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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12688 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:05 pm Post subject: Re: Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ |
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Some NICE stuff coming out of the UK, seems to be Facebook exclusive for now...
Are those Vanagon rubber mounts?
_________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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RWK Samba Member
Joined: June 24, 2009 Posts: 1337 Location: S.W. MI
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Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:38 am Post subject: Re: Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ |
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Here are some pics of the conversion tin, purchased these in Cancun Mex. in the mid 80s at the dealership.
_________________ 73 Type 181
63 Type 113
63 Type 261- 428 071
62 Type 241-378 025 178 530 |
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brandt Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2004 Posts: 364 Location: S. Utah
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Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:44 am Post subject: Re: Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ |
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I'm contemplating making this swap in a 77 even though it seems counter intuitive.
What still seems not well detailed in this thread is how to set up the generator/alternator. I've only had Type 4 powered with alternators and I'm only now, after 27 years of on and off bus ownership, learning about type 1 engines. Aren't most type 1 engines set up with generators?
Any consensus on what the best type 1 build specs for a bus are? 1600 stock dual port? 1776? Full flow oil? Heavy duty aluminum case? |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51057 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:17 am Post subject: Re: Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ |
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Internally regulated alternators are very common on type 1's, easy to install when it's out of the bus.
As for the build?, depends on your wallet, added bore and stroke is always handy. _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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richparker Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2011 Posts: 6936 Location: Durango, CO
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Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ |
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brandt wrote: |
I'm contemplating making this swap in a 77 even though it seems counter intuitive.
Any consensus on what the best type 1 build specs for a bus are? 1600 stock dual port? 1776? Full flow oil? Heavy duty aluminum case? |
Late bays are heavier then the early bays that used the type 1 and they use the 091 transaxle with has a taller R&P then the early bay 002 transaxle. I would think you’d want to go with something like a dual carbed 2175cc. This would match better with the 091 and have the power to ouch the heavy bus around. _________________ __________
’71 Westy build
Adventure thread
’65 Deluxe Build |
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brandt Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2004 Posts: 364 Location: S. Utah
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Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:26 pm Post subject: Re: Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ |
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Thanks!
I failed to mention I have a spare 002 transaxle from a 72 bus as well as the 091 so I have options. I was about to commit to a type 4 so perhaps a bigger type 1 will seem affordable. I just wasn’t sure if a built up type 1 would cool as well as say a stock set up like the 71 came with. Seems to be mixed opinions in the archives like most other topics.
Right now I’m tempted to just go a full stock 1600 dual port with a single carb for simplicity. I just want the bus to move, no freeways anywhere me. Dirt road camping rig... |
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brandt Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2004 Posts: 364 Location: S. Utah
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Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:37 pm Post subject: Re: Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ |
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I was too slow on this complete kit a week ago. It was $200 plus shipping. But I thought a photo should go in this thread. Are those smaller bits of tin just standard easy to find bits? |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51057 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:40 pm Post subject: Re: Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ |
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Enhanced engines cool well too, as long as you avoid the chrome and billet stuff and stick with real German tins and good parts. Proper tuning and careful building also helps prolong it's life.
A 1600 with an 002 will push it around fine as well, just don't be in a big hurry to get anywhere. _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16926 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:27 pm Post subject: Re: Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ |
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Here's the deal.
Try to match the HP of the T1 engine to what originally came in your bus with the T4. Keep the 091 because it's a much better transmission than the 002. So, if you have a big enough engine you shouldn't have any trouble pushing the bus with a great 091 transmission even at freeway speeds.
Next, I'd suggest you go big but not too big on the engine. A two liter is about right. That's a 2007cc. Keep in mind that as you go bigger you create more strain on engine parts and more HEAT.
You'll need the fiberglass conversion tin that's available new. Can't remember the vendor.
You might want a rear mustache bar. I have one you can buy but since I spent over $200 for it several years ago I won't be giving it away cheap.
You may want an external oil system which includes filter and cooler. You may not need an electric fan and that can be added later if you want.
You'll need to have dual carbs in order to get the HP out of that big engine. Buy a new set of Webers from Aircooled.net and pay the extra $80 to have them set up for your displacement. It's money well spent. Don't buy cheap linkage. The CB Performance linkage is good enough and the Redline linkage sucks.
Don't worry about the alternator/generator. Either way you go is easy. If you buy an alternator DO NOT buy a cheap Chinese one. You probably don't need more than about 55 amps. Alternators are more reliable than generators. You can buy a kit that has everything including the stand and backing plate. Some of these are Bosch which is the way to go.
Do not mount the cooler in the engine bay. Don't forget to cut off the tranny input shaft 3/8" or it will hit the crankshaft and ruin your engine. If you need detailed info and pictures, send me a PM. _________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12688 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:34 am Post subject: Re: Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ |
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I don't even have to type a message here for y'all to know what it would say.
😘
Robbie
(The alternator hookup on a converted bus: big connector to battery or starter, small connector to blue wire. Drive on.) _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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NASkeet Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2006 Posts: 2947 Location: South Benfleet, Essex, UK
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Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:12 am Post subject: Re: Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ |
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I sold virtually all of the tinware decades ago, including the DIY-modified, large rear cover-plate with a tunnel for the hand-cranking starting handle.
I still have in my 1973 VW 1600 Type 2 swop-box, the genuine engine-support beam, chassis mounting brackets, bushes and associated hardware, plus a genuine VW Type 1 alternator stand cum oil filler. I also have a modified fuel-pump spacer cum push-rod guide, which enables one to use the dynamo-associated fuel pump rather than an alternator-associated fuel pump. There might be a few other odds & ends, but I cannot remember what. _________________ Regards.
Nigel A. Skeet
Independent tutor (semi-retired) of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.
Much modified, RHD 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental campervan, with the World's only decent, cross-over-arm, SWF pantograph rear-window wiper
Onetime member, plus former Technical Editor & Editor of Transporter Talk magazine
Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club (Great Britain)
http://www.vwt2oc.net |
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NASkeet Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2006 Posts: 2947 Location: South Benfleet, Essex, UK
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Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:52 am Post subject: Re: Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ |
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aeromech wrote: |
Here's the deal.
Try to match the HP of the T1 engine to what originally came in your bus with the T4. Keep the 091 because it's a much better transmission than the 002. So, if you have a big enough engine you shouldn't have any trouble pushing the bus with a great 091 transmission even at freeway speeds.
Next, I'd suggest you go big but not too big on the engine. A two liter is about right. That's a 2007cc. Keep in mind that as you go bigger you create more strain on engine parts and more HEAT.
You'll need the fiberglass conversion tin that's available new. Can't remember the vendor.
You might want a rear mustache bar. I have one you can buy but since I spent over $200 for it several years ago I won't be giving it away cheap.
You may want an external oil system which includes filter and cooler. You may not need an electric fan and that can be added later if you want.
You'll need to have dual carbs in order to get the HP out of that big engine. Buy a new set of Webers from Aircooled.net and pay the extra $80 to have them set up for your displacement. It's money well spent. Don't buy cheap linkage. The CB Performance linkage is good enough and the Redline linkage sucks.
Don't worry about the alternator/generator. Either way you go is easy. If you buy an alternator DO NOT buy a cheap Chinese one. You probably don't need more than about 55 amps. Alternators are more reliable than generators. You can buy a kit that has everything including the stand and backing plate. Some of these are Bosch which is the way to go.
Do not mount the cooler in the engine bay. Don't forget to cut off the tranny input shaft 3/8" or it will hit the crankshaft and ruin your engine. If you need detailed info and pictures, send me a PM. |
If one had to pay shipping from Europe to the USA on that 1972~79 VW 1600 Type 2 "moustache bar" and asociated chassis-attacment brackets, it could certainly work out expensive! I wonder what it would cost to ship mine!?! _________________ Regards.
Nigel A. Skeet
Independent tutor (semi-retired) of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.
Much modified, RHD 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental campervan, with the World's only decent, cross-over-arm, SWF pantograph rear-window wiper
Onetime member, plus former Technical Editor & Editor of Transporter Talk magazine
Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club (Great Britain)
http://www.vwt2oc.net |
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k@rlos Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2012 Posts: 485 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:54 pm Post subject: Re: Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ |
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Great write up, the type 1/late bus tinware is hard enough to find here in the U.K, let alone in the US only thing object too is the oil pump adaptor mount things. They are a bad idea. Make the oil pump leak and those little M8 studs aren’t meant to support the weight of an engine |
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16926 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:52 pm Post subject: Re: Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ |
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That’s only for cases that were not “universal”. The T2 or universal cases don’t use the oil pump like you mentioned. _________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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NASkeet Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2006 Posts: 2947 Location: South Benfleet, Essex, UK
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Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:53 am Post subject: Re: Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ |
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k@rlos wrote: |
Great write up, the type 1/late bus tinware is hard enough to find here in the U.K, let alone in the US only thing object too is the oil pump adaptor mount things. They are a bad idea. Make the oil pump leak and those little M8 studs aren’t meant to support the weight of an engine |
For those who don't have the "universal" VW Type 1 style engine crankcase, this variety of adapter might be more appropriate:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=341184
The cast metal adapter, which straddles the bottom of the crankase-joint flanges, uses two, longer replacement M8 crankcase parting-line bolts.
This is preferable to the more common steel plate, which replaces the oil-pump cover and uses the oil-pump attachment studs.
The picture was originally presented in the new products page, of a British VW magazine, as follows:
"Crankcase Converter", Products, VW Motoring, February 1999, Page 80.
Back in 1999, it was available from:
Small Car, in Camberley, Surrey, England (Tel. +44 1276 29595) _________________ Regards.
Nigel A. Skeet
Independent tutor (semi-retired) of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.
Much modified, RHD 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental campervan, with the World's only decent, cross-over-arm, SWF pantograph rear-window wiper
Onetime member, plus former Technical Editor & Editor of Transporter Talk magazine
Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club (Great Britain)
http://www.vwt2oc.net |
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denglish Samba Member
Joined: September 09, 2008 Posts: 9 Location: Arkansas
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Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:53 am Post subject: Re: Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ |
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When shortening the input shaft for this setup, how long should the input shaft be when you are done cutting? I know the article says to cut 11 mm off, but my project has had some cut off already and I can't just cut another 11 mm off of that. Do you know how much input shaft should be left after cutting? Thank you for your help. |
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16926 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:50 am Post subject: Re: Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ |
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I don’t. Try to measure the distance on your engine from the bell housing mating flange to the inside of the crankshaft. All the way up through the pilot bearing.
Then measure from the tip of the input shaft to the bell housing flange on the tranny. You don’t want the input shaft to bottom out inside the crank. _________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12688 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:41 am Post subject: Re: Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ |
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A new pre-machined input shaft is available from Weddle, no guessing or polishing of your shaft required.
Robbie _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51057 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:54 am Post subject: Re: Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ |
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A type 1 shaft protrudes 16mm past the face of the bellhousing, at least on a couple I measured. _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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denglish Samba Member
Joined: September 09, 2008 Posts: 9 Location: Arkansas
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Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:54 pm Post subject: Re: Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ |
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16 mm. Got it. Thank you so much! |
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