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telford dorr Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2009 Posts: 3555 Location: San Diego (Encinitas)
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Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:10 pm Post subject: Re: Adjusting Voltage Regulator? |
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As a sanity check, try that tach/dwell meter on a different (12 volt) vehicle and see if the readings make sense. _________________ '71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST) |
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maggiolino91 Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2010 Posts: 56 Location: ITALY
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Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:23 am Post subject: |
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perello wrote: |
Thesamba is full of hidden gems....
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Good morning everyone!
Do you have also the next page? Thank you! _________________ 1956 strato silver L227 ragtop
1961 beryl green L478 ragtop
1973 superbeetle pastelweiss L90D |
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EverettB Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000 Posts: 69827 Location: Phoenix Metro
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Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24764 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2021 1:29 pm Post subject: Re: Adjusting Voltage Regulator? |
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carlk3 wrote: |
Which reminds me, where can I find a handheld tachometer that will work with this electrical system? |
The old "sears engine analyzer" are a great tool for the vintage VW, and all have worked on 12 volt or 6 volt systems for us.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trk...e+analyzer
Get one that is not too bulky to stow into your VW, and has the 4-6-8 cylinder selector switch. _________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
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Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24764 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2021 3:54 pm Post subject: Re: Adjusting Voltage Regulator? |
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EverettB wrote: |
That is the only page on the site, is there something missing?
User 2Pack is the one that sent it into the site. |
Think I see what is missing. If you look at the "Mechanical And Electrical Adjustments" which comes in two sections. #1 works with the diagram below it. #2 mentions "(e), (c), & (d)" locations that are not in that same diagram. Have looked for our copy of that manual, and can not find it right now. If someone has their copy at hand, is there another diagram on the next page?? _________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
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carlk3 Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2009 Posts: 201 Location: Longmont, CO
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Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:55 pm Post subject: Re: Adjusting Voltage Regulator? |
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Eric&Barb wrote: |
EverettB wrote: |
That is the only page on the site, is there something missing?
User 2Pack is the one that sent it into the site. |
Think I see what is missing. If you look at the "Mechanical And Electrical Adjustments" which comes in two sections. #1 works with the diagram below it. #2 mentions "(e), (c), & (d)" locations that are not in that same diagram. Have looked for our copy of that manual, and can not find it right now. If someone has their copy at hand, is there another diagram on the next page?? |
I think what's in Glenn's is the same as what is in the Mitchell's pages excerpted at https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7419461#7419461
That said, I think that one reason that adjusting these things is considered a black art is that the only available instructions are terrible. Look at TESTING, CUTOUT RELAY: "Check with battery disconnected. Connect a Voltmeter to terminal 61/D+ (generator terminal) and D+ of generator." How does that make any sense? The voltage between D+ and D+ will always be zero. Disconnect the generator from the terminal? Then there is no input to the regulator and nothing happens. "Connect a variable resistor, adjusted to rated output, to terminal 51/B+ of regulator (battery terminal)". That is pretty unhelpful. I guess they are talking about one of those big carbon pile battery testers. Are you supposed to use the numbers stamped on the regulator and ohm's law to calculate the resistance and set the pile to that? (E.g., 7V 45A would imply 7/45 or ~0.16 ohm.) It seems difficult and pointless. Wouldn't using a headlight bulb as a load resistor be close enough? As a bonus, you can then measure the cut in and cut out voltages on terminal 61/D+ (to ground) by watching when the light comes on and goes out. |
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telford dorr Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2009 Posts: 3555 Location: San Diego (Encinitas)
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Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:04 am Post subject: Re: Adjusting Voltage Regulator? |
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The harbor freight carbon pile (around $50) that I use has both a voltmeter and an ammeter, so you simply adjust for the appropriate readings.
_________________ '71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST) |
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carlk3 Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2009 Posts: 201 Location: Longmont, CO
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Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: Adjusting Voltage Regulator? |
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telford dorr wrote: |
The harbor freight carbon pile (around $50) that I use has both a voltmeter and an ammeter, so you simply adjust for the appropriate readings.
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I still don't understand exactly how I would use that to perform this step: "Connect a variable resistor, adjusted to rated output, to terminal 51/B+ of regulator (battery terminal)". Would I disconnect the battery, attach the pile, then try to rev the generator up to 7V 45A? Or, would I refer to the EARLY BOSCH GENERATOR REGULATOR CHART on page 3-73 and (for my 190 213 032) set Load Volts to 6.4-7.3 and Current Amps to 34? herbie1200 said "I put a 30A fuse on my D+ generator and is newer blowed, so I can be confident that 30A have never been put out from my generator."
Anyway, I don't see the point, if all I'm trying to do is measure cut in voltage. The procedure says "Slowly increase generator RPM, voltage should also increase." (I guess they mean voltage at D+?). "Relay cuts in when voltage drops abruptly." Now, if I understand this correctly, the load is not connected at all until the relay cuts in. So, why do I need a variable resistor, adjusted to rated output? I guess if you are a professional, and have all the right equipment, that might be what you have at hand, but I don't think it matters much what the resistance is.
Measuring the reverse current is really a pain. "Check reverse current (...) by connecting generator to a half charged battery." I don't always have one of those lying around. I guess I need to leave the headlights on until..., um, how do I know when I'm down to half charge? "Increase generator speed to maximum rated RPM..." What is that, exactly? Performing this in the car is going to be tricky. I need to find the spec. on the generator and then calculate the pulley ratio... I hope my engine doesn't mind that RPM. Oh well, I don't even have a tach that works right on 6V. Then, I need to put an ammeter in series with the battery. I was able to do (some approximation of) this test with a (relatively) cheap VOM, but I did blow one 10A fuse in the meter in the process. Again, I wonder if this couldn't be simplified a bit. Does the generator speed really need to be raised to the maximum rated RPM? Isn't it sufficient to get it well above the cut out? |
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telford dorr Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2009 Posts: 3555 Location: San Diego (Encinitas)
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Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:41 pm Post subject: Re: Adjusting Voltage Regulator? |
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carlk3 wrote: |
I still don't understand exactly how I would use that to perform this step: "Connect a variable resistor, adjusted to rated output, to terminal 51/B+ of regulator (battery terminal)". Would I disconnect the battery, attach the pile, then try to rev the generator up to 7V 45A? Or, would I refer to the EARLY BOSCH GENERATOR REGULATOR CHART on page 3-73 and (for my 190 213 032) set Load Volts to 6.4-7.3 and Current Amps to 34? |
Their instructions are based on the fact that, for testing, the requlator output is DISCONNECTED from the bus, and thus has NO load at all, except for what you connect (hence, connection to terminal 51/B+ on the regulator).
Quote: |
Anyway, I don't see the point, if all I'm trying to do is measure cut in voltage. The procedure says "Slowly increase generator RPM, voltage should also increase." (I guess they mean voltage at D+?) [Yup. Bus is disconnected, remember?]. "Relay cuts in when voltage drops abruptly." Now, if I understand this correctly, the load is not connected at all until the relay cuts in. So, why do I need a variable resistor, adjusted to rated output? I guess if you are a professional, and have all the right equipment, that might be what you have at hand, but I don't think it matters much what the resistance is. |
The instructions are for the shop that wants to do a thorough and accurate test of the charging system that they can warranty. That's not you. you just want to get a general idea of how the regulator is performing. You can probably do that just fine with a DVM (although an analog meter will be easier to read, as the voltage is changing). You will need some kind of load (a headlight is probably fine). You increase the engine speed until the headlight illuminates. The voltage just before that is the cut-in voltage.
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Measuring the reverse current is really a pain. "Check reverse current (...) by connecting generator to a half charged battery." I don't always have one of those lying around. I guess I need to leave the headlights on until..., um, how do I know when I'm down to half charge? |
Then you'll just have to use the battery that you've got. [I suspect that they wanted to guarantee that the battery would accept some steady charge.]
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"Increase generator speed to maximum rated RPM..." What is that, exactly? Performing this in the car is going to be tricky. I need to find the spec. on the generator and then calculate the pulley ratio... I hope my engine doesn't mind that RPM. Oh well, I don't even have a tach that works right on 6V. Then, I need to put an ammeter in series with the battery. I was able to do (some approximation of) this test with a (relatively) cheap VOM, but I did blow one 10A fuse in the meter in the process. Again, I wonder if this couldn't be simplified a bit. Does the generator speed really need to be raised to the maximum rated RPM? Isn't it sufficient to get it well above the cut out? |
Probably.
You need a current shunt rated at maybe 50 amps (probably 0.01 ohms at 25 watts; frequently available as surplus electronics). You measure the voltage across it (inside the high current connections) and use ohm's law to calculate the current [50 amps x 0.01 ohms = 0.5 volts, or 0.01 volts per amp].
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Most people would be happy if the generator just charged the battery to a reasonable voltage and disconnected itself when the engine was stopped... _________________ '71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST) |
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carlk3 Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2009 Posts: 201 Location: Longmont, CO
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Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:08 pm Post subject: Re: Adjusting Voltage Regulator? |
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telford dorr wrote: |
...
Most people would be happy if the generator just charged the battery to a reasonable voltage and disconnected itself when the engine was stopped... |
Yeah, I know. And most people that want to take long camping road trips in their old VWs (while keeping a phone charged and usable for navigation) are probably running 12v alternators by now. I haven't given up, yet, though. I'm determined to wring every coulomb I can out of the generator, and I think electronics is the answer. No matter how well tuned, those 2-unit regulators are pretty inefficient. |
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telford dorr Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2009 Posts: 3555 Location: San Diego (Encinitas)
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Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:56 pm Post subject: Re: Adjusting Voltage Regulator? |
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carlk3 wrote: |
Yeah, I know. And most people that want to take long camping road trips in their old VWs (while keeping a phone charged and usable for navigation) are probably running 12v alternators by now. I haven't given up, yet, though. I'm determined to wring every coulomb I can out of the generator, and I think electronics is the answer. No matter how well tuned, those 2-unit regulators are pretty inefficient. |
In that case, your answer lies in mosfets - lowest possible voltage drop - and a voltage boost supply to generate enough gate voltage to turn them on fully. Might as well go the extra step and make a temperature-compensated three stage 'smart' charger that fully charges the battery without overcharging it (constant current -> constant voltage -> float charge). A microcontroller would do all the heavy lifting... Arduino is pretty cheap and easy to work with...
link: battery charging info _________________ '71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST) |
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carlk3 Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2009 Posts: 201 Location: Longmont, CO
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Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:39 pm Post subject: Re: Adjusting Voltage Regulator? |
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telford dorr wrote: |
In that case, your answer lies in mosfets - lowest possible voltage drop - and a voltage boost supply to generate enough gate voltage to turn them on fully.
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I agree. I started on a design a while back: https://www.electro-tech-online.com/threads/automo...or.159967/ but then I got pulled off on other projects and I am just now getting back to it.
telford dorr wrote: |
Might as well go the extra step and make a temperature-compensated three
stage 'smart' charger that fully charges the battery without overcharging it (constant current -> constant voltage -> float charge). A microcontroller would do all the heavy lifting... Arduino is pretty cheap and easy to work with...
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My goal is to make it fully programmable. I don't have any way to measure battery temperature, though; another goal is to make it a drop in replacement for the stock regulator.
Looking at the Two-unit TA Regulator Curve at https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9251212#9251212 it occurred to me that there is definitely some low-hanging fruit here. Somewhere I found a discussion about three-unit regulators and realized that the two-unit sacrifices efficiency for simplicity. You could get some pretty good gains just by emulating the three-unit curve. But, my theory is that what you really want to limit is the power. (For example, for my 7V 45A generator I think it should be limited to 180 watts.) The heat produced in the generator and the battery should be roughly proportional to the power, right? In that case, you would run at the upper limit of voltage or current (whichever is the limiting factor) unless the product of voltage and current exceeds the power limit, in which case you reduce the voltage to stay within the envelope.
Interesting article! Some of that could be a "simple matter of programming." |
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carlk3 Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2009 Posts: 201 Location: Longmont, CO
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Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:49 pm Post subject: Re: Adjusting Voltage Regulator? |
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telford dorr wrote: |
carlk3 wrote: |
I still don't understand exactly how I would use that to perform this step: "Connect a variable resistor, adjusted to rated output, to terminal 51/B+ of regulator (battery terminal)". Would I disconnect the battery, attach the pile, then try to rev the generator up to 7V 45A? Or, would I refer to the EARLY BOSCH GENERATOR REGULATOR CHART on page 3-73 and (for my 190 213 032) set Load Volts to 6.4-7.3 and Current Amps to 34? |
Their instructions are based on the fact that, for testing, the requlator output is DISCONNECTED from the bus, and thus has NO load at all, except for what you connect (hence, connection to terminal 51/B+ on the regulator).
Quote: |
Anyway, I don't see the point, if all I'm trying to do is measure cut in voltage. The procedure says "Slowly increase generator RPM, voltage should also increase." (I guess they mean voltage at D+?) [Yup. Bus is disconnected, remember?]. "Relay cuts in when voltage drops abruptly." Now, if I understand this correctly, the load is not connected at all until the relay cuts in. So, why do I need a variable resistor, adjusted to rated output? I guess if you are a professional, and have all the right equipment, that might be what you have at hand, but I don't think it matters much what the resistance is. |
The instructions are for the shop that wants to do a thorough and accurate test of the charging system that they can warranty. That's not you. you just want to get a general idea of how the regulator is performing. You can probably do that just fine with a DVM (although an analog meter will be easier to read, as the voltage is changing). You will need some kind of load (a headlight is probably fine). You increase the engine speed until the headlight illuminates. The voltage just before that is the cut-in voltage.
... |
My point is that until the cut in voltage is reached, there is an open circuit between D+ and B+, so it doesn't matter what's connected to B+ when you are observing the cut in voltage (prior to the cut in which connects D+ and B+). So the requirement for "a variable resistor, adjusted to rated output" is kinda over specified (and difficult for amateurs like me to satisfy). |
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Danwvw Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012 Posts: 8892 Location: Oregon Coast
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Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:31 pm Post subject: Re: Adjusting Voltage Regulator? |
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Clara wrote: |
The charging system in the '56 westy emits 6.4 volts. I believe a 6V system is supposed to charge at about 7 V, and well, this one doesn't. Extended use of lights and eberspacher while parked with engine off seemed to drain the year and a half old optima battery.
BTW, the brushes in the generator are good. I also cleaned the commutator with a nail file as per Muir's Idiot Book, and it is all shiny.
It was suggested to adjust the points in the regulator to increase the voltage... testing it with a voltmeter to confirm the adjustment is correct...anyone done this? |
Sounds like a bad Regulator or Generator or something!
It's been my experience that once mechanical regulators get off there is not much chance in making them work well again. Some might!
I figured out how to fix the problem though and a good 6 volt generator is capable of 9 volts. This schematic is for 7 volts.
_________________ 1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
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SneakyB Samba Member
Joined: June 15, 2023 Posts: 2 Location: California
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Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: Adjusting Voltage Regulator? |
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I know this is an ancient thread, but, I just wanted to let you all know how useful it has been. I don't own a VW, never have.
But I DO own a '78 Harley Ironhead Sportster that I have been building from the ground up and Harley also utilizes the same Bosch regulator.
I have been searching high and low for information on how to adjust, and, see detailed information on this thing with no luck.
Who would have known you could find help for your Harley on a VW site??
Good work and thanks for all the input and detail you all went into on this subject.
Saved me a huge headache!!
Thanks again! |
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BarryL Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2004 Posts: 14269 Location: Casa de Oro, California
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Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 6:33 pm Post subject: Re: Adjusting Voltage Regulator? |
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SneakyB wrote: |
But I DO own a '78 Harley Ironhead Sportster that I have been building from the ground up and Harley also utilizes the same Bosch regulator....Who would have known you could find help for your Harley on a VW site?? |
They're both cool and air-cooled so there is that. |
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SneakyB Samba Member
Joined: June 15, 2023 Posts: 2 Location: California
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Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 10:26 pm Post subject: Re: Adjusting Voltage Regulator? |
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BarryL wrote: |
They're both cool and air-cooled so there is that. |
This is true... |
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