Square????

[L8ndeb]

Hello All,

Just thinking about builds and such the other night, and I started thinking about the cut and shortening process and final results. I was wondering, how far out of square can the chassis be, before running into issues that can't be fixed by moving stuff around (front beam, rear axles, etc)?

TIA

[Dale M.]

There is no reason to be out of square..... A tape measure and a little care can get you to within 1/4 inch (+/-) (or less) ....

Get it to much out of square and it will just go down to road at a crab angle and look silly to people following....

Get chassis to much our of square and its going to be tough to get body to fit correctly....
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.

"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ...

[L8ndeb]

Hi Dale,

You're right saying that there is no reason for it to be out. But I have read elsewhere about buggies going down the road at an angle, etc., as a result of poor measuring, welding heat, not clamped properly during welding, etc. I'm just wondering how far out they are? And would the only fix would be to tear the buggy down and cut in into again? Or can it be fixed by moving atound the rear axles, front beam and such?

[jspbtown]

No...you can't "move around" the front or rear axles to correct a twisted frame.

[L8ndeb]

jspbtown, thanks for your input. I'm wondering though, with a swing axle let's say, there are adjustments you can do forward and back with the rear axles, and can't you shim (slightly of course) one side of the front beam to help with an out of square chassis?

Just looking for opinions.

[slalombuggy]

How far out? Fk all to nothin is ideal. You can "correct" for a twisted chassis, but it won't ever handle the same. I know chassis builders who measure in thousandths of an inch and my 2 tube frame cars are for all intents and purposes square.

Even if you shim, you still have a car going sideways down the road. 1/4" out of square is HUGE. I changed the frame head from balljoint to link pin AND raised the rear torsion housing 3 1/2" on my 57 beetle and was 1/16" out of square. And I used nothing more than straight edges, levels and tape measures on my shop floor to do it.

When welding. TAKE YOUR TIME. Alternate sides that you are welding on and keep each weld relatively short. I never weld more than 2" at a time. And give things time to cool a bit before returning to that side again. This will keep the heat from pulling the center tube in any direction.

It is far easier to build it square than mess around with a twisted piece of shit, grinding slots and making custom shims. And chances are if you just hack it together, itll be twisted on its center axis as well which brings an entirely different set of issues.

You wouldn't build a house on a crooked foundation, why would you build a car on a crooked chassis.

brad

[oprn]

If you are cutting down a floor pan and re- welding it, by all means take every precaution to get it square and twist free. It makes life so much easier down the road when fitting the body on and getting a good wheel alignment. The car will drive so much better.

Are all Buggies out there that you might buy perfectly square? Absolutely not! In fact I would venture to say that not that many are. Just like houses (talk to any framer, they will tell you) and that is one of the reasons suspensions have adjustments. Yes there are things you can do to correct for minor misalignment. It’s shouldn’t necessarily be a deal breaker on a Buggy unless the problem is large and obvious. It all depends on your skill level or how much you are willing to pay someone else to correct it.

As a body man who spent many years on the frame rack I can tell you horror stories about cars right from the factory that are badly out of square. Most people driving them have no idea and in most cases it really doesn’t cause a big problem. Being what I am I often watch for dog tracking while in the traffic and you would be amazed at how many cars do!

As for houses, if you have ever done any serious renovations to a house you know that it is very rare indeed to find a perfectly square one!
_________________
We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age)

[oprn]

I was once given a new car to check out that had a serious dog tracking issue. It was a full sized luxury car, Buick or Olds, I don’t remember. It was bad enough that it made 4 independent tire tracks in the snow and the outside mirrors ran out of adjustment. The dealer had several other estimates from $3K to $5K to fix it with one shop saying it was not possible.

I put a set of frame gauges on it and like the other shops found that nothing really lined up properly. On a walk around though all the panels and doors lined up reasonably well, not perfect but acceptable. There are lots of adjustment options on those cars for aligning the body and someone at the factory made very good use of them all!

To make a long story short I also found enough adjustments in the suspension and steering to send that car back driving pretty straight and never heard anymore from the owner.
_________________
We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age)

[Dale M.]

Want to build a car square, these two measurement are the most important, once they are the same (equal) then you chassis will be "square" ( at least in good alignment for street driving, handling)... Just be sure you use the same "points" on each side, once you have it properly setup, weld it up, but be care with welding process (as Slalombuggy says) that you don't pull it out of alignment...

_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.

"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ...

[oprn]

That is an excellent start Dale M but there are two other measurements that need to be made as well. The wheel base needs to be the same on both sides and you need to compare the front of the pan to the rear for a horizontal twist.
_________________
We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age)

[Dale M.]

MY experience is if "X" measurement is equal, wheel base will be same on both sides (as long as no bends in beams)

For chassis twist I usually lay a piece of conduit a cross front and read shock towers and do a visual for parallel ...
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.

"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ...

[oprn]

[clonebug]

I squared my rear up by triangulating off a mark on the center of the firewall support. There is a rivet hole that was perfectly centered and using that made the rear square without worrying about a bent frame head or beam.

Once you have that square you can check the beam or framehead off the same spots you used on the rear. I used one of the body bolt holes in the rear suspension.
I worked for me since i have a great driving buggy that's been rock solid for many years.
_________________

[Dale M.]

[Dale M.]

[slalombuggy]

You nailed it on the X Dimensions Dale. If your cross measurements are the same, but your wheelbase is different, whatever is bolted to the chassis is at fault.

OPRN, not slagging your work, but if I owned a new car that was that messed up and was fixed so it went down the road "pretty straight" I'd be on the phone to Headquarters demanding a new car after I was done screaming at the service manager.

When I worked at a GM dealer we sent 2 cars back, both Oldsmobile 98s , because they were less than a year old and already had more than 200 hours of shop time charged to them.

[L8ndeb]

Thanks to all that have replied so far. This is the kind of discussion I wanted to get started. Some VERY good information here.

Anybody else wish to chime in?

[oprn]

For all you doubters look up trapezoid. I built one out of sticks here to illustrate it but my laptop is down and I can’t seem to upload pictures from my phone to the site.
_________________
We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age)

[oprn]

[y2kbaja]

I think the pan/buggy I bought has a banana bow to it. I test fit the body and the rear tray hit the bell housing. I since made a 1.5" body lift to clear but the only thing I can think of is a bow in the chassis. This pan has never had a buggy body on it. PO was working on it when he gave up...chassis was done.