vwwestyman wrote: |
Temperature probe for the fan is located on the radiator, near where the hot water enters. |
| vwwestyman wrote: |
And, it was cool and rainy when this occurred.. |
well, there is your problem. those temp senders suck donkey balls....the ones you shovel into the fins of the radiator.
i'm betting the rain mist really skewed the readings on that sender.
on a rainy day it's amazing how an underbelly radiator will drop temps like a rock when it's even just a bit misty.
fan control should be taken from the hottest point of the engine, preferably right next to the ECT controlling the ECU.
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 12846
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:58 pm Post subject: Re: WTF fuel gauge suddenly reversed operation: A live trip report |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| vwwestyman wrote: |
Temperature probe for the fan is located on the radiator, near where the hot water enters. |
| vwwestyman wrote: |
And, it was cool and rainy when this occurred.. |
well, there is your problem. those temp senders suck donkey balls....the ones you shovel into the fins of the radiator.
i'm betting the rain mist really skewed the readings on that sender.
on a rainy day it's amazing how an underbelly radiator will drop temps like a rock when it's even just a bit misty.
fan control should be taken from the hottest point of the engine, preferably right next to the ECT controlling the ECU. |
Wait, you mean that he was using one of those POS capillary style probes?!? In the radiator, 10 feet away from the engine?
That’s like trying to take your temperature with the thermometer in someone else’s ass.
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16859
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:23 pm Post subject: Re: WTF fuel gauge suddenly reversed operation: A live trip report |
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yea, that is what i think he's running.
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22639
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:12 pm Post subject: Re: WTF fuel gauge suddenly reversed operation: A live trip report |
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You can coast a long way with no oil pressure and no damage. Don’t write off that engine yet. Put it back together and listen to it. Diesel compression test needs a high pressure gauge and be really careful around diesel injectors.
I’ve got some good vibes on this one
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vwwestyman
Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2004
Posts: 5688
Location: Manhattan, Kansas, USA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:21 pm Post subject: Re: WTF fuel gauge suddenly reversed operation: A live trip report |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| vwwestyman wrote: |
Temperature probe for the fan is located on the radiator, near where the hot water enters. |
| vwwestyman wrote: |
And, it was cool and rainy when this occurred.. |
well, there is your problem. those temp senders suck donkey balls....the ones you shovel into the fins of the radiator.
i'm betting the rain mist really skewed the readings on that sender.
on a rainy day it's amazing how an underbelly radiator will drop temps like a rock when it's even just a bit misty.
fan control should be taken from the hottest point of the engine, preferably right next to the ECT controlling the ECU. |
Welp... I was just following the directions.
Either way, the probe only controls if the fan turns on. Coolant temp gauge reads from the coolant temp sender at the head.
Katherine says she was keeping an eagle eye on the temp gauges (coolant and exhaust) because we were in a hilly area and they were consistently lower than the ranges I told her to slow down at. Said she even looked at the moment the engine "blew" and they were still normal.
The rainy day comment should, theoretically, also apply to the actual temps of the engine/radiator. Until it "blew," at least.
_________________
Dave Cook
President, Wild Westerner Club
1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
My Thing |
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vwwestyman
Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2004
Posts: 5688
Location: Manhattan, Kansas, USA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:23 pm Post subject: Re: WTF fuel gauge suddenly reversed operation: A live trip report |
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| Abscate wrote: |
You can coast a long way with no oil pressure and no damage. Don’t write off that engine yet. Put it back together and listen to it. Diesel compression test needs a high pressure gauge and be really careful around diesel injectors.
I’ve got some good vibes on this one |
I suppose at this point, it can't hurt to give it a shot. If it's toasted, it's toasted and can't get much more toasted. But maybe there's a chance it isn't toasted!
_________________
Dave Cook
President, Wild Westerner Club
1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
My Thing |
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