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Rome Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2004 Posts: 9653 Location: Pearl River, NY
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:46 am Post subject: Re: 1966 Ocressa Beetle |
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The inner manifold bolt is buried by the fan shroud. |
Have you tried taking a 1/4" drive swivel socket and several extensions, reach down with your hand/arm from the FRONT of the fan shroud (between front face of shroud and the firewall) to get the socket onto that front manifold-to-head nut? Chances are the nut will be the same wrench size as the one you see here; my guess is 13 mm.
If the nut is so large that one of its sides or corners is too close to the manifold throat so that you cannot fit your socket onto the nut, try a crowfoot attachment. If you're lucky, after breaking the nut loose, the threads on the head stud and the nut will allow you to turn the nut with 2 fingers to fully remove it. Then remove the rear nut at the manifold base flange, and lift the entire carb + manifold unit out together.
Oh wait- now I understand- the OKRASA manifold has a 3-nut attachment flange to the head, and you are talking about the center attachment nut which does appear to be fully hidden/covered by the cylinder head tin... Sorry, I have no experience with OKRASA manifolds.
Can you remove the carburetor so that you can view directly downwards along the manifold runners to try to see if the cylinder tin does have a cutout on your engine, for that center attachment nut? Maybe remove the front and rear attachment nuts on the manifold to see if the manifold can be "rocked", indicating that the 3rd center nut might not have been utilized? Unlikely, but given that hidden/covered nut; a possibility. |
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Erik G Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2002 Posts: 13281 Location: Tejas!
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:51 am Post subject: Re: 1966 Ocressa Beetle |
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that car is so wild
I think I would take the decklid off and slide the fan shroud off first to get to the intakes |
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Bulli Klinik Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2005 Posts: 2079 Location: Bulli Klinik, Colorado Springs
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:32 am Post subject: Re: 1966 Ocressa Beetle |
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Rome, I’ve tried taking the outer two nuts off thinking that they may have omitted the inner nuts. No such luck...Good thing because that would have likely been one hell of a vacuum leak! The outer bolts of the shroud were missing. It was held down by just the alternator strap. The shroud isn’t clearanced for the manifolds and is completely covering it.
Eric, I was initially thinking the same about taking off the lid, but I still don’t think it would give me enough clearance vertically. The motor has t-stat flaps but no t-stat, so it needs to come up at least a couple of inches to get a tool in there.
I think pulling the motor from the bell housing, tipping it back, dropping it a few inches and raising the shroud should give me the room I need. The carbs are going to be removed, first. _________________ I've never met a Bus I didn't like.
Mike K
Bulli Klinik
Colorado Springs |
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Bulli Klinik Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2005 Posts: 2079 Location: Bulli Klinik, Colorado Springs
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:43 am Post subject: Re: 1966 Ocressa Beetle |
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I’ve been saving these grills for years. I bumped some dents out the headlight rings and polished them up. Ive got some used, Euro lenses to run.
_________________ I've never met a Bus I didn't like.
Mike K
Bulli Klinik
Colorado Springs |
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obieoberstar Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2002 Posts: 1127 Location: Tucson
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56samba Samba Member
Joined: June 25, 2015 Posts: 262 Location: Germany
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:45 am Post subject: Re: 1966 Ocressa Beetle |
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Bulli Klinik wrote: |
I can tell that this is going to be a challenge. The inner manifold bolt is buried by the fan shroud. They must have installed the manifolds prior to the fan shroud as there is zero access. Were Okrasa tins modified for access to these bolts? Mines going to be when it’s rebuilt.
Between the crazy oil lines and overabundance of electrical wizardry, this isn’t going to be a straightforward operation. I dug in and started removing some of the ancillary equipment. Check out this wonky oiling system:
This doesn’t look home made. The oiling system looks like a production piece, to me anyhow.
Looks like an Autostick pump. There is a sump plate with an oil pickup. There looks to be a return through a hollow bolt at the back of the fuel pump. Also a return where the right side boss would be for an engine support bar. Interesting stuff. I haven’t quite wrapped my head around it yet... This think also has hard lines and woven lines to the front cooler, much like a 356 Carrera.
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Glad to see an update on this cool beetle.
As for the oil cooling spiral, this setup looks pretty much like the one that I pulled from a 1965 Okrasa engine and was available from Oettinger. Nice detail and it definitely cools your oil well. |
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TomSimon Samba Member
Joined: January 13, 2004 Posts: 751
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:24 am Post subject: Re: 1966 Ocressa Beetle |
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The guy who built this car was definitely your 'thinker/tinkerer' type of guy. From everything you've shown, not some 'hack', but a guy who really thought things through, and put his weekends into modifying this car. It figures, amateur radio guys tend to be both smart and cleaver DIYers.
The spiral deal is classic Okrasa oil cooler as 56samba said. Same with the shroud mounted oil filter, a 'part time' filter used on Porsche 356's, a kit for vw's was sold by Fram and EMPI back in the day. Nice stuff back then, until 'full flow' oil filters came into vogue.
The rest of the oil system is interesting and homebrewed. Normally I'd scoff at mounting the oil cooler below the front bumper, because of the pressure drop you get by running oil out of the pump, through 20 feet of hose, and then back to the engine. But not our man... he had a better plan. A well though out and executed plan, at that.
The oil pump looks to be an oem vw autostick pump, which is really a 2-stage oil pump. Think of it as 2 oil pumps running on a common shaft. vw used these 2 stage pump in autostick cars, the first stage pumped motor oil per the usual vw arrangement. The isolated and separate 2nd stage provided oil pressure to the autostick transaxle, pumping transmission fluid.
One common oil system mod used by dirt track and road racers back in the day, was to use an autostick pump (plentiful back then) as a cheap 2-stage pump for their dry sump oiling system conversion. Add an oil tank, re-plumb the system, and you had a poor-man's dry sump system with off the shelf parts.
From the pictures you've shared, I'll go out on a limb and say the builder used the first stage as a normal vw wet sump oil system. The 2nd stage however, which at the moment appears to be plumbed with in a loop for now (the greasy loop of hose seen under the sump) that he'd later re-routed during hot weather. He'd remove the loop, reconnect some lines to draw oil from that tube (brazed into the sump plate), pump oil 10ft into the bumper mounted cooler, 10 more feet of line returning into the sump somewhere, as a 'stand alone' oil cooling circuit that doesn't care about pressure drop. Pretty ingenious if you ask me. _________________ 2-time NASA Pro Racing Champion, Bonneville 130 Club and 150 Club Memeber, BRS Pro Gas racer |
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Bulli Klinik Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2005 Posts: 2079 Location: Bulli Klinik, Colorado Springs
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:53 pm Post subject: Re: 1966 Ocressa Beetle |
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Thanks! It must have been for the secondary generator/alternator that was installed. _________________ I've never met a Bus I didn't like.
Mike K
Bulli Klinik
Colorado Springs |
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Bulli Klinik Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2005 Posts: 2079 Location: Bulli Klinik, Colorado Springs
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:57 pm Post subject: Re: 1966 Ocressa Beetle |
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56samba wrote: |
Glad to see an update on this cool beetle.
As for the oil cooling spiral, this setup looks pretty much like the one that I pulled from a 1965 Okrasa engine and was available from Oettinger. Nice detail and it definitely cools your oil well. |
Thanks for the confirmation. Interesting way of doing things back then. I know a long time Porsche shop owner who had a 912 powered split window Bus with a giant copper coil under the floor. He swore by it never overheating. _________________ I've never met a Bus I didn't like.
Mike K
Bulli Klinik
Colorado Springs |
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Bulli Klinik Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2005 Posts: 2079 Location: Bulli Klinik, Colorado Springs
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:00 pm Post subject: Re: 1966 Ocressa Beetle |
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TomSimon wrote: |
The guy who built this car was definitely your 'thinker/tinkerer' type of guy. From everything you've shown, not some 'hack', but a guy who really thought things through, and put his weekends into modifying this car. It figures, amateur radio guys tend to be both smart and cleaver DIYers.
The spiral deal is classic Okrasa oil cooler as 56samba said. Same with the shroud mounted oil filter, a 'part time' filter used on Porsche 356's, a kit for vw's was sold by Fram and EMPI back in the day. Nice stuff back then, until 'full flow' oil filters came into vogue.
The rest of the oil system is interesting and homebrewed. Normally I'd scoff at mounting the oil cooler below the front bumper, because of the pressure drop you get by running oil out of the pump, through 20 feet of hose, and then back to the engine. But not our man... he had a better plan. A well though out and executed plan, at that.
The oil pump looks to be an oem vw autostick pump, which is really a 2-stage oil pump. Think of it as 2 oil pumps running on a common shaft. vw used these 2 stage pump in autostick cars, the first stage pumped motor oil per the usual vw arrangement. The isolated and separate 2nd stage provided oil pressure to the autostick transaxle, pumping transmission fluid.
One common oil system mod used by dirt track and road racers back in the day, was to use an autostick pump (plentiful back then) as a cheap 2-stage pump for their dry sump oiling system conversion. Add an oil tank, re-plumb the system, and you had a poor-man's dry sump system with off the shelf parts.
From the pictures you've shared, I'll go out on a limb and say the builder used the first stage as a normal vw wet sump oil system. The 2nd stage however, which at the moment appears to be plumbed with in a loop for now (the greasy loop of hose seen under the sump) that he'd later re-routed during hot weather. He'd remove the loop, reconnect some lines to draw oil from that tube (brazed into the sump plate), pump oil 10ft into the bumper mounted cooler, 10 more feet of line returning into the sump somewhere, as a 'stand alone' oil cooling circuit that doesn't care about pressure drop. Pretty ingenious if you ask me. |
Interesting thoughts! The car really seems like he put in plenty of thought and refinements through the years. I want to keep the functional additions and get rid of some of the less functional add ons. He clearly loved the car. _________________ I've never met a Bus I didn't like.
Mike K
Bulli Klinik
Colorado Springs |
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Bulli Klinik Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2005 Posts: 2079 Location: Bulli Klinik, Colorado Springs
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:03 pm Post subject: Re: 1966 Ocressa Beetle |
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The plan worked! Dropped it down, tipped it back and I managed to slip off the shroud. I had to remove the cylinder red tin as well to get the manifolds off.
This thing was buried! Zero access.
Here’s the goods:
_________________ I've never met a Bus I didn't like.
Mike K
Bulli Klinik
Colorado Springs |
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Bulli Klinik Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2005 Posts: 2079 Location: Bulli Klinik, Colorado Springs
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:06 pm Post subject: Re: 1966 Ocressa Beetle |
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The Eagle has landed.
He REALLY wanted that extra generator to fit. All I could think when I saw this smashed tin was broken fins on the heads.
Luckily the damage isn’t beyond repair.
_________________ I've never met a Bus I didn't like.
Mike K
Bulli Klinik
Colorado Springs |
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Bulli Klinik Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2005 Posts: 2079 Location: Bulli Klinik, Colorado Springs
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:09 pm Post subject: Re: 1966 Ocressa Beetle |
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Lightened and balanced flywheel.
F&S 200mm Bus clutch. Looks balanced and like new.
I don’t plan on cracking this motor open until a fresh motor is installed and off the stand. It won’t be quite as interesting as this one, it it’s more important to me to get this thing back on the road. _________________ I've never met a Bus I didn't like.
Mike K
Bulli Klinik
Colorado Springs |
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56samba Samba Member
Joined: June 25, 2015 Posts: 262 Location: Germany
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:23 am Post subject: Re: 1966 Ocressa Beetle |
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Congrats on managing to get the engine out!
I didn't expect to see Okrasa heads but that sure is a nice surprise. From my remembrance the genuine Oettinger manifolds for Zenith 32 carbs looked different but who knows which iteration was photographed on the pic that I'm still trying to dig out for you.
Can' wait to see the goodies inside the engine! |
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TomSimon Samba Member
Joined: January 13, 2004 Posts: 751
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:29 pm Post subject: Re: 1966 Ocressa Beetle |
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The deeper you dig the more interesting it becomes: I've only seen one set of "40hp Okrasa" heads, at a swapmeet at Baylands in Fremont, CA (that track closed in '86 or so, that's how long ago it was. LOL)
You really have a time capsule there, if you had a 1300 beetle, and a few bucks to put into the car, upgrading to dual port Okrasa heads and dual carburetors would make perfect sense.
It will be interesting to learn it's bore and stroke; F case 1300cc engines were 77mm bore x 69mm stroke, were the earlier 40horse engines only had a 64mm stroke. I'm not when 'big bore 40hp" 83mm bore pistons and cylinders came on the market, but they were a popular low cost upgrade, that gave a noticeable power increase to a stock 40 horse.
You'll have to let us know what you find! _________________ 2-time NASA Pro Racing Champion, Bonneville 130 Club and 150 Club Memeber, BRS Pro Gas racer
Last edited by TomSimon on Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Erik G Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2002 Posts: 13281 Location: Tejas!
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Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:39 am Post subject: Re: 1966 Ocressa Beetle |
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ditto what was said above - thread gets better each post |
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Lind Samba Member
Joined: November 06, 2000 Posts: 9915 Location: idaho
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Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:06 am Post subject: Re: 1966 Ocressa Beetle |
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That is such an incredible beetle. It is one of the top beetles ever in my opinion.
I still kick myself for not buying that car when Rob showed it to me in his backyard around 2004 or so.
Which of the original mods will you be keeping? _________________ .
Wanted:
Idaho VW license plate frames or other dealership items.
VWoA literature and early dealership or distributor literature/pictures/information
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Bulli Klinik Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2005 Posts: 2079 Location: Bulli Klinik, Colorado Springs
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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:44 am Post subject: Re: 1966 Ocressa Beetle |
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Though I am going to change a few things, none of them will be irreversible. I’m changing to wide five disks and BRM’s because the cost of rebuilding the stock brakes would be comparable. I did keep the date matched wheels in case I want to go back to four lug. I think the BRM’s look good and they are period correct for the car.
I’m going to omit some of the items like the remains of the wonky radio setup. The harness is a rats nest. I’m want to pull in a fresh harness and tidy up all the accessory wiring. I have a couple sets of period driving lights which will go back on. Definitely want the horn system to work. Going to get all the accessory knobs tied into their appropriate devices. The idea is to maintain the originality of the car with a sympathetic preservation geared toward the spirit of what the car has been modified for, fast road use. It’s not going to be a Cal Looker. More of a Pikes Peak Hill Climb car of the era.
My original plan when yanking the motor was to blast and paint all the stuff that’s been chromed. I love a nicely detailed VS motor. Now I’m leaning towards leaving it chrome. The original builder though it was cool and I really dig all the progressive refinements he did to the car. I don’t want everything to look too new, I want the whole thing to be cohesive.
Any thoughts? _________________ I've never met a Bus I didn't like.
Mike K
Bulli Klinik
Colorado Springs |
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Lind Samba Member
Joined: November 06, 2000 Posts: 9915 Location: idaho
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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:02 pm Post subject: Re: 1966 Ocressa Beetle |
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Bulli Klinik wrote: |
Though I am going to change a few things, none of them will be irreversible. I’m changing to wide five disks and BRM’s because the cost of rebuilding the stock brakes would be comparable. I did keep the date matched wheels in case I want to go back to four lug. I think the BRM’s look good and they are period correct for the car.
I’m going to omit some of the items like the remains of the wonky radio setup. The harness is a rats nest. I’m want to pull in a fresh harness and tidy up all the accessory wiring. I have a couple sets of period driving lights which will go back on. Definitely want the horn system to work. Going to get all the accessory knobs tied into their appropriate devices. The idea is to maintain the originality of the car with a sympathetic preservation geared toward the spirit of what the car has been modified for, fast road use. It’s not going to be a Cal Looker. More of a Pikes Peak Hill Climb car of the era.
My original plan when yanking the motor was to blast and paint all the stuff that’s been chromed. I love a nicely detailed VS motor. Now I’m leaning towards leaving it chrome. The original builder though it was cool and I really dig all the progressive refinements he did to the car. I don’t want everything to look too new, I want the whole thing to be cohesive.
Any thoughts? |
When I talked to Rob about the car, he mentioned that someone offered him a bunch of money for the engine, but he was unwilling to separate it from the car. I thought that was super cool of him. I understand that it will take a while to rebuild the engine, etc. so it makes sense to put another one in for the meantime. Of course that Okrasa engine has to go back in the car. The fact that the car was tuned by Okrasa makes it a level above those cars which had an Okrasa engine installed by someone else.
The two things that I thought didn't look as cool as they could were the wheels and the gauges. That said, they were super modern for their time, and that was the way they did it. I would recommend keeping the 4-lugs discs. If you can't stand the wheels, go with a vintage wheel that was available in Germany at the time. It is just a quick bolt on to change wheels, but a bit more work to change the entire brake setup. In my opinion, there are more cool looking wheel options in the 4-lug world than in the 5-lug world. I also think that the angular BRMs look like ass on a curvy car. (just my opinion, many disagree)
Are the wheels all the same width? If you go with a stock 4-lug rim like the originals, I would sure stagger the widths, with like a 4" up front and a 5.5" in the back. There are a bunch of widths and offsets for those wheels. This is a performance improvement.
There are plenty of people modifying the hell out of cars these days with vintage speed stuff, myself included, making cars what they never were. This car is the real deal, it IS vintage speed. I would recommend keeping it as close as you can to the way it was when the original owner was cruising it around. That said, things like modern radial tires are an essential upgrade, although for all we know the car originally sat on Michelin Xs.
Whichever way you go, bolt on stuff can easily be bolted off if you change your mind down the road. Things like the paint finish are the most important thing to preserve because that is only original once, and you can restore a lot of fun out of a car. Doing a sympathetic preservation is definitely the right way to go on this. You will have fun driving if fast. _________________ .
Wanted:
Idaho VW license plate frames or other dealership items.
VWoA literature and early dealership or distributor literature/pictures/information
. |
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56samba Samba Member
Joined: June 25, 2015 Posts: 262 Location: Germany
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Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:34 am Post subject: Re: 1966 Ocressa Beetle |
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Lind wrote: |
Bulli Klinik wrote: |
Though I am going to change a few things, none of them will be irreversible. I’m changing to wide five disks and BRM’s because the cost of rebuilding the stock brakes would be comparable. I did keep the date matched wheels in case I want to go back to four lug. I think the BRM’s look good and they are period correct for the car.
I’m going to omit some of the items like the remains of the wonky radio setup. The harness is a rats nest. I’m want to pull in a fresh harness and tidy up all the accessory wiring. I have a couple sets of period driving lights which will go back on. Definitely want the horn system to work. Going to get all the accessory knobs tied into their appropriate devices. The idea is to maintain the originality of the car with a sympathetic preservation geared toward the spirit of what the car has been modified for, fast road use. It’s not going to be a Cal Looker. More of a Pikes Peak Hill Climb car of the era.
My original plan when yanking the motor was to blast and paint all the stuff that’s been chromed. I love a nicely detailed VS motor. Now I’m leaning towards leaving it chrome. The original builder though it was cool and I really dig all the progressive refinements he did to the car. I don’t want everything to look too new, I want the whole thing to be cohesive.
Any thoughts? |
When I talked to Rob about the car, he mentioned that someone offered him a bunch of money for the engine, but he was unwilling to separate it from the car. I thought that was super cool of him. I understand that it will take a while to rebuild the engine, etc. so it makes sense to put another one in for the meantime. Of course that Okrasa engine has to go back in the car. The fact that the car was tuned by Okrasa makes it a level above those cars which had an Okrasa engine installed by someone else.
The two things that I thought didn't look as cool as they could were the wheels and the gauges. That said, they were super modern for their time, and that was the way they did it. I would recommend keeping the 4-lugs discs. If you can't stand the wheels, go with a vintage wheel that was available in Germany at the time. It is just a quick bolt on to change wheels, but a bit more work to change the entire brake setup. In my opinion, there are more cool looking wheel options in the 4-lug world than in the 5-lug world. I also think that the angular BRMs look like ass on a curvy car. (just my opinion, many disagree)
Are the wheels all the same width? If you go with a stock 4-lug rim like the originals, I would sure stagger the widths, with like a 4" up front and a 5.5" in the back. There are a bunch of widths and offsets for those wheels. This is a performance improvement.
There are plenty of people modifying the hell out of cars these days with vintage speed stuff, myself included, making cars what they never were. This car is the real deal, it IS vintage speed. I would recommend keeping it as close as you can to the way it was when the original owner was cruising it around. That said, things like modern radial tires are an essential upgrade, although for all we know the car originally sat on Michelin Xs.
Whichever way you go, bolt on stuff can easily be bolted off if you change your mind down the road. Things like the paint finish are the most important thing to preserve because that is only original once, and you can restore a lot of fun out of a car. Doing a sympathetic preservation is definitely the right way to go on this. You will have fun driving if fast. |
Couldn't agree more with Lind.
I'd sure keep the tinware chromed for the baller status plus it adds the ultimate unique character to the engine. Also proofs once again the unbelievable amount of work and money the original owner put into this car. I also have a pair of "late" Okrasa manifolds and they were chromed as well, so maybe that even was available as special order by the Oettinger works.
Speaking about requesting special parts for your Okrasa engine, I just read again about the availabilty of a Zenith 32 NDIX setup from Oettinger. This engine is packed with the best parts, I wouldn't be surprised if you discover domed forged pistons and a full circle roller bearing crank inside the engine. |
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