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bobbyblack 
Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2015
Posts: 4353
Location: United States, Iowa
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 Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:05 pm Post subject: Re: WBX Emulator - real time data, onboard diagnostics and tuning |
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Had a chance to give the emulator a bit of real world testing. I live way out a gravel road with some nice hills, so nearly 'off-road'.
The ignition 'advance' was funny. A while back I'd done Corkins all-in 35% @ 3K RPM (two inches CW of the U) and all that seemed close on the display until I was on a downslope and saw the display go red for 'advance' .. Huh, repeated until I spotted 46deg+.
Okay, so that threw me. I had to find out what I could, thinking somehow that I needed to re-do my timing!
Nope. Physical "aiming" of the Dist and the emulator display are not linked, or at least not very much.
Interesting lesson tho. Now I have to try to sort out why the Corkins method f for my engine is just a tad off. Last time I had to re-find the spot the PO had it timed to, couple degrees was all. Not real sure what that genius had done to this engine... Was an Engineer from the Boston area. Seems possible he'd either done something himself, or had an engine built with some slightly different specs. He would have been the kind of guy who knew about Boston Bob's shop, engine mods, etc.
_________________
'87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch |
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DigiMatrix
Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2010
Posts: 450
Location: Up North Canada
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:32 pm Post subject: Re: WBX Emulator - real time data, onboard diagnostics and tuning |
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Don't get too carried away with your timing. The value I display is based on a calculation of the Hall window opening. It is based on the window opening at 78 degrees BTDC and closing at 6 degrees BTDC.
Based on that, the timing map in the binary looks like this:
So, if when the timing is set as per Bentley, and the Hall window is opening at 78 deg BTDC the above table should be correct. You will notice that is is different than the one shown in the Pro training manual. That one has a very flat top and is definitely different. Why? I don't know - yet
So please, now that you have this new tool, please don't over think what you are seeing and think you need to make changes. Now that there is more than one set of eyes on this, maybe we can work together to ensure what I have done in the back ground is correct. I don't claim to have all the answers. I have tried to represent things the best I can, but sometimes reading the disassembled code and figuring it out is not easy.
_________________
_________________
'91 Syncro Westfalia
soon to be 2.5 liter stroker WBX 10:1 comp
Digifant ECU with knock sensor and custom
cylinder selective knock control by me |
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DanHoug
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016
Posts: 4800
Location: Bemidji, MN
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:20 pm Post subject: Re: WBX Emulator - real time data, onboard diagnostics and tuning |
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that timing map is so interesting! to get max advance, one needs specific RPM, like 3900-5800 AND specific AFM voltages.
i'm still not understanding concepts around the calculated TDC... i CAN understand this when a system is timed to dead stock as accurate assumptions can be made. how does the emulator reference TDC when non-stock timing is employed? is there an offset value one can enter to account for the difference? or must dead stock timing be employed for the emulator timing value to be accurate?
i'm okay with the value being relative, not true. i'll always time with a gun anyway.
_________________
-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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DigiMatrix
Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2010
Posts: 450
Location: Up North Canada
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:58 pm Post subject: Re: WBX Emulator - real time data, onboard diagnostics and tuning |
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| DanHoug wrote: |
that timing map is so interesting! to get max advance, one needs specific RPM, like 3900-5800 AND specific AFM voltages.
i'm still not understanding concepts around the calculated TDC... i CAN understand this when a system is timed to dead stock as accurate assumptions can be made. how does the emulator reference TDC when non-stock timing is employed? is there an offset value one can enter to account for the difference? or must dead stock timing be employed for the emulator timing value to be accurate?
i'm okay with the value being relative, not true. i'll always time with a gun anyway. |
Dan, I will try and explain how the timing calculation works, more in depth in a future post. The timing value displayed is based on the distributor being set to stock timing. It is possible to adjust the output to reflect any changes to the stock setting by applying an offset to the calculation. This would require a custom adx file for each person's custom setting. For now, I am displaying it for a stock initial timing setting. It is just an offset, so you can take that into account.
_________________
_________________
'91 Syncro Westfalia
soon to be 2.5 liter stroker WBX 10:1 comp
Digifant ECU with knock sensor and custom
cylinder selective knock control by me |
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DanHoug
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016
Posts: 4800
Location: Bemidji, MN
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:07 pm Post subject: Re: WBX Emulator - real time data, onboard diagnostics and tuning |
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thanks, Don. actually, knowing that the timing value accuracy depends upon setting timing to stock answers everything for me. you've explained in the past how the timing and TDC are calculated, so no need to go over that again. thanks, tho.
as i said, i'm totally fine with *relative* displayed timing values as i run non-stock timing. it's cool to see the timing change under varying conditions and that to me is the worth, not it being 100% accurate. it's like anything else, you observe a baseline of what is normal when the engine is running well and go from there when it is on the fritz.
_________________
-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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DigiMatrix
Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2010
Posts: 450
Location: Up North Canada
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:37 pm Post subject: Re: WBX Emulator - real time data, onboard diagnostics and tuning |
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I will add some details later as the timing has modifiers for ECT, fuel cut etc. It will help explain what you are seeing at times
_________________
_________________
'91 Syncro Westfalia
soon to be 2.5 liter stroker WBX 10:1 comp
Digifant ECU with knock sensor and custom
cylinder selective knock control by me |
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SyncroHead
Samba Member
Joined: May 23, 2005
Posts: 1145
Location: Northern Nevada
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:34 pm Post subject: Re: WBX Emulator - real time data, onboard diagnostics and tuning |
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Well, Friday I got the Emulator installed in my Digifant and today I ordered a Samsung Android phone off eBay. Excited to see the Bluetooth connect and start reading data within the week!
Jim
_________________
"A Vanagon? It's not a car or a van. It's a hobby!"
Check out:
www.VANAVATION.com
www.SyncroSafari.org and
www.Vanagons.org
| sphet wrote: |
| I have *no* idea what the previous owner carried in his Westy... angry donkeys? |
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dabaron
Samba Member
Joined: June 21, 2018
Posts: 2562
Location: Philly, mang
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 12:05 pm Post subject: Re: WBX Emulator - real time data, onboard diagnostics and tuning |
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| Bradgt74 wrote: |
Hey dabaron, did you solder your wire to C68? I ask because in your picture it isn’t landed there, and maybe the pic was taken before soldering. I’m having second thoughts about soldering myself. I’ve done my fair share of soldering, but not at this nano level!  |
i tinned the wire and then used a bit of fresh solder to flow the thru hole and then shoved the wire in. then dressed it from the other side to make sure it was well connected.
i was mil-spec certified when i worked for the gubbermint.
_________________
1991 Vanagon GL Camper
i had no idea i wanted to be a mechanic
"burnin oil and cookin coils" -- Destructo
BiWerks Design, LLC |
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natejohn
Samba Member
Joined: February 20, 2020
Posts: 57
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:24 pm Post subject: Re: WBX Emulator - real time data, onboard diagnostics and tuning |
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Has anyone taken any vids of them installing/soldering? I'm not worried about tackling it I just like watching the process. I must have watched Akers videos on his suspension rebuild a dozen times before I started the work myself.
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1990 Vanagon Westfalia |
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Steve M.
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013
Posts: 6833
Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:56 pm Post subject: Re: WBX Emulator - real time data, onboard diagnostics and tuning |
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| natejohn wrote: |
| Has anyone taken any vids of them installing/soldering? I'm not worried about tackling it I just like watching the process. I must have watched Akers videos on his suspension rebuild a dozen times before I started the work myself. |
This is a very useful tool for getting solder out of the hole if it has been filled with solder like mine was. It is simply a spring loaded syringe that work in reverse and sucks in instead of pushing a chemical out. You heat and melt the solder in the hole. Put the syringe on it and when you flip the release it sucks the solder out of the hole.
It's magic!
https://www.amazon.com/TBBSC-Desoldering-Solder-Su...amp;sr=8-4
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This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them. |
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DigiMatrix
Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2010
Posts: 450
Location: Up North Canada
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:06 pm Post subject: Re: WBX Emulator - real time data, onboard diagnostics and tuning |
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| natejohn wrote: |
| Has anyone taken any vids of them installing/soldering? I'm not worried about tackling it I just like watching the process. I must have watched Akers videos on his suspension rebuild a dozen times before I started the work myself. |
There is a picture of an alternate location on the one drive share of the documentation if you prefer. It is an easier location to solder but requires a longer wire. I would do a video, but I have a de-soldering station that most people wouldn't have so it is pointless. It heats and sucks the solder with one device and is a tool I wish I had bought years ago.
_________________
_________________
'91 Syncro Westfalia
soon to be 2.5 liter stroker WBX 10:1 comp
Digifant ECU with knock sensor and custom
cylinder selective knock control by me |
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DigiMatrix
Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2010
Posts: 450
Location: Up North Canada
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:19 pm Post subject: Re: WBX Emulator - real time data, onboard diagnostics and tuning |
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For those that have purchased an Emulator, I have added a video of an ALDLdroid screen capture of my engine from cold start to closed loop fuel control, and the O2 sensor Integral gain value leveled out on my OneDrive share. There is a readme.txt file that explains what is happening, my engine specs etc. I thought it might be useful to compare to what you are seeing with your engine. I would expect with stock injectors the OXS Integral gain value should be less than what I am seeing, but time will tell once others report.
BTW, the next batch of 20 Emulators have been started - processors are all soldered on. Moving to the next components.
_________________
_________________
'91 Syncro Westfalia
soon to be 2.5 liter stroker WBX 10:1 comp
Digifant ECU with knock sensor and custom
cylinder selective knock control by me
Last edited by DigiMatrix on Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:38 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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montanasurfer
Samba Member
Joined: March 06, 2014
Posts: 319
Location: United States
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:36 pm Post subject: Re: WBX Emulator - real time data, onboard diagnostics and tuning |
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| natejohn wrote: |
| Has anyone taken any vids of them installing/soldering? I'm not worried about tackling it I just like watching the process. I must have watched Akers videos on his suspension rebuild a dozen times before I started the work myself. |
This whole topic is so cool! I agree with Natejohn. Post your experiences and installs folks! I want to live vicariously through y'all until I can get mine! 
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1987 Vanagon GL - Wolfsburg Edition |
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valvecovergasket
Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2018
Posts: 1492
Location: pnw
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:58 pm Post subject: Re: WBX Emulator - real time data, onboard diagnostics and tuning |
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| DigiMatrix wrote: |
Don't get too carried away with your timing. The value I display is based on a calculation of the Hall window opening. It is based on the window opening at 78 degrees BTDC and closing at 6 degrees BTDC.
Based on that, the timing map in the binary looks like this:
So, if when the timing is set as per Bentley, and the Hall window is opening at 78 deg BTDC the above table should be correct. You will notice that is is different than the one shown in the Pro training manual. That one has a very flat top and is definitely different. Why? I don't know - yet |
if im reading that right youre at 26deg at full load? that seems pretty reasonable.
i wonder if anyone has done any logging to see what kind of AFRs the system achieves at full load through the rpms, since its presumably running open loop in that case. would be interesting to see.
41deg at mid/light throttle cruise is also pretty healthy!
its always funny to see what stock setups are running, usually pretty well nerfed at full load at higher rpms by either tons of fuel or really dialing back spark.
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MegaSquirt resource - SpitfireEFI.com
gone, but not forgotten: '83 tdi westy - swap thread |
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DigiMatrix
Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2010
Posts: 450
Location: Up North Canada
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:31 pm Post subject: Re: WBX Emulator - real time data, onboard diagnostics and tuning |
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| valvecovergasket wrote: |
i wonder if anyone has done any logging to see what kind of AFRs the system achieves at full load through the rpms, since its presumably running open loop in that case. would be interesting to see. |
I need to weld in a bung and feed my wideband O2 sensor into the ECU (spare A/D port) and capture RPM vs load vs AFR. Maybe over the winter I can finally fire up my tig machine that I bought just before Covid and haven't made the time to use it yet! I also need to do some programming on a new application to convert the fuel table to injector pulse width for the van digifant chip. I did this before for the supercharged version of digifant chip. Too many things to do and not enough time!!!
I know that Marco Mansi wants to log AFR vs load vs RPM as well.
_________________
_________________
'91 Syncro Westfalia
soon to be 2.5 liter stroker WBX 10:1 comp
Digifant ECU with knock sensor and custom
cylinder selective knock control by me |
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DuncanS
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4583
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:35 pm Post subject: Re: WBX Emulator - real time data, onboard diagnostics and tuning |
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Can't wait. Hope I'm not too far down on the list. I assume we will get a PM when we're up? I feel like being at the best restaurant ever and am waiting for my buzzer to say the table is ready.
Duncan |
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valvecovergasket
Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2018
Posts: 1492
Location: pnw
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: WBX Emulator - real time data, onboard diagnostics and tuning |
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| DigiMatrix wrote: |
I need to weld in a bung and feed my wideband O2 sensor into the ECU (spare A/D port) and capture RPM vs load vs AFR. . |
Excited to see what you come up with,
I don't have any stock for stock info on the vw stuff - but some of the Miata stock mapping is pretty amusing. Running deep into the 11s at full tilt and pulling timing up top and running almost stoich nearly everywhere else in the table
I bet there's some power and fuel economy waiting to get unlocked in there.
I wonder how lean things get there in that mid range where the 40+ timing is - those are usually numbers I wouldn't expect to see unless they're pushing >15.5 AFR but I'd doubt that with a cat...
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MegaSquirt resource - SpitfireEFI.com
gone, but not forgotten: '83 tdi westy - swap thread |
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DigiMatrix
Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2010
Posts: 450
Location: Up North Canada
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:45 pm Post subject: Re: WBX Emulator - real time data, onboard diagnostics and tuning |
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| DuncanS wrote: |
Can't wait. Hope I'm not too far down on the list. I assume we will get a PM when we're up? I feel like being at the best restaurant ever and am waiting for my buzzer to say the table is ready.
Duncan |
You are #14 on the next batch - I just finished working on the next batch for the night. Need to solder the SRAM next and then all the cap's, resisters, led's, pins and bluetooth modules. After that, programming and testing. I hope to begin testing by the weekend. I'm trying to get this next batch done ASAP.
_________________
_________________
'91 Syncro Westfalia
soon to be 2.5 liter stroker WBX 10:1 comp
Digifant ECU with knock sensor and custom
cylinder selective knock control by me |
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DuncanS
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4583
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:47 pm Post subject: Re: WBX Emulator - real time data, onboard diagnostics and tuning |
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| Goodie, Goodie. |
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syncrowesty
Samba Member
Joined: January 20, 2006
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:19 pm Post subject: Re: WBX Emulator - real time data, onboard diagnostics and tuning |
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Thank you for your efforts on this project. I am impressed with what you have accomplished, and this is a huge contribution to the Vanagon community.
I am very interested in getting in line for a unit (in fact, two, if possible, as I have a few Vanagons).
Years ago I was intrigued by the clues in both the Bentley manual (97.123 ECS-MAL IND LT AND SWTCH) and the dash switch for blink codes in ETKA (my 89 has the wiring and connector, but no switch). I was able to get the trouble codes blinked out and clear them, but the codes really didn't provide a lot of useful information.
Your product, on the other hand, is simply amazing!
Craig Forney
1990 Tornado Red Carat
1987 Dove Blue Metallic Syncro Westy |
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