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My 1500S Notch Project
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Ossipon
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:15 am    Post subject: Re: My 1500S Notch Project Reply with quote

ataraxia wrote:

The 1964 model year is an interesting one because a LOT of subtle things changed on the car and depending on how particular you want or need to be - it can be challenging to find the right parts/repair panels for a direct fit.


Indeed, the 1964 is interesting. It is likely documented elsewhere, but I am trying to put together a list of all the various differences I have found. Thus far, I am focusing on body bits, but it likely holds true for electricals as well. I did a basic continuity test of the wiring to look for grounds. Luckily had only found one in the door switch wiring. That may sound great, but there is likely other wiring which is fragile or worn.
I plan to keep it 6 volt. Which is why I am being careful about optional things such as radios or a CHT gauge.
There is a starter relay the OO installed, and probably also at the same time moved the ignition from the column to where the cigarette lighter would be. Fixing that is a low priority compared to the other body and frame needs.
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VWs in my life:
Air
Type 1 - 59, 62, 63, 71 Super 68 KGhia/ Type 2 - 59 Single Cab / Type 3 - 64 Notch
Water
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ataraxia
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:00 am    Post subject: Re: My 1500S Notch Project Reply with quote

SO many things changed during this model year - a lot of them very subtle until you go to swap out a part and discover it doesn't work/fit.

The press button dash assembly was discontinued two-three months before the end of the model year - changing the wiring under the dash on the S model when the push-pull knobs replaced it (the N model already had them), the center tunnel changed (eliminating the center heat tube up to the dash), the hockey stick changed toward the end of the model year, the internal design of the doors changed (drain holes), the hinges on the doors were inconsistent between models and production numbers - some were 'one ear' some were 'two ear'...all little stuff. That's just off the top of my head.

The front frame head is somehow different between the Squareback and Notchback (they have different part numbers). I've never had two side by side to compare them though.

I tried to keep my car 6 volt but wound up converting the whole thing to 12 volt due to power constraints. I've recently replaced the entire wire harness because I was chasing too many electrical issues.
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Erik G
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:01 am    Post subject: Re: My 1500S Notch Project Reply with quote

Ossipon wrote:
It is likely documented elsewhere...


Progressive refinements has every change by chassis #. It's in the tech section here, but here is a good copy too, and searchable. From the 1500 Club website : http://www.vw1500.com/pr/pr.htm
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Bobnotch
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:35 pm    Post subject: Re: My 1500S Notch Project Reply with quote

ataraxia wrote:
SO many things changed during this model year - a lot of them very subtle until you go to swap out a part and discover it doesn't work/fit.

The press button dash assembly was discontinued two-three months before the end of the model year - changing the wiring under the dash on the S model when the push-pull knobs replaced it (the N model already had them), the center tunnel changed (eliminating the center heat tube up to the dash), the hockey stick changed toward the end of the model year, the internal design of the doors changed (drain holes), the hinges on the doors were inconsistent between models and production numbers - some were 'one ear' some were 'two ear'...all little stuff. That's just off the top of my head.

The front frame head is somehow different between the Squareback and Notchback (they have different part numbers). I've never had two side by side to compare them though.

I tried to keep my car 6 volt but wound up converting the whole thing to 12 volt due to power constraints. I've recently replaced the entire wire harness because I was chasing too many electrical issues.


My 64 T-34 had some of those odd ball changes too. The heat tube in the tunnel, the push button unit, didn't know about the frame head changes, but the tie rod ends were the small ones, but the ball joints were standard t-3.
In the end I did convert the car to 12 volt, as I've had a 6 volt car or 2 in the past and finding 6 volt batteries is not as easy as it used to be.
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Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
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Tram wrote:
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ataraxia
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: My 1500S Notch Project Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:
My 64 T-34 had some of those odd ball changes too. The heat tube in the tunnel, the push button unit, didn't know about the frame head changes, but the tie rod ends were the small ones, but the ball joints were standard t-3.
In the end I did convert the car to 12 volt, as I've had a 6 volt car or 2 in the past and finding 6 volt batteries is not as easy as it used to be.


65 has some odd changes too - there are doors on the 65s made in November that are technically one month only - different drain holes and have the little white clips on the door seal. The half Mickey Mouse aprons that don't seem to have much rhyme or reason to which cars got them...
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:30 pm    Post subject: Re: My 1500S Notch Project Reply with quote

ataraxia wrote:
Bobnotch wrote:
My 64 T-34 had some of those odd ball changes too. The heat tube in the tunnel, the push button unit, didn't know about the frame head changes, but the tie rod ends were the small ones, but the ball joints were standard t-3.
In the end I did convert the car to 12 volt, as I've had a 6 volt car or 2 in the past and finding 6 volt batteries is not as easy as it used to be.


65 has some odd changes too - there are doors on the 65s made in November that are technically one month only - different drain holes and have the little white clips on the door seal. The half Mickey Mouse aprons that don't seem to have much rhyme or reason to which cars got them...


Yup, my 65 Notch had the 2 white plastic clips for the door seal, and no Mickey, while my son's 65 Square didn't get the white plastic clips, but got a half Mickey. Some more of those odd ball changes within the same year.
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71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote:
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Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
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Ossipon
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:52 pm    Post subject: Re: My 1500S Notch Project Reply with quote

Erik G wrote:
Ossipon wrote:
It is likely documented elsewhere...


Progressive refinements has every change by chassis #. It's in the tech section here, but here is a good copy too, and searchable. From the 1500 Club website : http://www.vw1500.com/pr/pr.htm

Thanks for this. I had been out of town until today. Have been reading the PDFs of your link and using the notes feature in my PDF app I use to highlight.
Mine has heater tube in the tunnel. full Mickey, no push button but the insert to hold the newer wiper and light switch, and as seen the inner fender changes. The others is to be discovered.

The main reason I wanted to remain 6V was just not go down that road yet. That said, I will likely convert when I need to replace the Optima I have.

Similar to the quote of get it on the road, schnell schnell, I want to fix all the potential water entry points for the interior, SCHNELL, SCHNELL and THEN work to get it on the road.
So this week, I remove the sad excuse for a heater channel on the driver side (Being careful for the wiring harness) and remove the gas tank to have it boiled, pressure tested, and sealed if necessary. I know my limits and trying to fix gas tank leaks are not in my skillset. But, it certainly will make it easy work on the Master Cylinder and front brake lines.
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VWs in my life:
Air
Type 1 - 59, 62, 63, 71 Super 68 KGhia/ Type 2 - 59 Single Cab / Type 3 - 64 Notch
Water
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Bobnotch
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:44 pm    Post subject: Re: My 1500S Notch Project Reply with quote

Ossipon wrote:
Erik G wrote:
Ossipon wrote:
It is likely documented elsewhere...


Progressive refinements has every change by chassis #. It's in the tech section here, but here is a good copy too, and searchable. From the 1500 Club website : http://www.vw1500.com/pr/pr.htm

Thanks for this. I had been out of town until today. Have been reading the PDFs of your link and using the notes feature in my PDF app I use to highlight.
Mine has heater tube in the tunnel. full Mickey, no push button but the insert to hold the newer wiper and light switch, and as seen the inner fender changes. The others is to be discovered.

The main reason I wanted to remain 6V was just not go down that road yet. That said, I will likely convert when I need to replace the Optima I have.

Similar to the quote of get it on the road, schnell schnell, I want to fix all the potential water entry points for the interior, SCHNELL, SCHNELL and THEN work to get it on the road.
So this week, I remove the sad excuse for a heater channel on the driver side (Being careful for the wiring harness) and remove the gas tank to have it boiled, pressure tested, and sealed if necessary. I know my limits and trying to fix gas tank leaks are not in my skillset. But, it certainly will make it easy work on the Master Cylinder and front brake lines.


In my case on my 65 Notch, I had all sorts of 12 volt stuff laying around (could almost be classified as hoarding).
You might want to look in the tech section of this fine site, as years ago Russ posted up a guide to finding/fixing water leaks (that the dealer would have had to fix). It covers quite a bit of the car.
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Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote:
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives."
Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:04 pm    Post subject: Re: My 1500S Notch Project Reply with quote

I'm not sure sheetmetal with rivets buried under Bondo was correct for early '64?? Think

Laughing Laughing Laughing

Seriously,
It's going to be a huge PITA to do this body on pan,
Even doing a quick-o version of the job.
You're setting yourself up to not only make a lot more work,
But also miss/skip a bunch of repairs.

Piles of POR and Bondo over rusted metal isn't going to last long.
It creeps right out afterwards.
Might seem like a lot less work vs. doing it correctly,
But not if you end up doing it again.
You might also consider getting the pan away from the heater channels for structural reasons if nothing else.
The heater channels are an important part of the body's structural rigidity.



You can do a Steve without a rotisserie.
Surely there's a streetmattress somewhere nearby..
Check the online resource! Cool
https://www.streetmattress.com/sm.php
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:11 pm    Post subject: Re: My 1500S Notch Project Reply with quote

What am i looking at here?
This is clay, mud, or..?
Think

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Up high,
Are those rivets?
Think


What did it look like after you got it cleaned up?
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Ossipon
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:08 pm    Post subject: Re: My 1500S Notch Project Reply with quote

Clatter wrote:
What am i looking at here?
This is clay, mud, or..?
Are those rivets?
Think
What did it look like after you got it cleaned up?

1. It is Evercoat with Evercoat black coloring agent added. I used that in the 80s for the external surfaces that will not be normally seen.
As stated previously, that pic was taken right after final application and before final sanding and grinding.
And yes, those are rivets. In prior posts, I have said I use rivets instead of metal screws to hold things down to weld except where there is load bearing. Then I use nut and bolt. I grind down the rivets when I finish in sanding. Rivet and ground rivet holes are much easier to clean up in the final finish work. In my opinion, they have a cleaner hold when stitch welding on the inside.
You may do it differently, but that is how I was taught in the 70s.
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VWs in my life:
Air
Type 1 - 59, 62, 63, 71 Super 68 KGhia/ Type 2 - 59 Single Cab / Type 3 - 64 Notch
Water
GTI 83, Jetta 81, 85, 87, 91 TDI, 98 TDI, 09 / New Beetle 99 / SportWagen 05, 13 / Tiguan 18 / T3 92
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:31 am    Post subject: Re: My 1500S Notch Project- update Reply with quote

So as a follow up from prior post. Waiting to do Passenger side finishing (sanding, smoothing,filling and painting) after I get the driver pan and Apron work complete.
Busy morning, could not sleep and so started early. Took picture of Driver Pan before. Bad Riddle: What is worse than an OO putting in a ghia/bug pan in a Type 3? Answer: Not sealing it, bad welds and even using duct tape for some areas. I am sure others have experienced the same.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This one has higher rot on the rear inner fender than the passenger side as seen here.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And like before, the OO removed the side member and part of the front inner fender as a repair
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I have all the needed items to initiate Driver pan repair; Pan seal, bolts and pan washers, Gerson pan from KlassicFab, Heater Channel from ISP and partial Inner fender with side member from Mike F. OH and a critical item ordered this morning. the pedal pivot anchor for the pan from CIP.
Have done Rear Kick panel removal and the coarse removal of the ghia pan. Next is the cleaning, grinding and patch welding.
For me that will take almost as long as when I get ready to fit that partial inner fender bit. I want the pan to fit as well as the Passenger pan did.
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VWs in my life:
Air
Type 1 - 59, 62, 63, 71 Super 68 KGhia/ Type 2 - 59 Single Cab / Type 3 - 64 Notch
Water
GTI 83, Jetta 81, 85, 87, 91 TDI, 98 TDI, 09 / New Beetle 99 / SportWagen 05, 13 / Tiguan 18 / T3 92
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andybla
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2021 10:59 am    Post subject: Re: My 1500S Notch Project Reply with quote

good luck!
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Bobnotch
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 2:49 pm    Post subject: Re: My 1500S Notch Project- update Reply with quote

Ossipon wrote:
So as a follow up from prior post. Waiting to do Passenger side finishing (sanding, smoothing,filling and painting) after I get the driver pan and Apron work complete.

This one has higher rot on the rear inner fender than the passenger side as seen here.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And like before, the OO removed the side member and part of the front inner fender as a repair

For me that will take almost as long as when I get ready to fit that partial inner fender bit. I want the pan to fit as well as the Passenger pan did.


That reminds me of the rust my 71 Notch had. Keep in mind this is a common rust area on these cars, but no one makes patch panels for it.

This link might give you some ideas on how to fix the rear part of the cabin.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=760242
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Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote:
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Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
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Ossipon
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:33 am    Post subject: Re: My 1500S Notch Project Reply with quote

Had not posted anything for a month. Life had gotten in the way for good progress. But here is where I am now and lessons learned. I forgot to take pictures when doing this, so apologies. I will post finished work later.
Also a special shout-out to Jack on providing me part of the inner fender-Passenger side for replacement.
Progress
1. Driver pan replaced along with installation of a modified "new" late model heater channel.
2. Cut-out, overlay and stitch-weld of the rear inner fender area in the back seat area.
3. Installation of the front Inner channel piece I got from Mike F.
4. Installation of Seat rail.

These three tasks took much longer than planned due to the OO had the pan replaced with either a Ghia, or Type 1 pan and at that time removed the side members front by the front feet. They used a "laminate of tar over bondo, over metal. This gummed up/ruined more than a few blades,cutting discs and grinding pads.

Lessons learned/Re-learned
1. Be sure to pre-cut properly the Gerson pan. Don't cut too much before you have fit it to the heater channel. The attaching will shift from what you think is the fit. If you cut too much, you may not have enough to weld on the inner edge. (Luckily, I had just enough)
2. Do not be too enthusiastic in trimming in the back where the Gerson mates to the back edge. Otherwise you will need to add filler (Bondo) to close that gap like I did. (Final pics posted later)
3. When replacing inner fender portion, ask the provider to be generous with any provided piece. It is a whole lot easier to trim the replacement it to needed specs if you discover unplanned rot like I did. The piece may fit, but you have to create bridge pieces to use for any small gaps.
4. Likely known by others who have addressed the original areas joined in the back fender area. This area ROTs along the weld lines and is hidden by sealant. Remove all the sealant and work your way up until the joint area does not show rot. You will appreciate you effort more. BUT, it will be more work.
5. It does not need to be pretty, but make sure your sealant fills the minimal gaps created on the inner edge of the gerson replacement. This HAS TO BE the final step. Otherwise, you will melt the sealant if you need to do touch up weld points. And that area will be an interior leak point in any case if not sealed.
6. If doing this again. I would choose a Gerson replacement over a partial pan. If only doing a battery pan area, I would likely choose Partial. But for me, Gerson
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VWs in my life:
Air
Type 1 - 59, 62, 63, 71 Super 68 KGhia/ Type 2 - 59 Single Cab / Type 3 - 64 Notch
Water
GTI 83, Jetta 81, 85, 87, 91 TDI, 98 TDI, 09 / New Beetle 99 / SportWagen 05, 13 / Tiguan 18 / T3 92
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:05 pm    Post subject: Re: My 1500S Notch Project Reply with quote

Been a while since I posted progress. While I am waiting for my MC to get back from Jim, I decided to work on the fuel system. My other post about fuel pump was a deciding factor in going electric. Decided to clean and prep the fuel tank.
Aurgh! I suppose I should not be surprised after finding a gallon plus of shellacked gas in the tank that i would discover this.
I do not have the welding skills that I see in envy in other posters. So I had three options. ISP sourced, Used Samba classified, or take it to a local repair service. Call me frugal or whatever. I always look and compare the costs.
ISP is $175 for a tested tank + shipping
Classified Samba advert is 50-80 + shipping
or local repair and plastic lined for 180
Checking on shipping a fuel tank is NOT cheap either. ($90-150)
Right now am thinking on repair and plastic lining. It comes with a 18 mo. warranty.
In any case, this was not planned.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


On a different note, wondering what the best SVDA to get. The original Distributor is MIA and was replaced with a Vacuum only advance at some distant time in the past. I have a feeling it was done when the original 1500S engine was replaced with the early 1600 type 3 case as discussed in my prior post.
Ah well, just another "little" delay.
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VWs in my life:
Air
Type 1 - 59, 62, 63, 71 Super 68 KGhia/ Type 2 - 59 Single Cab / Type 3 - 64 Notch
Water
GTI 83, Jetta 81, 85, 87, 91 TDI, 98 TDI, 09 / New Beetle 99 / SportWagen 05, 13 / Tiguan 18 / T3 92
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:36 pm    Post subject: Re: My 1500S Notch Project Reply with quote

So what does the inside of the tank look like? Those holes are from the vent drains under the windshield - and outside in problem not an inside out. If the insides are good then just have it patched.

Did you see the fuel pumps can be rebuilt? As well as the carbs?

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2495059

T3 ownership isn't easy and is getting more expensive by the day. Laughing

Your build is not the easiest of ones to tackle - so hold on brother - you just getting to the good stuff. Razz
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:43 pm    Post subject: Re: My 1500S Notch Project Reply with quote

I wish you were closer as I have a couple really good tanks in SW Oregon. Shipping is stupid right now. So much so, that $600 in fuel to drive to pick up parts a couple weeks ago was cheaper, by far.

Good luck!
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:58 pm    Post subject: Re: My 1500S Notch Project Reply with quote

notchboy wrote:
So what does the inside of the tank look like? Those holes are from the vent drains under the windshield - and outside in problem not an inside out. If the insides are good then just have it patched.

Did you see the fuel pumps can be rebuilt? As well as the carbs?

T3 ownership isn't easy and is getting more expensive by the day. Laughing

Your build is not the easiest of ones to tackle - so hold on brother - you just getting to the good stuff. Razz

I broke up laughing with your post. I just do not want my wife to see your post though. Wink I knew the build would not be either simple or quick and easy. My biggest fear has been the NLA parts which I want, or will need to make/mod.

That is good to know about it being the drain being the cause. I looked inside the tank using my USB flex camera. Those were the only visible rust spots I could see. There is still a residue of shellac in the far side, but no rust. Those drain hoses are a different matter. they are just collapsed black sludge. That and the vent seals are on my replacement list.

In re: fuel pumps and Carbs. I rebuilt the VW6 Brosol with a Brosol VW7 kit. I did the usual. Clean, ultrasound and clean again, reassemble. It is not as minty clean as that one you showed. I have confidence mine would work. My concern is more about what I saw Pedro talk about when he was rebuilding fuel pumps. The kit dimensions are right in comparison to the original pump springs. (rod length, spring length and wire thickness. I see others using electric. And I have this 6v electric I still have from when I had my '66 BMW 1800. That is why I am considering electric. And not ready to buy the needed Pierburg.
On the 32PDSITs, it was much easier. And I polished my venturi's as that is what I did on the PBICs I had years ago.
I will say Gretchen is forcing me to improve my welding skills. All the things I had forgotten are slowly coming back. I just wish I had the flexibility I had 25-40 years ago. But that is a different story.
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VWs in my life:
Air
Type 1 - 59, 62, 63, 71 Super 68 KGhia/ Type 2 - 59 Single Cab / Type 3 - 64 Notch
Water
GTI 83, Jetta 81, 85, 87, 91 TDI, 98 TDI, 09 / New Beetle 99 / SportWagen 05, 13 / Tiguan 18 / T3 92
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:00 pm    Post subject: Re: My 1500S Notch Project Reply with quote

vwfye wrote:
I wish you were closer as I have a couple really good tanks in SW Oregon. Shipping is stupid right now. So much so, that $600 in fuel to drive to pick up parts a couple weeks ago was cheaper, by far.

Good luck!

Welcome to my joys of shipping to the Midwest. And shipping in general is even more than what I paid back in May.
_________________
Ossipon
VWs in my life:
Air
Type 1 - 59, 62, 63, 71 Super 68 KGhia/ Type 2 - 59 Single Cab / Type 3 - 64 Notch
Water
GTI 83, Jetta 81, 85, 87, 91 TDI, 98 TDI, 09 / New Beetle 99 / SportWagen 05, 13 / Tiguan 18 / T3 92
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