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Bug53 Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2021 Posts: 704 Location: Pawcatuck, CT.
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Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:56 pm Post subject: Has anyone had trouble setting up Kadrons? |
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Got a long awaited Plug & Play set-up from a very reputable supplier with decades of experience.
They were built to suit my particular engine:
1600DP
Stock cam
Extractor exhaust
SVDA distributor.
Did the install, and the engine pops, cracks, backfires, and acts like it had a grand vacuum leak.
Re-did the whole install including flattening the manifold surfaces on a flat plate with 220 grit. Re-checked the linkage, all is perfect.
Still doing the snap, crackle pop from just off idle all the way up thru mid-range.
Re-did install third time. New gaskets, flattening, linkage re-check, and this time I installed an 009 in place of the Pertronix SVDA as well as had the top of the carbs off, checked the inlet filters, blew out the idle circuits.
Guess what? Still snap, crackle pop. It runs like it's completely out of timing whereas it's not. Even checked the TDC for No.1 with valve cover off.
The supplier and I have been in contact several times and neither of us can quite understand this.
I am leaning towards the possibility that they were built for a different set-up and shipped to me accidently. it could be possible but I'm not really buying it.
What are we missing here? |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12701 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:52 am Post subject: Re: Has anyone had trouble setting up Kadrons? |
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My gut feeling is that they are not synchronized properly. _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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txoval Samba Member
Joined: January 23, 2004 Posts: 3553 Location: The Woodlands, TX
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Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:58 am Post subject: Re: Has anyone had trouble setting up Kadrons? |
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Linkage not setup properly and the carbs are opening at different rates
popping thru carbs? If so, your idle jets are lean (hard to believe on a stock engine)
As said above, if your sync at idle is off, they will never be in sync while opening |
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54bug Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2011 Posts: 142 Location: WashingtonDC
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Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:26 am Post subject: Re: Has anyone had trouble setting up Kadrons? |
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Bug53
I've been there and some patience will be needed. It took me a while to get it right, with the help of a few folks here at "TheSamba". I had a set of NOS Kadrons that I sent to Kaddy Shack. They are installed on a 1776 Dual Port with CB Performance Panchito (Large Valve heads), running with a W110 cam, header exhaust and an 009 distributor. Seems more complicated than your setup.
Kaddy Shack does acceptable work, has good directions, but removes the jet size markings on their "plug and play" products. Kaddy Shack also changed my Venturi from 28 mm to 30 mm, an additional variable.
Some of this is thinking like an engineer. The guidance I got from Kaddy Shack when it didn't work was not helpful. They disagreed with the Gene Berg guidance on engine building. I have another car with Kadrons that runs good... I disagreed with their opinions. Lots of info, and not all of it fit together.
My thoughts on where to start, and the way I should have done it:
1) Clean up the Kadron intake castings and replace all the gaskets.
The Intake manifolds did not match the heads on my castings. I used a bit of modling clay and a Dremel grinder to fix that. I also smoothed the insides of the castings and setup the balance tube that runs between the manifolds.
2) Read the Kaddy Shack instructions on Installation and setup. It's a good starting point. This allowed me to get the basic setup done. Lots of opinions and guidance from books, individuals, and websites... but set them up
3) Check over your engine. Valves set right. Distributor vacuum mechanism working, Good Vacuum line and balance tube, Timing right, good fuel filter, etc. Work to remove other variables in the equation. Do you have a timng light, might be a good time to get one.
4) Start it, check it, and drive it. Mine idled fine and ran only at WOT (Wide open Throttle). It was Terrible and disappointing. Back to the Samba
5) Measure the Jet's you have. I used a set of numerical drill set and digital Micrometer. Now You know what you were sold. Since you have a Stock 1600 DP, you should have stock Idle jets, what size mains? Keep in mind you are pro
6) So the engine is running, the timing is correct and you know the size of the main jets. Post on the samba, and read for a couple of days. Collect the suggestions and plan the likely new jet sizes. By the Jets or a set of jets, not expensive, but bothersome. Do you need a Jet gauge, or are you comfortable with the drills and micrometer. Measure the length of the Accelerator pump linkage.
7) You have a plan, some jets and some time ( hopefully minimal distractions) Write your plan for changing jets down, and make small changes. Check timing before driving. Set the Idle mixture and speed with the warm engine. Drive it again.
Did it work better? did it Idle well, is there a flat spot, stumble, when make small adjustments to the pedal, at speed? Is there a flat spot when you use larger adjustments to the pedal. You can hide flat spots with more accelerator pump... Change and measure. Do you need to change the Jets again
9) Repeat, and note improvements. I gotta write these down on my "Plan." Hopefully you get good results, it may take a couple of changes, but the pattern of what works is on the paper with your notes.
10) If all fails go back to the samba and ask again. I got to this step and got a suggestion on reducing the Idle jet size and a starting point for main jet sizes was helpful. Took several attempts to get it right.
Now it's great. Should be easier with a more "stock" engine. Good luck, keep the faith, none of this is "rocket science"
Scott |
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Chad M Samba Member
Joined: July 14, 2003 Posts: 723 Location: Alberta
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Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:47 am Post subject: Re: Has anyone had trouble setting up Kadrons? |
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Good advice '54!
Just because you've done 3 times, doesn't mean you've done it correctly the first time. We all have the times where we've checked, double checked and things just weren't working correctly. I like the suggestion of walking away from it and reading up about it. Coming back with fresh eyes and some new information will likely yield some success.
If you're using the Kadron linkage, you might consider trying one of the other styles. I found the Skat linkage affordable and much more precise than the 30 year old Kadron stuff I was trying to make work.
Last edited by Chad M on Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Bug53 Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2021 Posts: 704 Location: Pawcatuck, CT.
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Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:42 am Post subject: Re: Has anyone had trouble setting up Kadrons? |
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Chad M wrote: |
Good advice '54!
Just because you've done 3 times, doesn't mean you've done it correctly the first time. We all have the times where we've checked, double checked and things just weren't working correctly. I like the suggestion of walking away from it and reading up about it. Coming back with fresh eyes and some new information will likely yield some success.
If you're using the Kadron linkage, you might consider trying one of the other styles. I found the Skat linkage affordable and much more precise than the 30 Kadron stuff I was trying to make work. |
It's really basic mechanics.
I agree the linkage must be right so I have painstakingly done it the recommended way three times.
Linkage is the optional Heim Joint linkage Kaddy Shack offers. |
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Bug53 Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2021 Posts: 704 Location: Pawcatuck, CT.
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Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:47 am Post subject: Re: Has anyone had trouble setting up Kadrons? |
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Quote: |
: Measure the Jet's you have. I used a set of numerical drill set and digital Micrometer. Now You know what you were sold. Since you have a Stock 1600 DP, you should have stock Idle jets, what size mains? Keep in mind you are pro
Scott |
The fun part is that they sand off the jet numbers to keep their work a secret.
As you say jets can be measured. |
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Danwvw Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012 Posts: 8892 Location: Oregon Coast
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Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:56 am Post subject: Re: Has anyone had trouble setting up Kadrons? |
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I don't have any experience with Kadrons but if they were Solex I'd say the Float Level is low or the Idle Jet is too lean or the venturi's too big or you have a serious vacuum leak. Check Fuel Pressure. _________________ 1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
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AlteWagen Troll
Joined: February 23, 2007 Posts: 8501 Location: PNW
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Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:51 am Post subject: Re: Has anyone had trouble setting up Kadrons? |
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I worked on a set of KS carbs with the same issue. Took a bit of head scratching but ended up being clogged progression ports on one of the throttle bodies. Idle fine, WOT fine, rice krispies anywhere in between. Even though the TBs get rebuilt make sure to check all the ports as they only test pump shot and the carbs are not pre run.
You probably have stock kadron jets at 55/130. Ive had better luck with 52/125 with the stock venturi.
Also make sure to check that petronix as Ive seen a few dozen now with excessive mechanical advance out of the box. Even though kadrons do not pull enough vacuum through the added port to activate the stiff vacuum can on the petronix you can still be running in the 40* advance without the vacuum even kicking in. _________________ Grapes of Wrath $200 Engine Rebuild
Official Dual Carb Thread
Cylinder Head Quick Reference Sheet |
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Bug53 Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2021 Posts: 704 Location: Pawcatuck, CT.
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Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: Has anyone had trouble setting up Kadrons? |
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Update:
It’s a bit better but still pops out of the right carb while throttle is midway.
Going to take it off, take it apart and blow it out real good. |
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Bug53 Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2021 Posts: 704 Location: Pawcatuck, CT.
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Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:40 pm Post subject: Re: Has anyone had trouble setting up Kadrons? |
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54bug wrote: |
Bug53
5) Measure the Jet's you have. I used a set of numerical drill set and digital Micrometer. Now You know what you were sold. Since you have a Stock 1600 DP, you should have stock Idle jets, what size mains? Keep in mind you are pro
Scott |
What are measurements in relation to jet numerical size.
Is a 125 jet the same as .0125 mm? |
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Mikedrevguy Samba Member
Joined: October 15, 2008 Posts: 2237 Location: Medford, OR
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Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:02 pm Post subject: Re: Has anyone had trouble setting up Kadrons? |
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How’s fuel pressure? _________________ 74 1303 (RevBug): plan for German Look
76 914 with 2260
79 VW Iltis
69 Bwajaja
"The wise speak because they have something to say; while the foolish speak because they have to say something." Plato
Illigitimi non-Carborundum!! |
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Chad M Samba Member
Joined: July 14, 2003 Posts: 723 Location: Alberta
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Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:05 pm Post subject: Re: Has anyone had trouble setting up Kadrons? |
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Bug53 wrote: |
54bug wrote: |
Bug53
5) Measure the Jet's you have. I used a set of numerical drill set and digital Micrometer. Now You know what you were sold. Since you have a Stock 1600 DP, you should have stock Idle jets, what size mains? Keep in mind you are pro
Scott |
What are measurements in relation to jet numerical size.
Is a 125 jet the same as .0125 mm? |
1.25mm |
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Bug53 Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2021 Posts: 704 Location: Pawcatuck, CT.
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Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:23 pm Post subject: Re: Has anyone had trouble setting up Kadrons? |
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Took the carb off, stripped it, gave it a warm ultrasonic bath, re-installed.
Tomorrow will either be the day of success or I’ll be calling for a label to return this carb for an exchange. Considerable money spent and a four month wait and now I’m at around 24 hours into trying to remedy the problem.
If it doesn’t run right tomorrow it’s going back where it came from to be remedied so I can start over from there.
Last edited by Bug53 on Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7537 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:53 pm Post subject: Re: Has anyone had trouble setting up Kadrons? |
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It can end up being a whole lot of little things adding up sometimes.
Sticky vacuum advance, exhaust and/or intake leaks, linkage not tipping in both sides evenly.. On and on..
Keep checking all the basics, timing, valve adjustment, etc.
When it’s all done and the carbs are all that’s left,
There’s the float level, pump squirt, idle speed and mixture,
Then checking the jets, also the air jet at the top of the emulsion tube.
Get some jet gauges and at least make sure the jets are all ballpark and the same side-to-side.
My vote goes to a bunch of little things adding up.
Happened to me more than once. _________________ Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
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Lingwendil Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009 Posts: 3988 Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:14 pm Post subject: Re: Has anyone had trouble setting up Kadrons? |
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If it's from kaddie shack or AJ they are often jetted pig rich with reamed jets, and can be a pain to tune. Also, the linkage that comes with them can be tricky to set well. You may need to loosen the carb to manifold bolts and twist the carb this way or that, and re-tighten to get the carbs at the same angle, then spend a good bit of time synchronizing the linkage to get it just right. It helps to use scat or CSP type linkage to get them set correctly.
Kadrons are great carbs and very simple, not much that needs done on a fresh set other than good linkage setup. It can be nerve wracking at first. _________________ 73 super beetle thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=649622 Back on the Road!
Modify your Kadrons for SVDA http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8115884#8115884
Cast iron VJU4BR8 SVDA reference thread- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
Need replacement filters for original Kadron aircleaners? WIX #42087 is a perfect fit, as is Napa Gold #2087! |
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Bug53 Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2021 Posts: 704 Location: Pawcatuck, CT.
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Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:37 pm Post subject: Re: Has anyone had trouble setting up Kadrons? |
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Lingwendil wrote: |
If it's from kaddie shack or AJ they are often jetted pig rich with reamed jets, and can be a pain to tune. Also, the linkage that comes with them can be tricky to set well. You may need to loosen the carb to manifold bolts and twist the carb this way or that, and re-tighten to get the carbs at the same angle, then spend a good bit of time synchronizing the linkage to get it just right. It helps to use scat or CSP type linkage to get them set correctly.
Kadrons are great carbs and very simple, not much that needs done on a fresh set other than good linkage setup. It can be nerve wracking at first. |
If Pig Rich means my eyes are watering like standing behind a Nitromethane top fueler then YES. It is pig rich and of course these jets are "top secret" with the numbers sanded off. Anyone with a number size drill index can easily measure them tough. |
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Bug53 Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2021 Posts: 704 Location: Pawcatuck, CT.
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Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 5:55 pm Post subject: Re: Has anyone had trouble setting up Kadrons? |
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Still popping and farting at easy cruise and light throttle.
Back to the drawing board. |
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Rome Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2004 Posts: 9640 Location: Pearl River, NY
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Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:05 pm Post subject: Re: Has anyone had trouble setting up Kadrons? |
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Double-check that the spark plug wires to each side of the engine are going to their intended plugs... If 2 are crossed at the head, the engine barely accelerates. Easy to miss while installing; easy to check. |
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Frank Bassman Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2012 Posts: 893 Location: Miami
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Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:45 pm Post subject: Re: Has anyone had trouble setting up Kadrons? |
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I used to run dual PDSITs which are basically a miniature kadron. I had an annoying off idle stumble that would drive me nuts when I bought them. The fix was 60 idles. With 28 mm vents the mains actually became 150s or 155s. ( I don't remember) from what I have read actual kadrons require much less main than PDSITs. I do not know why.
Plugs were unbelievably clean. Great performance then. I had them re bushed and may choose to go back... but I digress.
One thing that was peculiar is that the transition slot would have been too far open had I not drilled a tiny bleed hole on the plates. I wonder if you have the opposite problem and the T slots are actually well below the plate and you have a "dead zone"... funny I had the same issue on a 450 cfm carb on 318 dodge and I took a dremel to the t slots to lengthen... problem gone.
Easiest way to know what jets you have is to buy a variety. I'd buy 50, 52, 55, 60 idles and 132 and135 mains.
Once sync is set WITH CARBS' THROTTLE STOP take em off and see if both T slots are the same.
-Frank |
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