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a.marscapone Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2017 Posts: 107 Location: The Quiet Corner, CT
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Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2021 2:20 pm Post subject: Re: 1967 1500cc engine removal, evaluation and repair |
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a.marscapone wrote: |
Installed distributor drive shaft, slot at 90 degrees to case line, large side toward flywheel. Took 5 shims to get to .042" lash
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aha! The distributor hold down clamp is not laying flat with the case, that's why so many shims. The white arrow in the pic below is pointing to the gap between the case and the clamp. Will try to wrestle the clamp into shape...
_________________ 73 Westy
67 Zenith Blue Beetle Sedan
73 Beetle Sedan
67 Lotus White Beetle Sedan - current |
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VW_Jimbo Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016 Posts: 9950 Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:15 pm Post subject: Re: 1967 1500cc engine removal, evaluation and rebuild |
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Just 2 shims. Out of the thousand or so engines I tore down and rebuilt.....every one of them was 2 shims.
Never ever had an issue with that area of the case or distributor from that. _________________ Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
TDCTDI wrote: |
Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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TheRide Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2019 Posts: 293 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 3:37 am Post subject: Re: 1967 1500cc engine removal, evaluation and repair |
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I had a 1976 Plymouth Fury with the original 318 that wore one of the cam lobes round....the bearings looked just like that when I replaced the cam. I let it ride. Engine was full of gunk, I suspect oil starvation caused it. |
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Rome Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2004 Posts: 9640 Location: Pearl River, NY
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Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 4:32 am Post subject: Re: 1967 1500cc engine removal, evaluation and repair |
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a.marscapone wrote: |
Parts are in, rebuild has started. I ordered most of it via Gene Berg Enterprises:
Brazilian AS41 full flowed case
Berg full flow oil kit
Mahle 85.5 forged pistons, honed cylinders
OE crankshaft CW, 8 doweled, lightened flywheel
Balanced rotating assembly
OE rods rebuilt
Engle cam w-90 stock duration
Engle lifters
Double thrust cam bearings
Rebuilt single port heads, semi-semi cut 55 cc chambers approx. 7.1 compression
CB windage pushrod tubes
NOS F&S pressure plate (vwnos.com)
Sachs clutch disc
26mm plugged oil pump, Berg cover
Solid rocker shaft kit, swivel feet adjusters
NOS Leistritz muffler (bugcity.com) |
-You have some high quality parts for this engine. As to the camshaft and the compression ratio- you'll probably get different opinions. Here's one: http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Engle-W90-Type-1-Camshaft-1-1-or-1-25-Rockers-p/e6090.htm
You'll probably be able to influence the compression ratio by the deck height during your mock-up stage. Do you already have cylinder base shims of different thicknesses?
-Semi-hemi cut is somewhat unusual these days, though Berg is well known for supporting/promoting them. Your heads probably came with an instruction sheet as to the ignition timing recommendations. I have a set of SH heads on my Beetle's current "temporary" 1600 dual-port engine, on which I have the total timing set to 35 or maybe even 37 using a German SVDA distributor. I had the heads cut for SH back in the '90's. For my engine tune-up remembering, I cut a piece of 2" wide masking tape into a rectangle and pasted it onto the fan shroud face with the total timing written with a permanent marker. Or you can make a more professional-appearing sticker using your home printer using silver vinyl-coated sticker material, and large-font print using Helvetica to appear close to the VW style.
-Did you consider stepping up to 88 mm machine-in pistons/cylinders? Those would get you to 1679 cc and would only need the head machined for the larger outer diameter. The cylinder bases slip into the case. But for your build, your 85.5 will be fine, of course.
-Will you send your original 1500 case out for a line bore so that you can rebuilt it as a spare? |
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a.marscapone Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2017 Posts: 107 Location: The Quiet Corner, CT
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Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 12:23 pm Post subject: Re: 1967 1500cc engine removal, evaluation and rebuild |
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VW_Jimbo wrote: |
Just 2 shims. Out of the thousand or so engines I tore down and rebuilt.....every one of them was 2 shims.
Never ever had an issue with that area of the case or distributor from that. |
I will heed your advice and experience. The extra shims are also causing my fuel pump rod land a few millimeters above spec. Thanks! _________________ 73 Westy
67 Zenith Blue Beetle Sedan
73 Beetle Sedan
67 Lotus White Beetle Sedan - current |
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a.marscapone Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2017 Posts: 107 Location: The Quiet Corner, CT
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Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 12:28 pm Post subject: Re: 1967 1500cc engine removal, evaluation and repair |
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TheRide wrote: |
I had a 1976 Plymouth Fury with the original 318 that wore one of the cam lobes round....the bearings looked just like that when I replaced the cam. I let it ride. Engine was full of gunk, I suspect oil starvation caused it. |
ah, that makes sense, thanks. The cam followers were completely flat and the main bearings looked like they might of had oil starvation as well. But gosh, the engine still ran well... _________________ 73 Westy
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a.marscapone Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2017 Posts: 107 Location: The Quiet Corner, CT
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Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: 1967 1500cc engine removal, evaluation and repair |
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Thanks for the comments and the link, Rome. I did not anticipate how much I would enjoy this car. It became my daily driver.
I did check the deck height, but did not do a very good job as I got different readings using different methods. I used a deck height tool and according to the screw method I've got approx. .060" on each cylinder. When using my HF digital caliber to measure the depth from the top of the deck height tool to the top of the cylinder, then subtracting the thickness of the tool I get approx. .068" - .071" in each. I need to more accurately measure the thickness of the very center of the tool as there is varying thickness from the middle to the edges. Lastly using a straight edge and feeler guages, I get approx. .062" - .068" in each. So I will be doing this again in my second mockup. The good news, I think, is the relatively equal deck heights I am getting in each cylinder. And since the compression will be in the low to mid 7's, I don't think I need any shimming.
Rome wrote: |
Semi-hemi cut is somewhat unusual these days, though Berg is well known for supporting/promoting them. Your heads probably came with an instruction sheet as to the ignition timing recommendations. I have a set of SH heads on my Beetle's current "temporary" 1600 dual-port engine, on which I have the total timing set to 35 or maybe even 37 using a German SVDA distributor. I had the heads cut for SH back in the '90's. For my engine tune-up remembering, I cut a piece of 2" wide masking tape into a rectangle and pasted it onto the fan shroud face with the total timing written with a permanent marker. Or you can make a more professional-appearing sticker using your home printer using silver vinyl-coated sticker material, and large-font print using Helvetica to appear close to the VW style. |
Yes, SH cut is unusual these days. And in my research opinions varied widely. But I did notice that the folks running SH heads, were generally pleased. I hope your "temporary" engine is running well... In addition to the advice of the Berg employee I worked with, a good friend had SH heads in his Thing built by "Boston Bob" in the 90's. Still going strong and runs great today. I am a bit flummoxed about it all, but am moving forward will report back.
We are in sync on creating a sticker with the advance to put on the fan shroud. When I am not in the garage I do graphic design (love Helvetica) so it would be fun to create something that appears original. Was also thinking of making my own air cleaner sticker with personal messaging (what, I don't know).
Rome wrote: |
Did you consider stepping up to 88 mm machine-in pistons/cylinders? Those would get you to 1679 cc and would only need the head machined for the larger outer diameter. The cylinder bases slip into the case. But for your build, your 85.5 will be fine, of course. |
Yes, I have been wanting to use the thick-wall 88's but in the end decided on stock. I was concerned with air flow. This engine is more like a 1970 and the decklids in '70 had additional vents. Someday, I may add them. But in the end, I have been quite happy with the previous three 1600 engines I've had.
Rome wrote: |
Will you send your original 1500 case out for a line bore so that you can rebuilt it as a spare? |
I will at some point. It is original to the car. My amateur case inspection did not find any cracks or show-stoppers. But I does need a line bore and thrust cut. _________________ 73 Westy
67 Zenith Blue Beetle Sedan
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a.marscapone Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2017 Posts: 107 Location: The Quiet Corner, CT
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Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:56 pm Post subject: Re: 1967 1500cc engine removal, evaluation and rebuild |
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"First" engine mockup done. I now see why you may need to do more than one. Some things I need to correct:
The distributor drive gear was riding too high due to the bendy clamp. Will fix and remeasure the play and fuel pump rod height.
I put the cam gear on wrong. When looking at the instructions - which are very simple - it was like I was reading them for the first time. So I don't now where my head was at when I installed it. I did not use locktite yet, so it will be an easy fix. I will also see if my local hardware store has something better than the grade 5 bolts.
I will be redoing the solid rocker shafts and swivel feet adjusters when I get the rocker arms back from the machinist. It should also be easier with the cam gear on correctly The super duper good news is that the cam, crank, rods and oil pump all rotate smoothly. Yay! Cam endplay is also on spec at .002" according to the instructions.
_________________ 73 Westy
67 Zenith Blue Beetle Sedan
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Busstom Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2014 Posts: 3838 Location: San Jose, CA
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Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:00 am Post subject: Re: 1967 1500cc engine removal, evaluation and rebuild |
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Are my eyes playing tricks on me, or is that a nyloc nut installed upside-down on the sump stud? If it is, I'm impressed, they're normally very difficult to install nylon-first.
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a.marscapone Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2017 Posts: 107 Location: The Quiet Corner, CT
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Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2021 7:11 am Post subject: Re: 1967 1500cc engine removal, evaluation and rebuild |
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Busstom wrote: |
...is that a nyloc nut installed upside-down on the sump stud? |
nope, just the nut that was already installed there...
I did test the oil pickup tube again, although rock-solid, I am getting a bit of air leaking when blown into the tube with the oil pump hole blocked off. Is this normal? How airtight should it be? _________________ 73 Westy
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a.marscapone Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2017 Posts: 107 Location: The Quiet Corner, CT
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Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 7:10 am Post subject: Re: 1967 1500cc engine removal, evaluation and rebuild |
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After reading just about every oil pickup tube thread I could find, the consensus is to replace the one that came with the case with a German-made one. Although way out of my comfort zone (like cutting bolts) it seems a common practice so I forged ahead. Happy to report:
Air-freakin'-tight.
And fitting the oil strainer/screen is much less fiddly. I heated up the case a bit and used locktite 518. It is not perfectly centered, but way better than the one the case came with.
Most of this locktite ended up squeezed out of the hole and I was able to clean it out of the case. The end of the tube is a tight fit all the way in. The original pickup tube had a gap around where it exited the hole.
_________________ 73 Westy
67 Zenith Blue Beetle Sedan
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a.marscapone Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2017 Posts: 107 Location: The Quiet Corner, CT
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Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 7:19 am Post subject: Re: 1967 1500cc engine removal, evaluation and rebuild |
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Honed cylinders and heads with valve grinding compound (ala John Muir), then thorough scrub and clean.
_________________ 73 Westy
67 Zenith Blue Beetle Sedan
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a.marscapone Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2017 Posts: 107 Location: The Quiet Corner, CT
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Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 7:28 am Post subject: Re: 1967 1500cc engine removal, evaluation and rebuild |
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Bought grade 8 bolts and washers for the cam gear. Could not find the correct length so I used my newly-aquired bolt-cutting skills.
_________________ 73 Westy
67 Zenith Blue Beetle Sedan
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a.marscapone Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2017 Posts: 107 Location: The Quiet Corner, CT
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:34 am Post subject: Re: 1967 1500cc engine removal, evaluation and rebuild |
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Went with bugguy1967's services - https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1925154 - and had my rocker arms, blocks and spacers machined. Tabari is awesome to work with and had great advice. For example it was hard to get the proper spacing with the shims and the rocker blocks and he advised me to insert feeler guages on each side of the block as I torqued down the rocker arms. Worked brilliantly!
I did three complete longblock mockups. I had screwed up installing the distributor drive shaft, it was 180 degrees off. I know how to install it and have done it many times, but when checking the valves, I could tell it was completely off. I marked it with a dab of white paint on the small end so will be more careful on final assembly. _________________ 73 Westy
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a.marscapone Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2017 Posts: 107 Location: The Quiet Corner, CT
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Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:02 pm Post subject: Re: 1967 1500cc engine removal, evaluation and rebuild |
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Not happy with the big gap between the pully tin and the case. It is about twice as big as with the original 1500 case. With the old engine I would get exhaust smell at idle even tho I replaced all the seals and had all the tin in place. So I thought I'd make a gasket out of a silicone sheet meant for a bbq grill. This is intended to be one piece for the top flat part of the tin and down behind the pully.
Gappy pully tin
Making the template
Fitting to the case and final trimming
Mocked up with tin in place
_________________ 73 Westy
67 Zenith Blue Beetle Sedan
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a.marscapone Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2017 Posts: 107 Location: The Quiet Corner, CT
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Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:13 am Post subject: Re: 1967 1500cc engine removal, evaluation and rebuild |
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Final mantling (fingers crossed!) has begun.
Intereir case componets in place
Case sealed with Permatex 3H, 1970 oil cooler mounted with 10mm gaskets
Assembled pistons and cylinders prior to installation
CB performance stainlesss windage tubes, very sturdy
_________________ 73 Westy
67 Zenith Blue Beetle Sedan
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a.marscapone Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2017 Posts: 107 Location: The Quiet Corner, CT
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Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:30 am Post subject: Re: 1967 1500cc engine removal, evaluation and rebuild |
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Had some issues with the intake manifold. While it looked like it seated ok, I as paranoid that the metal intake gasket did not crush all the way. Thought I should undo it and check the gaskets since I had another pair. Also the threads on one of the heads stripped at the top, so I cut a bolt with threads about 4mm longer to get a better grip on the nut.
Intake gasket with decent crush compared to unuse
Longer stud on the rigtht. If and when the heads come out I will replace the rest with slightly longer ones
_________________ 73 Westy
67 Zenith Blue Beetle Sedan
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a.marscapone Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2017 Posts: 107 Location: The Quiet Corner, CT
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Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:41 pm Post subject: Re: 1967 1500cc engine removal, evaluation and rebuild |
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I scored an NOS Leistritz muffler, bracket and gasket kits from Dave at Bugcity.com. I also had in my stash two stainless steel brackets from vintagespeed, the quality is excellent and comparable to NOS, these also have a larger side and smaller side for mounting, like NOS.
The NOS muffler weighs 11 lbs. The aftermarket muffler it is replacing weighs 10 lbs. The peashooter mounts are beefier and the crimped flanges are thicker. the manifold vacuum port or whatever it is called is clearly visiblie in the peashooter hole, but not in the aftermarke version.
While I did not have issues with the aftermarke fit, probably because the PO installed it, I did have to widen the mounting holes on the NOS muffler to fit the engine. This engine is slightly slimmer, and the aftermarket muffler would have needed adjusting as well. However the manifold connections lined up nicely as did the pre-heater boxes to the heater boxes.
I also stripped the factory primer off and did 3 coats of POR 15 high heat paint.
NOS front
No visible vacuum tube in aftermaket
Tube visible in NOS version
Stripped and ready for paint
And mounted
_________________ 73 Westy
67 Zenith Blue Beetle Sedan
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tasb The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002 Posts: 6371 Location: Pentwater, Michigan
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Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:27 pm Post subject: Re: 1967 1500cc engine removal, evaluation and rebuild |
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Those are manifold heat risers and they are frequently blocked and if re-using the manifold should be checked as they become carbon blocked with use.
The distributor clamp only needs ten foot pounds of torque. Excessive tightening bends the clamp preventing the distributor from fully seating. _________________ Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018
1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc
1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse |
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Pruneman99 Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2012 Posts: 5013 Location: Oceanside
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Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:22 am Post subject: Re: 1967 1500cc engine removal, evaluation and rebuild |
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You might want to chamfer the top threads just a little so its easier to get the nut started on that longer stud you cut for the intake. |
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