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My new ‘64 Notch comes with questions…
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Bobnotch
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:54 pm    Post subject: Re: My new ‘64 Notch comes with questions… Reply with quote

ataraxia wrote:
To Clatter's point: Because so many things are changed on your car - you will not be able to follow a blue Bentley to make a repair.

This car was originally 6volt and now appears to be 12volt. Do the wipers work? The wiper motor is usually the one thing that isn't changed because it's a hassle to swap the wiper motor.

Do the rear fenders have the holes in them for the reflectors that are missing?


Yup, you'll probably want to get a brown Bentley, as it'll cover the disc brakes, and the IRS rear suspension (trans, CV joints, and rear 2 piece drum brakes), along with the 12 volt electrical system.
Like Josh pointed out, you might want to look for a voltage drop unit on the wiper motor wiring, or see if the PO installed a 12 volt wiper motor. It's one of those things that most people forget when doing a proper conversion.
My own car got the wiper motor swapped when I did my own conversion to 12 volt. When I did it, I went with the 70 only set up, as it has a better way to secure the wiper arms (a problem area on early cars).
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71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
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Essthreetee
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:45 pm    Post subject: Re: My new ‘64 Notch comes with questions… Reply with quote

Wipers work. Although I do not know if they have been changed to match the 12 volt.

I have not yet pulled the shifter again to check the bushing, spent most of the day at my sons 1st triathlon.

I am confused about the suspension that I currently have was the front beam simply swapped to allow for disc brakes? Or could it have been converted?
My wife and I much prefer the wide 5 wheels and would like to know what I can do to change my lug nut pattern to the wide 5?

Can I simply change the drums in back? And if so, what would I need to do to the fronts to match?

Again, thank you for all your help. I hope that someday I can help others out….after much learning that is.
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ataraxia
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:32 pm    Post subject: Re: My new ‘64 Notch comes with questions… Reply with quote

If the PO left the 6 volt wiper motor in the car and converted it to 12 volt - the wipers have one speed - 'fast'. And they'll work until the motor burns out. There should be a part number on the wiper motor that you can sometimes see by looking under the dash. That part number will tell you what the PO did.

The front beam is, more or less, the same basic design from beginning to end. Sure, there are tons of changes but the overall design is the same. Internal bushings changed, bearings changed, etc. - none of that will affect your brake changes. There are a few ways to tell if you have an early beam - but that isn't necessarily a big deal because you don't need to swap the beam to change the brakes - that's typically done by swapping the spindles.

There are two basic versions: Drum (until 65) and Disc (66-73). Drum spindles changed in 63/64 to increase the size of the bolt that holds the ball joints (from M8 to M10) and Disc spindles changed at least twice - once in 68 when the inner bearing increased in size and again in 72 when the caliper changed.

To go back to Wide 5 in the rear - Find Wide 5 drums and swap them. One caveat: A lot of the new reproduced Wide 5 rear brake drums are either warped, out of round or not machined correctly.

To get back to Wide 5 in the front - your best bet is the ISP West kit - it's a bolt on solution using the spindles already on your car: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2174221
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Bobnotch
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:31 pm    Post subject: Re: My new ‘64 Notch comes with questions… Reply with quote

ataraxia wrote:
If the PO left the 6 volt wiper motor in the car and converted it to 12 volt - the wipers have one speed - 'fast'. And they'll work until the motor burns out. There should be a part number on the wiper motor that you can sometimes see by looking under the dash. That part number will tell you what the PO did.

The front beam is, more or less, the same basic design from beginning to end. Sure, there are tons of changes but the overall design is the same. Internal bushings changed, bearings changed, etc. - none of that will affect your brake changes. There are a few ways to tell if you have an early beam - but that isn't necessarily a big deal because you don't need to swap the beam to change the brakes - that's typically done by swapping the spindles.

There are two basic versions: Drum (until 65) and Disc (66-73). Drum spindles changed in 63/64 to increase the size of the bolt that holds the ball joints (from M8 to M10) and Disc spindles changed at least twice - once in 68 when the inner bearing increased in size and again in 72 when the caliper changed.

To go back to Wide 5 in the rear - Find Wide 5 drums and swap them. One caveat: A lot of the new reproduced Wide 5 rear brake drums are either warped, out of round or not machined correctly.

To get back to Wide 5 in the front - your best bet is the ISP West kit - it's a bolt on solution using the spindles already on your car: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2174221


Actually the spindle changed 3 times, as in 67 VW went to larger tie rod ends. Granted the steering arm is what changed, and is a bolt on part. But most people just swap the entire spindle when converting.
I agree with Josh, and go with the ISP disc swap kits to return the front to wide 5.
Look in the classifieds for wide 5 rear drums (good used), or contact Joel in Washington state and see if he has any. Good used drums are better quality, and are machined correctly. The new ones seem to be machined slightly off center (it does make a difference). The nice thing about the rears, is that the wide 5 drums WILL work with the 66 on drum parts. Keep in mind shipping could get expensive, as the drums are heavy. I hope this helps.
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Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
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Tram wrote:
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ataraxia
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:02 pm    Post subject: Re: My new ‘64 Notch comes with questions… Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:
Actually the spindle changed 3 times, as in 67 VW went to larger tie rod ends. Granted the steering arm is what changed, and is a bolt on part.


Technically, this isn't correct because the steering arm is a different part. But I get what you're saying with 'most people just swap the entire spindle'. It's definitely something to be aware of when swapping spindles.
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Bobnotch
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:30 pm    Post subject: Re: My new ‘64 Notch comes with questions… Reply with quote

ataraxia wrote:
Bobnotch wrote:
Actually the spindle changed 3 times, as in 67 VW went to larger tie rod ends. Granted the steering arm is what changed, and is a bolt on part.


Technically, this isn't correct because the steering arm is a different part. But I get what you're saying with 'most people just swap the entire spindle'. It's definitely something to be aware of when swapping spindles.


Even more so with early cars, or unknown parts being installed. I only say that as 66 spindles are a direct swap, uses the same tie rod ends and wheel bearings (inner and outer) as they are the last year for those parts in that combination. 67 was the tie rod end change, and mid 68 was the inner bearing change. Then no changes until mid/late 71 (for 72 MY) when the rotor and caliper size changed (some late 71's got the larger rotor and caliper, all parts of VW's "running changes").
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Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote:
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives."
Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
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Essthreetee
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:18 pm    Post subject: Re: My new ‘64 Notch comes with questions… Reply with quote

Holy smokes!!!! You guys are a mountain of information. Thank you so much.

I have already been in contact with Joel for some other things and he is also very helpful. I will talk to him about some drums.

Thanks for the direct link to isp also, way above and beyond. But perfect.

Hope you all are having a great weekend.

I will check the wiper motor for info and the bushing on the shifting once I get in there. I thought a part was going to deliver, but got delayed…is the reason for my delay on checking it.
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Bobnotch
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:55 pm    Post subject: Re: My new ‘64 Notch comes with questions… Reply with quote

Essthreetee wrote:
Holy smokes!!!! You guys are a mountain of information. Thank you so much.
I will check the bushing on the shifting once I get in there.


After buying enough parts that don't fit or work, you kind of learn what does. It doesn't help when VW makes mid year changes either. That's why we're trying to help you out as it'll make your driving/owning experience that much better.

Contact KT Phil on here, as he knows who to buy the right shifter bushing from. Not ALL plastic bushings are made the same. Even Ray can tell you that (our resident plastics expert). Wink
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Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote:
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Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:37 pm    Post subject: Re: My new ‘64 Notch comes with questions… Reply with quote

Since that car has so many modifications i wouldn't be wasting time tracking down a set of original early drums.
Taking on the task of restoring early brakes is best left to someone restoring a car with an eye for correctness.
It's a project unto itself because good parts are scarce.

You won't see the lug bolts anyway if you're running hubcaps, so why bother? Wink

If the bolt pattern is what you really care about just go ahead and put aftermarket discs on all four corners and enjoy the additional stopping power.

Any rear brakes will work because the suspension is the same as a Beetle.
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Erik G
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:47 pm    Post subject: Re: My new ‘64 Notch comes with questions… Reply with quote

Clatter wrote:


You won't see the lug bolts anyway if you're running hubcaps, so why bother? Wink



says the guy that put 8 spokes on an oval Sick

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Sick

Quote:

Any rear brakes will work because the suspension is the same as a Beetle.


ummm, no? bugs have much thinner shoes and drums

I do agree that if you aren't restoring to original, go discs, stay 4 lug or swap to Porsche or whatever.
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:15 pm    Post subject: Re: My new ‘64 Notch comes with questions… Reply with quote

Erik G wrote:
Clatter wrote:


You won't see the lug bolts anyway if you're running hubcaps, so why bother? Wink



says the guy that put 8 spokes on an oval Sick

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Sick

Quote:

Any rear brakes will work because the suspension is the same as a Beetle.


ummm, no? bugs have much thinner shoes and drums

I do agree that if you aren't restoring to original, go discs, stay 4 lug or swap to Porsche or whatever.


I didn't put those on there... Shame on you Shame on you Not talking Not talking


Too many other things to work on before caring about wheels;
Narrowing arms for one thing.

You'll notice "Running and Driving"..
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ataraxia
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:28 pm    Post subject: Re: My new ‘64 Notch comes with questions… Reply with quote

Clatter wrote:
Since that car has so many modifications i wouldn't be wasting time tracking down a set of original early drums.


Rear drums are not that hard to find and rear discs, while an improvement, would cost a lot more - especially in wide 5 with a parking brake. All they're after is the wide 5 wheels.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:28 pm    Post subject: Re: My new ‘64 Notch comes with questions… Reply with quote

Here’s an update on the shifting. Pulled the shifter, and from what I can tell, the bushing seems ok. But what i found that I believe is keeping the reverse lockout from working is that the PO (or the PPO) added a steel plate to the tunnel just over the shifter. I guess that this is affecting it. The shifting is great. Smooth, easy to go from gear to gear. Just no lockout. Any thoughts on this?
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ataraxia
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:35 pm    Post subject: Re: My new ‘64 Notch comes with questions… Reply with quote

What shifter is installed in the car?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:11 pm    Post subject: Re: My new ‘64 Notch comes with questions… Reply with quote

ataraxia wrote:
What shifter is installed in the car?


I received it from PO with an aftermarket shifter that I hated it. (Not possible for lockout)

I then put the black (stock ?) one in and it shifted ok, but no lockout.

I then contacted Joel about what I thought was the correct one and he agreed. So I bought and installed the chrome one with white knob. Shifts great, but no lockout.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:52 pm    Post subject: Re: My new ‘64 Notch comes with questions… Reply with quote

Are you missing the lockout plate, that goes under the shifter?

https://www.csp-shop.de/getriebe/platte-rueckwaertsgangsperre-711-149-111b-12732a.html
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:43 am    Post subject: Re: My new ‘64 Notch comes with questions… Reply with quote

mdege wrote:
Are you missing the lockout plate, that goes under the shifter?

https://www.csp-shop.de/getriebe/platte-rueckwaertsgangsperre-711-149-111b-12732a.html


No. It is there and I have made sure it is on correct with the long ski ramp on the right (correct?).
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:06 am    Post subject: Re: My new ‘64 Notch comes with questions… Reply with quote

Essthreetee wrote:
No. It is there and I have made sure it is on correct with the long ski ramp on the right (correct?).


Sounds correct. I have no idea why it wouldn't work.

It is really only the lockout plate an the ring on the shifter, that rides on the ram.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:07 am    Post subject: Re: My new ‘64 Notch comes with questions… Reply with quote

Are you 100% sure the bushing is tip-top?

If the car has been driven without the shifter bushing in place (some time in the past?) the rod will scrape the metal ring that holds the bushing.
After a while, the scraping throws up a burr.
Unless that burr is cleaned off when the bushing is replaced, the burr will saw through the new bushing in short order.

There are also a lot of aftermarket bushings that are substandard;
They will be made out of this soft rubber-ish plastic that just gives way and flexes when loaded.
Additionally, the bushing could be mostly or partly sawed-thru and look good when peeking in there,
But it's actually splitting and you can't see it doing so.


Avoiding the super crappy crappy bushing sold from most vendors is difficult.
I ended up buying a few from different places before getting a nice stiff/tough hard plastic bushing that was firm, and downright difficult to install in the mounting ring.
Totally different than the ones sold by other vendors..

There's the coupler under the little hatch under the back seat.
That one could be the culprit, but your symptoms don't match.
(Check it anyway).

I'll bet you have one of those sorry aftermarket bushings.

If that's not the culprit, call me stumped.


Oh, and, nice work getting the correct shifter in place.
Looks WAY better than the one you had. Cool
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ataraxia
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:14 am    Post subject: Re: My new ‘64 Notch comes with questions… Reply with quote

Essthreetee wrote:
the PO (or the PPO) added a steel plate to the tunnel just over the shifter.


Any chance you can get a photo of this to help the guesses become more 'educated'? If you're on your third shifter and you're sure it's not the bushing - the only thing left is something getting in the way.

Highly unlikely it's the coupler because you have all forward gears.

If the bushing in the tunnel is a weird beige color and is soft - it's got to be replaced - I've found those are soft and crumble at random. The bushings that have worked for me are hard and white - bordering on translucent. They're a real bitch to get into the hole but they don't move once they're in there.
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