Ratio Rocker Install Issues

[Silverghost500]

I'm having a lot of trouble installing these ratio rockers correctly, and hopefully ya'll can help me figure out what I'm doing wrong and how to correct it.

The OEM valve train looked pretty even on the left and right side cylinder heads. With these new rockers the left side geometry looks different than the right side. By that I mean some of the rocker arms on the push rod cup side are sticking out higher than I think they should. I've checked and rechecked that the push rods are sitting in the lifter cups and the push rod cups.

I should be able to turn the push rods (as best as I can with oily hands and components) in the lifter cups and the rocker arm push rod cups when both valves on a cylinder are closed, right? Some I can, some I can't. Even with the push rod cup adjustment screw backed all the way out.

Also, those of you who run ratio rockers on your water boxers, did you have to switch to aluminum valve covers for clearance, or where you able to still use the OEM stamped steel covers?
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1986 Volkswagen Vanagon Westfalia "Von Westy"
Honda K24A converversion-Road Testing Phase
3-Speed Automatic

Von Westy YouTube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbhyZYxJEQrUuLnMbLleeIA

[Wildthings]

Pictures

If one or more lifters are positioned to open the valves and you adjust the screws to get lash then the screws will be sticking way out.

[Howesight]

Adjusting ratio-rockers for correct geometry requires you to adjust three or four parameters, assuming that the lifters are filled with oil and have no entrapped air:

1. You adjust the rocker shaft pedestal height with shims;

2. You adjust pushrod length;

3. You adjust the shims between the rockers and the rocker stands for lateral location.

4. You can use lash caps on the valve stems to enlarge the contact area and adjust the geometry further.

The goal is to address the sliding action of the rocker tip over the valve stem. Ideally, you adjust the above parameters so the the sliding action of the rocker tip, from the lowest contact area on the valve stem ("lowest" being in relation to the top and bottom of the cylinder head) to the highest contact area, is adjusted so that the center of the valve stem is contacted at one-half of the total travel of the rocker tip over the valve stem. Additionally, you need to adjust the four parameters so that the movement of the rocker tip pushes against the valve stem tip (or lash cap) as close as possible to the angle of the valve stem at one half total lift.


The problems you describe with differing heights may be due to lifters that are not fully bled.

See here how CB Performance does this:
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2...egUIARC0AQ
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'86 Syncro Westy SVX

[CessnaJon]

X2 what Howesight said . Sounds like some of your lifters are pumped up solid, while others are not. When setting the preload on the spongy lifters, you will need to feel when the pushrod has zero lash. This will be a subtle resistance as compared to the lifters that are pumped up.
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1973 Westy (shared birthday)
1990 Westy Multivan
2015 Passat TDI 6sp
2015 Sportwagon TDI 6sp
LR-JET, Gulfstream 159

[Silverghost500]

Sorry no pics. Sliced hand after 1st post when tool slipped and punched engine fin.

#4 exhaust lash cap came off. Took rockers back off to put cap back on. Now, rockers won't go back on. Won't go flush to cylinder head.

Issue might be push rods. Now none will stay in lifter buckets. #4 intake sticks out the most. Even with adjusters backed all the way out.

Kit did not come with shims. Just lash caps and precut rods.

Had to stop work to stop the bleeding. Will pick up again tomorrow.
_________________
1986 Volkswagen Vanagon Westfalia "Von Westy"
Honda K24A converversion-Road Testing Phase
3-Speed Automatic

Von Westy YouTube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbhyZYxJEQrUuLnMbLleeIA

[Silverghost500]

Checked length difference between orig push rod and rods supplied with kit. New rods around 10mm shorter.
_________________
1986 Volkswagen Vanagon Westfalia "Von Westy"
Honda K24A converversion-Road Testing Phase
3-Speed Automatic

Von Westy YouTube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbhyZYxJEQrUuLnMbLleeIA

[Silverghost500]

When I'm able I'll try a technique I found here on Samba about push rods. The suggestion was to work on cylinders 1-2. Get #1 to 90 degrees BTDC. That's supposed to be where the lifters are the lowest. When that side's done get #3 to 90 degrees BTDC and repeat.

I've got a message in to the vendor about my fitment issues. The previous 1.25 rocker kit they offered had rocker pedestal shims included, and I'm wondering if this kit should have them as well.
_________________
1986 Volkswagen Vanagon Westfalia "Von Westy"
Honda K24A converversion-Road Testing Phase
3-Speed Automatic

Von Westy YouTube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbhyZYxJEQrUuLnMbLleeIA

[Wildthings]

[Silverghost500]

Thanks Wildthings! The part about 90 degrees BTDC would just be for (hopefully ) an easier fitment of the pushrods between lifters and rocker cup.

I agree with your suggestions on the sequence of adjusting the valves. I've printed of a timing degree wheel that will hopefully aid in all of the above.

Now, if I can only get this hand to super heal quickly so I can get on with the show!
_________________
1986 Volkswagen Vanagon Westfalia "Von Westy"
Honda K24A converversion-Road Testing Phase
3-Speed Automatic

Von Westy YouTube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbhyZYxJEQrUuLnMbLleeIA

[Silverghost500]

Should I order up some different thickness shims for the rocker pedestals and have them on hand just in case? It seems the previous 1.25:1 kit by Marco included them.
_________________
1986 Volkswagen Vanagon Westfalia "Von Westy"
Honda K24A converversion-Road Testing Phase
3-Speed Automatic

Von Westy YouTube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbhyZYxJEQrUuLnMbLleeIA

[Wildthings]

[Silverghost500]

Got under the van and realized some push rods were riding the lifter edges instead of being in the lifters. Took the rockers off, put the engine 90 degrees BTDC on cylinders 1 and 3 like I mentioned earlier, and that did help recess the lifters deeper, which made fitment of pushrods and rockers easier. I did have to resort to using some rubber grommets as wedges between the cylinder and pushrods to keep them from falling out as I refit the rockers. Yes, I remembered to take the rubber grommets out before proceeding.

The adjusters on this kit are Allen head rather than flat blade screw type. I did 1 1/2 turns on the adjusters. Put the OEM valve covers back on and started the engine. It cranked over and ran. I do believe it needs 2 turns instead of 1 1/2 on this engine. I think there's some interference with the OEM valve covers still. I have aluminum covers arriving this afternoon, so we'll see if that makes a difference.

Before fooling with the rockers my engine would crank over and idle at 900 RPM. Now it's cranking over and idling around 1,100 RPM.
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1986 Volkswagen Vanagon Westfalia "Von Westy"
Honda K24A converversion-Road Testing Phase
3-Speed Automatic

Von Westy YouTube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbhyZYxJEQrUuLnMbLleeIA

[Wildthings]

[jberger]

[Silverghost500]

I performed another adjustment and it still doesn't sound right to me. It's idling steady at 950 range, which is where it was before I started this project. The exhaust header has a crack at a flange, and that doesn't help trying to diagnose by sound.

Here's a video of it after a test run. To me it sounds like there's still too much noise, even with the aluminum valve covers.

https://youtu.be/yJYFUXdoLHw
_________________
1986 Volkswagen Vanagon Westfalia "Von Westy"
Honda K24A converversion-Road Testing Phase
3-Speed Automatic

Von Westy YouTube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbhyZYxJEQrUuLnMbLleeIA

[DanHoug]

a leaking exhaust can make strange, almost metallic sounds and it will definitely mess up your O2 sensor>ECU mixture control. that said, it does sound too metallic but not really like a tappet clearance clack. photos would be helpful at this point.

if you had clearance issues with the steel covers, i'd guess there's LESS room with the aluminum ones, but that's just a guess.

i spent hours and hours on the bench getting my high ratio rockers to line up properly but i used shims everywhere. I know Mansi's kit is 'plug and play' with the springs on the rocker shaft but i would still go thru basic rocker setup geometry checking. lot's of online info on what to look for.
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-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.

'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd

Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com

[Silverghost500]

Yeah, that exhaust manifold is toast. No sense trying to get it welded. Looks like a replacement is in my credit card's future.

When the engine cooled off I did another valve adjustment. Found some of the rockers still had some slop to them. Now the engine runs smoother. Here's a video after the valve adjustment and after the 2nd test drive:

https://youtu.be/Xvrp2GH2u8g

I can tell a difference in the drivability improvement. It's especially noticeable past 50mph. Where I felt like I had the gas pedal floored just to do 65 on this test route I was able to go over 70 mph and felt like I had more to give in the gas pedal.
_________________
1986 Volkswagen Vanagon Westfalia "Von Westy"
Honda K24A converversion-Road Testing Phase
3-Speed Automatic

Von Westy YouTube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbhyZYxJEQrUuLnMbLleeIA

[Silverghost500]

The clearance issues I had with the OEM valve covers was inside the cover and the valve train. The inside of the new aluminum covers are a lot more open on the valve train side, so no clearance issues there. The aluminum covers sit taller than the OEM stamped steel, and have a squared off shoulder rather than the rounded off edges.
_________________
1986 Volkswagen Vanagon Westfalia "Von Westy"
Honda K24A converversion-Road Testing Phase
3-Speed Automatic

Von Westy YouTube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbhyZYxJEQrUuLnMbLleeIA