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Newbie 73 Beetle top end engine rebuild
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67jackr
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:58 am    Post subject: Newbie 73 Beetle top end engine rebuild Reply with quote

Hello all, I recently bought a 73 beetle in pretty rough shape and have started learning to work on these cars as I go. The engine was running in the car albeit not great so this past week I pulled it and have been stripping the thing down to the block to clean everything and see what work it needed. I pulled the heads off today and found this. I assume the best course of action now would be to buy a new set of cylinders and pistons? Or would there be any salvaging of what’s there? I do also think it might be worth noting the amount of rust on the rocker assemblies which I also plan on replacing. I’m fairly new to working on cars this in depth, especially vw’s, so any help would be appreciated.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:02 am    Post subject: Re: Newbie 73 Beetle top end engine rebuild Reply with quote

I went through something similar a few years back where I started with the intention of only cleaning things up on the top end. The advice most folks on here gave me, and that I subscribe to as well, is that if you believe the top end needs rebuilding it is wisest to go through the bottom end as well...you don't want to freshen up the top end and then have a weakened/unmatched bottom end that gives you problems later on.

I followed this advice and rebuilt from the bottom up and do not regret it. I also found I had a cracked head in the mix so had to buy new heads as well. I am sure others will chime in. I will admit at first I resisted this approach as I didn't want to spend the money and it did slow me down as I had to save more cash to do the job right, but retrospectively, it was the best move. Hope this helps.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Newbie 73 Beetle top end engine rebuild Reply with quote

Yeah, I’m very hesitant to split the case for all the same reasons you mentioned. As of right now I’m planning on getting new 85.5 mm pistons/cylinders from jbugs and rebuilding the heads. I’ve been considering doing a basic “rebuild” of the bottom end per altewagons post here. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...757220d6be
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Newbie 73 Beetle top end engine rebuild Reply with quote

Have you gotten the Bentley manual? This manual has almost every thing you need to know about the VW bug and Ghia.

Also welcome to the hobby and have fun.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Newbie 73 Beetle top end engine rebuild Reply with quote

see all that black carbon on the very edge of the cylinder it is there because the head was loose. check the end play for the crank as it will tell you if the lower end needs attention. if it is way out of spec then its going to cost you big time.
as a beginner this book was very helpful.

https://www.amazon.com/VW-Air-Cooled-Engines-How-R...9529368716
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67jackr
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Newbie 73 Beetle top end engine rebuild Reply with quote

Right now I have the factory service manual and the John Muir vw book. He has some good stuff in it about doing some basic wear checks without splitting the case so I’ll mostly likely be doing that soon. I’ve heard quite a bit about checking end play. What’s the best way to measure it?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Newbie 73 Beetle top end engine rebuild Reply with quote

"stevebaz" is giving good advice here although with luck it won't cost much more to do the bottom end. Depends on the case. But looking at the photos makes me think it has a lot of miles on it. Usually the bottom end in a 73 dual port gets hammered out and they need an alignbore that it will need to be sent to a good VW Engine Machine shop to have done. A good shop will tell you if the case is good or not. You can tell if you do some plastigage testing but probably need the machined crank with new bearings ready to check it right. Generally speaking if there is any side play in the flywheel main bearing the case will need align boring. Often there is a lot of end play in an old aircooled vw engine that will require a oversized main thrust cut to be done as part of the align bore. A good shop can make sure you get the right bearings for what they do, often they provide the main bearings. Typically the rod's get resized and rebushed.
Pistons and Cylinders usually get replaced. Today most of us are just getting new heads although if the old heads are not cracked they can be rebuilt. Also if the spark plug threads are stripped it's better to get new heads. There are a couple of good advantages to getting new Heads.
1. You can get heads which have a 3/4" reach spark plug hole which is longer and doesn't get stripped out.
2. You can specify the new heads to be cut for larger bore cylinders. The 88mm Thick Wall will make a stock 1600cc engine ie 1585cc's with 85.5cc cylinders into a 1679cc engine and the cylinders are thicker than the originals. But you need the 90.5-92mm specification heads for them. The heads referenced above also will need to be set to about 53cc chambers for the correct or better compression, as that is what the original VW heads were, If sticking with the original cylinder size or the 88's. If you went with a 92 or 94 Bore cylinders and pistons then the heads above with 60cc compression chamber would be about right.

There probably is nothing at all wrong with the old Rockers in fact the steel quality in them is probably better than replacement rockers. I would get a good Solid Shaft for them though and run some good quality Swivel Elephant Feet or ball Adjusters
Other machine work to consider is
Flywheel Resurface,
Crankshaft Balance,
Lifter Bore incerts,
Case plugs removed and passages cleaned and then tapped for threaded plugs,
Full Flow Oiling, (If your serious about a vw aircooled engine living a normal long life it needs an Oil Filter!)
Either way whatever you decide it will be a fun experience. I Hope Your case is good! Best of luck!

.
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Rome
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Newbie 73 Beetle top end engine rebuild Reply with quote

Don't give up on those rocker assemblies: I'm confident you can clean them up. Here's a pair (one side shown) from a freebie 1500 seized engine I received several years ago:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I removed the rocker assembly and put it into a small aluminum tin of white vinegar overnight. You can get even better results with Evapo-Rust which I've also tried. You'll see small bubbles develop from the chemical reaction:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Next day I cleaned off the rust with an old toothbrush-
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Disassembled, bench grinder wire-wheel cleaned everything and used a plumber's cone-shaped wire brush to run through the rocker arm center bores. Also polished the rocker shaft with 400 grit-
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Finished, with a coating of oil for rust protection. After the photo I put the assembly into a zip-loc baggie until I get to the engine "some day".
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

After cleaning/degreasing your valve springs, inspect them closely. If you see even a single rust crater on one of the windings, replace the spring. Rust will weaken the spring, and with its repeated compression/expansion motion, fatigue will inevitably break the spring at the rust spot.
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OTTO 1303
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Newbie 73 Beetle top end engine rebuild Reply with quote

If you are on a budget, you can try honing the cylinders and if ring gaps checkout, reuse the rings, they should reseat on a fresh crosshatch of cylinder wall.
Of course, you would also inspect pistons and smooth any scuffs in skirts.
Clean ring grooves.
Inspect valve seats and lap if necessary.
Just keep everything matched up.
Clean and inspect.

If you are in for a full rebuild, as suggested above, rebuild top and bottom, don't do half.
A worn bottom end could damage any new parts you put on the top end, then you are back to square one.

Good luck
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Newbie 73 Beetle top end engine rebuild Reply with quote

OTTO 1303 wrote:
If you are on a budget, you can try honing the cylinders and if ring gaps checkout, reuse the rings, they should reseat on a fresh crosshatch of cylinder wall.
Of course, you would also inspect pistons and smooth any scuffs in skirts.
Clean ring grooves.
Inspect valve seats and lap if necessary.
Just keep everything matched up.
Clean and inspect.

If you are in for a full rebuild, as suggested above, rebuild top and bottom, don't do half.
A worn bottom end could damage any new parts you put on the top end, then you are back to square one.

Good luck


I’ve actually been soaking the rocker assemblies in white vinegar to see if I could use them. I don’t have a huge budget right now and am saving money where I can. I wasn’t sure I would be able to salvage the pistons and cylinders since they looked so bad but if I’d be able to use them that would be great. If I could get the the engine freshened up and some basic tlc and then at some point in the next few years, give it a proper rebuild when I have a little more money, that would be ideal.
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Rome
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:54 am    Post subject: Re: Newbie 73 Beetle top end engine rebuild Reply with quote

OTTO 1303 wrote:
If you are on a budget, you can try honing the cylinders and if ring gaps checkout, reuse the rings, they should reseat on a fresh crosshatch of cylinder wall.
Of course, you would also inspect pistons and smooth any scuffs in skirts.
Clean ring grooves.
Inspect valve seats and lap if necessary.
Just keep everything matched up.
Clean and inspect.

If you are in for a full rebuild, as suggested above, rebuild top and bottom, don't do half.
A worn bottom end could damage any new parts you put on the top end, then you are back to square one.

2 other activities to add to these comments:
a. In this photo, we are looking at cylinder #2 which is the one at right rear of the engine, since you can see the crank pulley at far left. After honing the cylinder to reduce that worn area along the bottom, you could turn that cylinder "upside-down" so that the worn area is now at the top. Put that cylinder & piston in position #3. Keep the piston that is matched to it, but rotate it half a turn. After you clean the carbon off the top of the piston using carburetor cleaner or solvent and a scrubbing pad, you'll see a small arrow stamped into the top of the piston surface. That arrow always has to point toward the flywheel, to account for a very small offset of the piston pin. When that piston was at cylinder #2, that arrow would point to the FW. Repositioning the assembly to cylinder #3, that arrow would point to the crank pulley so this is why you'd need to rotate it half turn for the arrow to now point to the FW.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

b. The uneven black soot along the cylinder outer edge, as already mentioned, is indicator that the head was loose against the cylinder. The normal "forced fit" from the cylinder studs and the fastening nuts between the head surface and the cylinder top was lost, thereby allowing combustion pressure to squeeze past. You can carefully lap the cylinder edge by holding it down against a smooth flat surface that has 220 wet, then 320 wet sandpaper attached. Use WD-40 as your lube fluid. You can check progress by looking that the black soot has disappeared, as well as that the very fine sanding marks go across the entire width of the cylinder edge all around the edge's circumference. Tedious and time-consuming work but it helps alot to improve what you have.

I made a simple tool for lapping, using a clipboard with the holding clip from a 2nd riveted to the base, a pane of either 12" or 10" mirror tile, and the sandpaper on top:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Another effort would be to take those edge-lapped cylinders and lap them into the head's combustion chambers. Use valve grinding compound spread around the cylinder edge circumference to do this. Set the cylinder in place into its designated combustion chamber, push down slightly, and rotate back and forth. You'll hear how the pitch of the friction from the grinding compound gets higher as the compound wears down into the head's aluminum. Since the cast iron cylinder is much harder than the head's aluminum, it won't take long to create a noticeable wear/lap pattern. After you hear the lapping pitch get higher and then stay consistent, lift and rotate the cylinder 1/4 turn and repeat. You are thereby spreading the lapping effort/pressing force evenly around the circumference.

After a few minutes, lift off the cylinder, wipe off the grey grinding compound residue from the head/spray off with brake cleaner, and inspect the head. You'll see a darker grey ring forming from your lapping work. Once that ring has uniform thickness all around the head, the lapping is completed. Rinse off the combustion chamber with hot water and a scrubbing brush. Do same with the cylinder edge, and immediately wipe some oil onto the edge so that it does not rust. You must be thorough with cleaning off the grinding compound, since if any gets into the cylinder or stays in the head, it will be an abrasive once the engine starts.

With all that effort of honing the cylinders and lapping the top edges plus the cost of the hone, you could imagine that your time would be worth the ca. $170 for a new set of 4 cylinders and pistons. If you do buy a new set of P&C, it's still advisable to designate them for your intended cylinder positions, and lap the cylinders to the heads for a better combustion seal.

For your heads: After disassembling several dozen heads in my VW hobby decades, most of the time the intake valves can be reused if there is no obvious damage to the seat surface, and the valve keeper grooves are not "mushroomed". But ALWAYS replace the exhaust valves. They are exposed to the extreme heat of the exhaust gases passing by them, and are much more likely to overheat or get weakened. Lap each valve to its seat with that same valve grinding compound.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Newbie 73 Beetle top end engine rebuild Reply with quote

One way to stop the oil leak that you had at the heads is to use new cylinder head washers and new nuts and Curl-T on them, the ones inside the valve cover the others don't matter.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Newbie 73 Beetle top end engine rebuild Reply with quote

Rome wrote:
OTTO 1303 wrote:
If you are on a budget, you can try honing the cylinders and if ring gaps checkout, reuse the rings, they should reseat on a fresh crosshatch of cylinder wall.
Of course, you would also inspect pistons and smooth any scuffs in skirts.
Clean ring grooves.
Inspect valve seats and lap if necessary.
Just keep everything matched up.
Clean and inspect.

If you are in for a full rebuild, as suggested above, rebuild top and bottom, don't do half.
A worn bottom end could damage any new parts you put on the top end, then you are back to square one.

2 other activities to add to these comments:
a. In this photo, we are looking at cylinder #2 which is the one at right rear of the engine, since you can see the crank pulley at far left. After honing the cylinder to reduce that worn area along the bottom, you could turn that cylinder "upside-down" so that the worn area is now at the top. Put that cylinder & piston in position #3. Keep the piston that is matched to it, but rotate it half a turn. After you clean the carbon off the top of the piston using carburetor cleaner or solvent and a scrubbing pad, you'll see a small arrow stamped into the top of the piston surface. That arrow always has to point toward the flywheel, to account for a very small offset of the piston pin. When that piston was at cylinder #2, that arrow would point to the FW. Repositioning the assembly to cylinder #3, that arrow would point to the crank pulley so this is why you'd need to rotate it half turn for the arrow to now point to the FW.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

b. The uneven black soot along the cylinder outer edge, as already mentioned, is indicator that the head was loose against the cylinder. The normal "forced fit" from the cylinder studs and the fastening nuts between the head surface and the cylinder top was lost, thereby allowing combustion pressure to squeeze past. You can carefully lap the cylinder edge by holding it down against a smooth flat surface that has 220 wet, then 320 wet sandpaper attached. Use WD-40 as your lube fluid. You can check progress by looking that the black soot has disappeared, as well as that the very fine sanding marks go across the entire width of the cylinder edge all around the edge's circumference. Tedious and time-consuming work but it helps alot to improve what you have.

I made a simple tool for lapping, using a clipboard with the holding clip from a 2nd riveted to the base, a pane of either 12" or 10" mirror tile, and the sandpaper on top:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Another effort would be to take those edge-lapped cylinders and lap them into the head's combustion chambers. Use valve grinding compound spread around the cylinder edge circumference to do this. Set the cylinder in place into its designated combustion chamber, push down slightly, and rotate back and forth. You'll hear how the pitch of the friction from the grinding compound gets higher as the compound wears down into the head's aluminum. Since the cast iron cylinder is much harder than the head's aluminum, it won't take long to create a noticeable wear/lap pattern. After you hear the lapping pitch get higher and then stay consistent, lift and rotate the cylinder 1/4 turn and repeat. You are thereby spreading the lapping effort/pressing force evenly around the circumference.

After a few minutes, lift off the cylinder, wipe off the grey grinding compound residue from the head/spray off with brake cleaner, and inspect the head. You'll see a darker grey ring forming from your lapping work. Once that ring has uniform thickness all around the head, the lapping is completed. Rinse off the combustion chamber with hot water and a scrubbing brush. Do same with the cylinder edge, and immediately wipe some oil onto the edge so that it does not rust. You must be thorough with cleaning off the grinding compound, since if any gets into the cylinder or stays in the head, it will be an abrasive once the engine starts.

With all that effort of honing the cylinders and lapping the top edges plus the cost of the hone, you could imagine that your time would be worth the ca. $170 for a new set of 4 cylinders and pistons. If you do buy a new set of P&C, it's still advisable to designate them for your intended cylinder positions, and lap the cylinders to the heads for a better combustion seal.

For your heads: After disassembling several dozen heads in my VW hobby decades, most of the time the intake valves can be reused if there is no obvious damage to the seat surface, and the valve keeper grooves are not "mushroomed". But ALWAYS replace the exhaust valves. They are exposed to the extreme heat of the exhaust gases passing by them, and are much more likely to overheat or get weakened. Lap each valve to its seat with that same valve grinding compound.


Okay so I think my plan right now is to remove all 4 cylinders and pistons to inspect and get them honed. What’s the best way to get the wrist pin out of the connecting rod without damaging the piston?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Newbie 73 Beetle top end engine rebuild Reply with quote

67jackr wrote:
What’s the best way to get the wrist pin out of the connecting rod without damaging the piston?

Remove the retaining clips. Set on a block of wood. Tap out the wrist pin using an appropriately-sized socket and an extension.


67jackr wrote:
Okay so I think my plan right now is to remove all 4 cylinders and pistons to inspect and get them honed.

I would get a NEW piston/cylinder/ring/wrist pin set.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:29 am    Post subject: Re: Newbie 73 Beetle top end engine rebuild Reply with quote

Cusser wrote:
67jackr wrote:
What’s the best way to get the wrist pin out of the connecting rod without damaging the piston?

Remove the retaining clips. Set on a block of wood. Tap out the wrist pin using an appropriately-sized socket and an extension.


67jackr wrote:
Okay so I think my plan right now is to remove all 4 cylinders and pistons to inspect and get them honed.

I would get a NEW piston/cylinder/ring/wrist pin set.


Okay so I’ve been debating whether or not to just buy new pistons/cylinders or try to salvage what I have but now I’ve got something else to consider. I’m not sure how well it will show up in the photo but on one head there is a crack from the right side of the spark plug hole.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Newbie 73 Beetle top end engine rebuild Reply with quote

That head is done for.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Newbie 73 Beetle top end engine rebuild Reply with quote

Something I would be concerned about is the fact that a couple of cylinder head studs have come out of the case. Hopefully the threads are solid. You may want to re-install them and test torque them. If they pull out, you need to have the case worked on anyway.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Newbie 73 Beetle top end engine rebuild Reply with quote

67jackr wrote:

Okay so I’ve been debating whether or not to just buy new pistons/cylinders or try to salvage what I have but now I’ve got something else to consider. I’m not sure how well it will show up in the photo but on one head there is a crack from the right side of the spark plug hole.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


OUCH !!
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Newbie 73 Beetle top end engine rebuild Reply with quote

b15605 wrote:
I went through something similar a few years back where I started with the intention of only cleaning things up on the top end. The advice most folks on here gave me, and that I subscribe to as well, is that if you believe the top end needs rebuilding it is wisest to go through the bottom end as well...you don't want to freshen up the top end and then have a weakened/unmatched bottom end that gives you problems later on.

I followed this advice and rebuilt from the bottom up and do not regret it. I also found I had a cracked head in the mix so had to buy new heads as well. I am sure others will chime in. I will admit at first I resisted this approach as I didn't want to spend the money and it did slow me down as I had to save more cash to do the job right, but retrospectively, it was the best move. Hope this helps.


Yep. Cracked a case and never looked back. Go for it.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:56 am    Post subject: Re: Newbie 73 Beetle top end engine rebuild Reply with quote

When I finally got to rebuilding my mexico case 71 bus. engine. I found the case had never fit the thrust, the heads were both cracked like the one pictured above and the crank was pitted and scratched, I was able to use the Rods and the crank gears and and some hardware that was about it. Building a Stock ish Type 1 engine for the 1971 VW Bus?
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