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Alan Brase
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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 Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:24 pm Post subject: Re: How much have you towed? |
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| Abscate wrote: |
| csebern wrote: |
| Abscate wrote: |
| That last picture is a tort lawyers wet dream. That’s grossly overloaded for that vehicle. |
I’m sorry but I’ve got to say it.
You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. |
I think I’ll rest my case here. Unbraked 3500+ trailer with a T3
| Quote: |
| The car trailer is aluminum and I’ve put a 3500lb car on it. It’s slow but it works. I don’t have a trailer brake controller but I will be installing one soon. |
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Well, of course you are right. Pretty much ALL STATE LAWS say any towed load over 1500lb needs to be braked.
I also have serious doubts as the the ling term integrity of a trailer hitch that bolts to the tow loops.
Having said that I also towed home a Vanagon with another vanagon. Only 300 miles but it was a very white knuckle experience. The 2.1 WBX would pull the load over flat elevation just fine, but WOULD NOT STOP.
If I were to make a practice of this, I would invest in a Brake Buddy or some other towed vehicle brake applier.
Incidentally I have flat towed vehicles all over the US. Probably over 10k miles. But it really helps if the tow vehicle is about 1.5-2 times the mass. So a 3/4 ton US truck is easy.
_________________
Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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DuncanS
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4583
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:06 am Post subject: Re: How much have you towed? |
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| csebern wrote: |
| 4Gears4Tires wrote: |
| What's the functional difference in load on the trans between carrying 1000lbs of gear in the van and 1000lbs of gear behind the van? |
Nothing. The transmission sees the same load regardless. |
Not true. There is the additional drag from the trailer itself. If the axle is not quite true then there is also crabbing drag. Windage and rolling friction will add to the tranny load. A tintop is supposed to have a curb weight of 3650. A Westy stock without a full load of around 4400. If you add goodies, bikes and swing out stuff, 5500 is not inconceivable. So a delta between the two of 1800 pounds. How many Westys have had a STDS? If it were a problem we would be hearing about it all over the forum and VW would have addressed the issue. So why did my three year old tintop have a tranny failure at 50k miles after pulling 1700 pounds?
I think the tranny knows the difference even without a backup camera to let it be able to see it.
All this boils down to what economic risk are you willing to take to tow something? It's up to each of us individually and no amount of verbiage will resolve this issue.
Do what you want, but above all have fun.
Duncan |
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Alan Brase
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:15 pm Post subject: Re: How much have you towed? |
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| Sodo wrote: |
| dart330 wrote: |
| Sorry I misinterpreted "standard" as "stock" not manual transmission. |
“They say” the Auto trans is touger than the manual trans.
That could be true. 💪🏼💪🏼
At 180F your mainshaft bearing is loose in its bore.
If you are driving at 180F, miles are flying out the window.
How about hours and hours like that?
Can you envision a big hairy drain plug?
It’s wearing the mainshaft bearing bore larger, reducing your tow capacity further.
Its also wearing the “bearing hold-down” allowing input shaft axial movement. Which is another bummer.
When the bore becomes loose, the bearings cannot transfer heat (to its bore and thus to the outer case), so the mainshaft bearing gets hotter.
When the bore grows (by heat temporarily and by wear permanently), the shafts push apart, which causes sliding at the gear faces rather than ‘rolling contact’. Which causes more heat and more wear. And a hotter trans.
...
Towing is a higher duty cycle, similar to driving at higher sustained speeds of bigger engines.
The candle that burns brighter cannot last as long.
But ya gotta get the value you want from your vehicle.
... an F150 is a low-level tow vehicle rated for 11,000 lbs.
But its no fun camping in an F150 so it depends a lot on what you do when tou get there.
But just “towing”?
No thanks.
I’ve seen inside Vanagon transmissions snd I’ve seen the invoices too. |
Yeah well that is true, BUT
The Vanagon 091/1 trans is an evolution of the 002 that was basically a 1967 design with a few major improvements over the years thru 091 designation in 8/1975 and then the 091/1 version with the welded shift forks coming onto the scene mid year 1983.
ALMOST ZERO improvements since then for a trans that was built for an 85hp 1.9 WBX.
How could this possibly go wrong 40 years later with modern 200 hp engines? These damned things failed after 150k miles used with the 1.9 WBX.
EVERYTHING is just undersized.
First Vanagon trans I took apart was a 1987 that I'd bought from my brother who bought it new. It had 90k miles and one of the welded shift forks broke.
I've done hundreds of manual trans repairs from 1935 IH trucks to Dagenham (Ford early 6 cylinder) 4 speeds, lots of T10s, Porsche 644,741,901, 915. So I figured I'd dig in.
Lucky I found Rick Long with that first try. He warned about the known failure of the 3/4 hub. Sure enough, even at 90k miles it was cracked in 3 parts.
Done LOTS of them (and 094's) since 1996 and EVERY SINGLE one was failing where Sodo mentioned, The mainshaft bearing/ intermediate bore AND the nose cone containing the thrust generated by the helix angle all just WAY TOO WEAKLY engineered. Add a further load to the front end of the pinion shaft (Syncro) and the problems (and repair cost) just go up a lot.
I've followed "Old Man"'s struggle to build a good gearbox for his Diesel Doka conversion and what he has now built makes good sense.
I'd actually like to see the Main Shaft bearing in a STEEL intermediate plate. Billet Aluminum might be good enough if the right alloy and hardness. Have you ever seen a New Process 5 or 6 speed apart? Like they use on Cummins powered pickup trucks?
The real answer is a stronger transaxle. I somewhere read that European diesel T3 guys were using a Citroen ? Big van gearbox? Think, like a Sprinter 2500, but FWD. Probably not a single one exists in the US, tho.
Incidentally that 1987 trans I rebuilt in 1996 was still working when I last drove it in about 2014. Still have it, tho.
Thanks, Rick Long.
Towing? Hell yes. tow your 2000lb boat. But drive a little slowly, like 55-60mph. Your gearbox will thank you.
_________________
Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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0to60in6min
Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2006
Posts: 3416
Location: OR & CA (Oregon/California)
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| Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: How much have you towed? |
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I have an Aluma 548 trailer, 350 lbs empty, I towed with my 1990 tintop 2.1... about 1100 lbs total loaded with stuff when we moved from California to Oregon, 950 miles. The 2.1 was doing an OK job.... on flat road of course... 
Same trailer at work hauling firewood with the Doka.
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DuncanS
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4583
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:58 am Post subject: Re: How much have you towed? |
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| Am I seeing coniferous wood there? Lots of needley looking twigs and a branch. But also some wilted leaves. Hope you are not going to add pine creosote to your chimney next year when the wood is finally dry. I know it's tough to get hardwood out there. |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22641
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:55 am Post subject: Re: How much have you towed? |
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We have a C4 party each fall to remove the creosote from our cabin chimney. It’s a blast!
_________________
.ssS! |
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DuncanS
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4583
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:42 am Post subject: Re: How much have you towed? |
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Heat or just fire viewing with wine and Mozart?
My parents built a house in the Connecticut woods and we burned only dry oak in an open fireplace. After 6 or 7 years there was a chimney fire. Unbelievable. My father tried to put it out by blocking the opening with a card table. A masonite top and the suction just blew through and destroyed the masonite. The fire coming out the top looked like a jet engine as the flames shot 20' into the night sky. A solid masonry interior fireplace with no wood near the chimney stack. Asbestos shingles on the roof. Burned itself out after about 15 minutes. Fire department too far away. Nothing happened. It may have cracked the tiles, but there was never another problem.
Wood stoves are another matter altogether.
D |
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syncro surf
Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2017
Posts: 189
Location: Maine
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| Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:14 am Post subject: Re: How much have you towed? |
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| MaxVanagon wrote: |
As I don't know anything, which is why I'm asking, from what I'm reading, to tow up to a 1,990 pound trailer with a 1.9L engine, the stuff I'm looking at:
1. transmission
are these parts of the transmission?????:
a. 3/4 slider
b. hub
c. bearings
d. gear oil
2. transaxle
Should I be looking at a new transmission, a new transaxle, both? |
Just to back up and make sure the OP gets some basics answered - In this case, transmission and transaxle refer to the same thing. VW transmissions are technically transaxles, we often call them transmissions. The 3/4 slider hub and bearings are transmission parts that will be replaced when you have the trans rebuilt.
Depending upon your odometer, a transmission rebuild is something that you most likely need to do anyway whether you tow or not. After that, the rest of this thread will help you decide how much you want to tow and for how long  |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32586
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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4Gears4Tires
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2018
Posts: 3024
Location: MD
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:35 am Post subject: Re: How much have you towed? |
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| djkeev wrote: |
| After over five decades of driving........ towing is bad for a car or truck....... period. |
So is driving.
Best to keep the van in a temp controlled hermetically sealed bubble filled with argon, right?
_________________
'87 Syncro
Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition |
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