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alaskadan
Samba Member
Joined: January 09, 2013
Posts: 1857
Location: anchor pt. alaska
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 Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:47 am Post subject: Re: New super white paint that cools. |
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Agreed a white roof is cooler than a dark roof. But reflecting heat back into the atmosphere isn't helping global warming, no? Deserts reflect the sun's heat, forests absorb it. So investing in reflective technology for our comfort seems counterintuitive. My metal roof is silver.  . |
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DuncanS
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4583
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:49 am Post subject: Re: New super white paint that cools. |
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| alaskadan wrote: |
| Agreed a white roof is cooler than a dark roof. But reflecting heat back into the atmosphere isn't helping global warming, no? Deserts reflect the sun's heat, forests absorb it. So investing in reflective technology for our comfort seems counterintuitive. My metal roof is silver. . |
Did you mean intuitive? The ice at the poles is a major source of reflective heat so it doesn't get absorbed and heat Earth. If we could cover the oceans and forests with silver or this new reflective paint, wouldn't that help with global warming. Or any white or light colored paint?
In my case, the sun warms the interior directly and the upholstery and so on is darker than the white roof. So no roof is worse for global warming than a white roof? But I don't have trapped heat gain. I'm guessing that the continually radiating convective heat from my interior amounts to the same as opening a super hot interior of a white roofed T3 and letting the heat out all at once.
When I lived for a short time in Carefree,Arizona--a bad idea for a New England sailor and not carefree--the local town had an ordinance that roofs and houses couldn't be a light color as the reflection might annoy neighbors. Although the architecture of our condos were in the white stuccoed Spanish tradition, our condo association voted to paint them brown because all the rich were building adobe looking McMansions and our middle class owners wanted to keep up with the Joneses. And they did in spite of a half hour slide lecture I gave showing all the beautiful Spanish mission buildings in Scottsdale. And since we were grandfathered with the white, we were told that they could never go back to being white.
This is the time to stop here as djkeev will yank this and Terry Kay me.
But I will say this. Years ago I was in Dusseldorf, Germany for a trade show and parked in a beautiful field/parking lot that had this treatment.
Except you could only see the pavers when looking directly down. The topsoil is about 2" below the tops of the concrete and the grass never gets killed. Easy to plow and the land can absorb rainfall to reduce flooding. AND it's cooler for the absorbed heat. The parking lanes were marked with trees. When you first drove in it looked exactly like a park with some cars. It was probably about 25 acres in size. And it didn't need to get mowed as the car tires would bend the grass over and cut the blades on the edges of the concrete.
Why don't we do that here?
Duncan |
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bobbyblack 
Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2015
Posts: 4349
Location: United States, Iowa
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| Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:13 pm Post subject: Re: New super white paint that cools. |
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Duncan,
That is a beautiful driveway! I do appreciate the rain absorption on this. But, you got to remember that there must be a decent bit of solid area for those folks who wear high heals. Otherwise, you won't see many Gala events held at that place.. All the High Heals wearing people will be at the hospital getting their broken legs wrapped up.
Luckily, I'm from a long line of crafts people, and I've not seen anyone in high heals in a long long time. Our notable vehicles in the family have been a Saab 99, and a Checker Cab. Neither had white paint.
_________________
'87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch |
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DuncanS
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4583
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: New super white paint that cools. |
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High heels at Walmart? High heels at Home Depot? High heels at McDonalds? There are thousands of parking lots where this could be used. And have lawyer warning posted all over the trees that mark the parking lanes. Or have some side gravel sidewalks that can get the high heels to the destination. There are so many benefits to this solution, the country should figure out how to make it happen, not why it won't work.
D |
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pdm777
Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2012
Posts: 348
Location: Clovis, CA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:10 pm Post subject: Re: New super white paint that cools. |
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Jumping The Shark Big Time, Are We ?????
put down the pipe!
or, pick up a pipe !!!
you know what you need to do.
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1990 Westy Full Camper |
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?Waldo?
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9752
Location: Where?
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:56 am Post subject: Re: New super white paint that cools. |
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| alaskadan wrote: |
| Agreed a white roof is cooler than a dark roof. But reflecting heat back into the atmosphere isn't helping global warming, no? Deserts reflect the sun's heat, forests absorb it. So investing in reflective technology for our comfort seems counterintuitive. My metal roof is silver. . |
I don't get what you are saying and it sounds completely backwards. Light passes through the atmosphere, hits an object, changes its frequency to become heat and is trapped in the atmosphere. The ultra-white paint reflects almost all visible light AND it also turns heat into infrared light and emits that light. Any light that is reflected back out of the atmosphere reduces global warming. Any light that is absorbed into objects within the atmosphere and turned into heat contributes to global warming. |
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DuncanS
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4583
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:50 am Post subject: Re: New super white paint that cools. |
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| Thank you Waldo. |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32598
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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DuncanS
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4583
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:26 am Post subject: Re: New super white paint that cools. |
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| I'm guessing it cools the surround area by reflecting more of the suns rays back into the atmosphere and therefore absorbing less heat in whatever it is painted on. |
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alaskadan
Samba Member
Joined: January 09, 2013
Posts: 1857
Location: anchor pt. alaska
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:54 am Post subject: Re: New super white paint that cools. |
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| ?Waldo? wrote: |
| alaskadan wrote: |
| Agreed a white roof is cooler than a dark roof. But reflecting heat back into the atmosphere isn't helping global warming, no? Deserts reflect the sun's heat, forests absorb it. So investing in reflective technology for our comfort seems counterintuitive. My metal roof is silver. . |
I don't get what you are saying and it sounds completely backwards. Light passes through the atmosphere, hits an object, changes its frequency to become heat and is trapped in the atmosphere. The ultra-white paint reflects almost all visible light AND it also turns heat into infrared light and emits that light. Any light that is reflected back out of the atmosphere reduces global warming. Any light that is absorbed into objects within the atmosphere and turned into heat contributes to global warming. |
It is confusing, and Duncan is right about the polar caps. I saw it in a documentary a long time ago regarding deserts growing due to their own reflective nature and forests absorbing heat. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying don't paint your roof white, on my 74 bay I painted it blue with a white roof. And we alaskans have a higher carbon footprint per capita due to where we live. |
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?Waldo?
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9752
Location: Where?
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:15 am Post subject: Re: New super white paint that cools. |
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| djkeev wrote: |
I still fail to see how the claim that it “cools” the surrounding area works.
But there are many areas of Science that I fail to understand and simply accept. |
Based on what the articles say, as I mentioned in my last post, the paint turns heat into infrared light and emits it. Although infrared is not in the visible spectrum, it might help in understanding if you imagine that in that spectrum the paint glows due to heat. Because it emits the heat as infrared (and absorbs far less light) it is cooler than the surrounding area. Because it is cooler than the surrounding area, heat flows to the paint (reducing the temperature of the surrounding area) and is emitted as more infrared light. |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32598
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:58 am Post subject: Re: New super white paint that cools. |
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| ?Waldo? wrote: |
| djkeev wrote: |
I still fail to see how the claim that it “cools” the surrounding area works.
But there are many areas of Science that I fail to understand and simply accept. |
Based on what the articles say, as I mentioned in my last post, the paint turns heat into infrared light and emits it. Although infrared is not in the visible spectrum, it might help in understanding if you imagine that in that spectrum the paint glows due to heat. Because it emits the heat as infrared (and absorbs far less light) it is cooler than the surrounding area. Because it is cooler than the surrounding area, heat flows to the paint (reducing the temperature of the surrounding area) and is emitted as more infrared light. |
While I understand every word you posted, the operation of it eludes my feeble brain.
It is a passive system that emits...... there us my stumbling block. To emit is an action requiring energy.
Absorbing, reflecting are all passive actions.
The best I come up with is hot water.
A bowl of hot water on a counter will warm the counter under it and a few inches around the bowl.
As the water cools it is emitting warmth.
As the water cools the bowl will cool and the counter will cool until it is all at ambient temperature.
But to continue and drop below ambient temperature without an energy source?
Now you lose me.
Dave
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?Waldo?
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9752
Location: Where?
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:35 am Post subject: Re: New super white paint that cools. |
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| The ambient temperature (heat) is the energy source that drives the process. When a piece of steel glows red hot, it is not glowing without an energy source. It glows due to the heat in the material. It emits both heat to the air and to any other material that is touching it and it also emits infrared light that is below the visible spectrum, along with the red/orange light that is within the visible spectrum. That emission of infrared and visible light is powered by the heat of the steel. Imagine that process only occurring at a cooler temperature and the light being emitted being below the visible spectrum. I don't think I can explain it more simply. If that is still confusing then my best recommendation would be to read up on heat and infrared radiation. |
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deadaheadub
Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2004
Posts: 787
Location: New Mexico
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:46 am Post subject: Re: New super white paint that cools. |
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If the light particle hits the white surface, it converts into infrared IR, but is not absorbed but rather is reflected back into the atmosphere. So the incoming energy is the outgoing energy you're talking about "emitting." So it is taking energy to bounce back out but that is a part of the energy that the original light particle brought in with it, no?
Then, if the white surface is cooler (than the surrounding area) as a result of reflecting much of the energy that hits it, that cooler surface will collect warmer molecules from the surrounding area, thus cooling that surrounding area.
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Past loves: '65 Bug, '70 Westy poptop, '64 Squareback project, '76 Westy tintop "Loose Lucy", '76 Westy tintop "Sharee"
Current:'84 Westy poptop "Ramblin' Rose- Rosie" w/ 2003 Subaru EJ25 conversion |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32598
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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deadaheadub
Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2004
Posts: 787
Location: New Mexico
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:11 pm Post subject: Re: New super white paint that cools. |
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| djkeev wrote: |
OK .......
But is not the greenhouse effect the trapping of infrared near the earths surface because it is blocked by suspended pollutants or moisture from exiting the atmosphere? |
Yes. CO2 and CH4 molecules in the atmosphere impede the upward flow of IR molecules back into the atmosphere, trapping them closer to the earth's surface.
_________________
Grateful daily,
Ryan
______________________________________
Past loves: '65 Bug, '70 Westy poptop, '64 Squareback project, '76 Westy tintop "Loose Lucy", '76 Westy tintop "Sharee"
Current:'84 Westy poptop "Ramblin' Rose- Rosie" w/ 2003 Subaru EJ25 conversion |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32598
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:41 pm Post subject: Re: New super white paint that cools. |
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| deadaheadub wrote: |
| djkeev wrote: |
OK .......
But is not the greenhouse effect the trapping of infrared near the earths surface because it is blocked by suspended pollutants or moisture from exiting the atmosphere? |
Yes. CO2 and CH4 molecules in the atmosphere impede the upward flow of IR molecules back into the atmosphere, trapping them closer to the earth's surface. |
So........
All this paint is doing is getting rid of the heat in a small given finite location.
Sending it to the atmosphere where a little bit escapes, the rest gets trapped in the greenhouse gases and hangs around warming the earth.
This paint is simply speeding up the conversion of visible light to infrared?
Protecting a finite location from the visible light heat building up.
Dave
_________________
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Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
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deadaheadub
Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2004
Posts: 787
Location: New Mexico
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:48 pm Post subject: Re: New super white paint that cools. |
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Yes. The IR energy fails to be absorbed by the physical surface of the white painted surface and reflects back up- just as happens on sheets of ice in the ocean. Whether it actually escapes the atmosphere and returns back into space depends on what those IR molecules encounter on their way back up- a leaf on a tree, a methane molecule, or nothing that can absorb and trap it.
_________________
Grateful daily,
Ryan
______________________________________
Past loves: '65 Bug, '70 Westy poptop, '64 Squareback project, '76 Westy tintop "Loose Lucy", '76 Westy tintop "Sharee"
Current:'84 Westy poptop "Ramblin' Rose- Rosie" w/ 2003 Subaru EJ25 conversion |
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?Waldo?
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9752
Location: Where?
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:06 pm Post subject: Re: New super white paint that cools. |
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| ?Waldo? wrote: |
| Any light that is reflected back out of the atmosphere reduces global warming. Any light that is absorbed into objects within the atmosphere and turned into heat contributes to global warming. |
Any amount reflected back through the atmosphere is a win as far as global warming is concerned. If a house, car, commercial building, etc... is cooled in the process that is another win (win win), especially if the alternative is pulling carbon from the ground and burning it (loss) and adding more carbon dioxide to the atmosphere (loss loss) in order to cool the same house, car, commercial building with a conventional heat pump which just pumps the heat from inside to outside that space. |
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DuncanS
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4583
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: New super white paint that cools. |
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Think of the light and its energy coming to a surface as a super ball; the ones kids have these days which rebound to astonishing heights. When it hits a surface some of the energy will be given to the surface in terms of heat as the molecules of the surface are moved by the ball. Remember if you move a bunch of molecules faster than they were moving heat is produced. When you hack saw a chunk of metal the energy of removing molecules heats up the surrounding ones and you can feel the warmth.
So imagine our rubber ball landing on concrete. It will bounce back up just as the light bounces back off a white surface. Now let's change the concrete for a super light, super thick foam mattress. The ball will barely bounce back at all and almost all of the energy is absorbed by the foam which will heat up locally more than the concrete. In this case, the foam energy absorbing surface is a dark paint. So the concrete is cooler than the foam because it absorbed less energy from the ball and therefore has less energy to radiate in the neighborhood--i.e. cooler. |
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