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Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ
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airschooled
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ Reply with quote

Some NICE stuff coming out of the UK, seems to be Facebook exclusive for now...

Are those Vanagon rubber mounts?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:38 am    Post subject: Re: Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ Reply with quote

Here are some pics of the conversion tin, purchased these in Cancun Mex. in the mid 80s at the dealership.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:44 am    Post subject: Re: Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ Reply with quote

I'm contemplating making this swap in a 77 even though it seems counter intuitive.

What still seems not well detailed in this thread is how to set up the generator/alternator. I've only had Type 4 powered with alternators and I'm only now, after 27 years of on and off bus ownership, learning about type 1 engines. Aren't most type 1 engines set up with generators?

Any consensus on what the best type 1 build specs for a bus are? 1600 stock dual port? 1776? Full flow oil? Heavy duty aluminum case?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:17 am    Post subject: Re: Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ Reply with quote

Internally regulated alternators are very common on type 1's, easy to install when it's out of the bus.

As for the build?, depends on your wallet, added bore and stroke is always handy.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ Reply with quote

brandt wrote:
I'm contemplating making this swap in a 77 even though it seems counter intuitive.

Any consensus on what the best type 1 build specs for a bus are? 1600 stock dual port? 1776? Full flow oil? Heavy duty aluminum case?


Late bays are heavier then the early bays that used the type 1 and they use the 091 transaxle with has a taller R&P then the early bay 002 transaxle. I would think you’d want to go with something like a dual carbed 2175cc. This would match better with the 091 and have the power to ouch the heavy bus around.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ Reply with quote

Thanks!

I failed to mention I have a spare 002 transaxle from a 72 bus as well as the 091 so I have options. I was about to commit to a type 4 so perhaps a bigger type 1 will seem affordable. I just wasn’t sure if a built up type 1 would cool as well as say a stock set up like the 71 came with. Seems to be mixed opinions in the archives like most other topics.

Right now I’m tempted to just go a full stock 1600 dual port with a single carb for simplicity. I just want the bus to move, no freeways anywhere me. Dirt road camping rig...
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ Reply with quote

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I was too slow on this complete kit a week ago. It was $200 plus shipping. But I thought a photo should go in this thread. Are those smaller bits of tin just standard easy to find bits?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ Reply with quote

Enhanced engines cool well too, as long as you avoid the chrome and billet stuff and stick with real German tins and good parts. Proper tuning and careful building also helps prolong it's life.

A 1600 with an 002 will push it around fine as well, just don't be in a big hurry to get anywhere. Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ Reply with quote

Here's the deal.

Try to match the HP of the T1 engine to what originally came in your bus with the T4. Keep the 091 because it's a much better transmission than the 002. So, if you have a big enough engine you shouldn't have any trouble pushing the bus with a great 091 transmission even at freeway speeds.

Next, I'd suggest you go big but not too big on the engine. A two liter is about right. That's a 2007cc. Keep in mind that as you go bigger you create more strain on engine parts and more HEAT.

You'll need the fiberglass conversion tin that's available new. Can't remember the vendor.

You might want a rear mustache bar. I have one you can buy but since I spent over $200 for it several years ago I won't be giving it away cheap.

You may want an external oil system which includes filter and cooler. You may not need an electric fan and that can be added later if you want.

You'll need to have dual carbs in order to get the HP out of that big engine. Buy a new set of Webers from Aircooled.net and pay the extra $80 to have them set up for your displacement. It's money well spent. Don't buy cheap linkage. The CB Performance linkage is good enough and the Redline linkage sucks.

Don't worry about the alternator/generator. Either way you go is easy. If you buy an alternator DO NOT buy a cheap Chinese one. You probably don't need more than about 55 amps. Alternators are more reliable than generators. You can buy a kit that has everything including the stand and backing plate. Some of these are Bosch which is the way to go.

Do not mount the cooler in the engine bay. Don't forget to cut off the tranny input shaft 3/8" or it will hit the crankshaft and ruin your engine. If you need detailed info and pictures, send me a PM.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:34 am    Post subject: Re: Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ Reply with quote

I don't even have to type a message here for y'all to know what it would say.

😘

Robbie

(The alternator hookup on a converted bus: big connector to battery or starter, small connector to blue wire. Drive on.)
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:12 am    Post subject: Re: Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ Reply with quote

I sold virtually all of the tinware decades ago, including the DIY-modified, large rear cover-plate with a tunnel for the hand-cranking starting handle. Very Happy Cool

I still have in my 1973 VW 1600 Type 2 swop-box, the genuine engine-support beam, chassis mounting brackets, bushes and associated hardware, plus a genuine VW Type 1 alternator stand cum oil filler. I also have a modified fuel-pump spacer cum push-rod guide, which enables one to use the dynamo-associated fuel pump rather than an alternator-associated fuel pump. There might be a few other odds & ends, but I cannot remember what.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:52 am    Post subject: Re: Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ Reply with quote

aeromech wrote:
Here's the deal.

Try to match the HP of the T1 engine to what originally came in your bus with the T4. Keep the 091 because it's a much better transmission than the 002. So, if you have a big enough engine you shouldn't have any trouble pushing the bus with a great 091 transmission even at freeway speeds.

Next, I'd suggest you go big but not too big on the engine. A two liter is about right. That's a 2007cc. Keep in mind that as you go bigger you create more strain on engine parts and more HEAT.

You'll need the fiberglass conversion tin that's available new. Can't remember the vendor.

You might want a rear mustache bar. I have one you can buy but since I spent over $200 for it several years ago I won't be giving it away cheap.

You may want an external oil system which includes filter and cooler. You may not need an electric fan and that can be added later if you want.

You'll need to have dual carbs in order to get the HP out of that big engine. Buy a new set of Webers from Aircooled.net and pay the extra $80 to have them set up for your displacement. It's money well spent. Don't buy cheap linkage. The CB Performance linkage is good enough and the Redline linkage sucks.

Don't worry about the alternator/generator. Either way you go is easy. If you buy an alternator DO NOT buy a cheap Chinese one. You probably don't need more than about 55 amps. Alternators are more reliable than generators. You can buy a kit that has everything including the stand and backing plate. Some of these are Bosch which is the way to go.

Do not mount the cooler in the engine bay. Don't forget to cut off the tranny input shaft 3/8" or it will hit the crankshaft and ruin your engine. If you need detailed info and pictures, send me a PM.


If one had to pay shipping from Europe to the USA on that 1972~79 VW 1600 Type 2 "moustache bar" and asociated chassis-attacment brackets, it could certainly work out expensive! I wonder what it would cost to ship mine!?!
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Onetime member, plus former Technical Editor & Editor of Transporter Talk magazine
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ Reply with quote

Great write up, the type 1/late bus tinware is hard enough to find here in the U.K, let alone in the US Shocked only thing object too is the oil pump adaptor mount things. They are a bad idea. Make the oil pump leak and those little M8 studs aren’t meant to support the weight of an engine
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ Reply with quote

That’s only for cases that were not “universal”. The T2 or universal cases don’t use the oil pump like you mentioned.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:53 am    Post subject: Re: Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ Reply with quote

k@rlos wrote:
Great write up, the type 1/late bus tinware is hard enough to find here in the U.K, let alone in the US Shocked only thing object too is the oil pump adaptor mount things. They are a bad idea. Make the oil pump leak and those little M8 studs aren’t meant to support the weight of an engine


For those who don't have the "universal" VW Type 1 style engine crankcase, this variety of adapter might be more appropriate:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=341184

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The cast metal adapter, which straddles the bottom of the crankase-joint flanges, uses two, longer replacement M8 crankcase parting-line bolts.

This is preferable to the more common steel plate, which replaces the oil-pump cover and uses the oil-pump attachment studs.

The picture was originally presented in the new products page, of a British VW magazine, as follows:

"Crankcase Converter", Products, VW Motoring, February 1999, Page 80.

Back in 1999, it was available from:

Small Car, in Camberley, Surrey, England (Tel. +44 1276 29595)
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:53 am    Post subject: Re: Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ Reply with quote

When shortening the input shaft for this setup, how long should the input shaft be when you are done cutting? I know the article says to cut 11 mm off, but my project has had some cut off already and I can't just cut another 11 mm off of that. Do you know how much input shaft should be left after cutting? Thank you for your help.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:50 am    Post subject: Re: Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ Reply with quote

I don’t. Try to measure the distance on your engine from the bell housing mating flange to the inside of the crankshaft. All the way up through the pilot bearing.

Then measure from the tip of the input shaft to the bell housing flange on the tranny. You don’t want the input shaft to bottom out inside the crank.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:41 am    Post subject: Re: Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ Reply with quote

A new pre-machined input shaft is available from Weddle, no guessing or polishing of your shaft required.

Robbie
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:54 am    Post subject: Re: Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ Reply with quote

A type 1 shaft protrudes 16mm past the face of the bellhousing, at least on a couple I measured.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ Reply with quote

16 mm. Got it. Thank you so much!
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