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Vanapplebomb
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 Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:16 am Post subject: Triggering late Mexican ignition coil with points instead of ECU |
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Has anyone ever rigged up the late ignition coils to be triggered by points instead of the ECU?
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Dale M.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:08 am Post subject: Re: Triggering late Mexican ignition coil with points instead of ECU |
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IF its a "standard" coil with no internal electronics, don't see why it would not work.... Basic ignition coal usually have any where from .4 to 5 ohms primary and 9,000 to 15,000 ohm secondary... If your ECU coil is within these ranges it should work... After all its only a wire wound iron core transformer....
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Last edited by Dale M. on Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:34 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Lingwendil
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| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:15 am Post subject: Re: Triggering late Mexican ignition coil with points instead of ECU |
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You're talking about these, right? the TSZ type coils? Shared by some watercooled VW as well.
I have... long story short, they fire opposite of the points type coils due to the fact that they run a built in ignitor, that is switched by the separate ignition module/amplifier that is in turn run off of the hall effect pickup in the distributor.
It will work if you find a way to invert the signal from your points.
You could also pop the plastic cover off of where the module is connected to the coiljust above the connector in the picture above, and trigger it directly, but you will need something capable of running a low ohm (0.7~1 ohm if I recall) coil.
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dogmeat
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| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:32 am Post subject: Re: Triggering late Mexican ignition coil with points instead of ECU |
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| I'd be careful about doing that. I don't know this one but I know a bit from BMWs. the modern ECUs pulse power to to coil only to the point of initial saturation of the primary or less. the power is only "on" to the coil a few milliseconds, which the ECU varies in accordance with a schedule based on what the computer says. the computer looks at a lot of things... start/run cycle, acceleration/deceleration, temp/pressure, detonation, emissions, etc. and the coil impedance plays a part too, not just the straight resistance. the difference between .5 ohms and 5 ohms is 10x the current so potentially something like 20-25 amps in the coil when the points are closed |
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Lingwendil
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: Triggering late Mexican ignition coil with points instead of ECU |
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| Lingwendil wrote: |
personally I wouldn't run one of these style coils without a coil driver or ignition module of some sort. Maybe off of a Ford TFI module in direct drive, bypassing the internal module? They need some sort of dwell control from my understanding.
They are definitely not appropriate to be driven directly off of points. |
Which is pretty much just like a Hall effect unit with its coil driver module right?
Vanapplebomb.....So...if I am reading the question properly....you want to run a modern coil with a points distributor right?
I see the merit but why stick with points? Just keep the distributor you have...and drop in the Hall module and shutter wheel from an early water cooled distributor . The 70's and 80's rabbits/jettas etc....the distributors were pretty much the same ID and OD dimensions as earlier ACVW aluminum body Bosch distributors.
With a little tinkering ...usually a shim ring for the shaft and a snap ring notch....you can drop in a Hall effect unit from a Rabbit...and just use that module to drive late model coils.
Its a very back burner project for my 412. I am keeping the D-jet distributor to run D-jet...but want to get rid of the Pertronix module to go to Hall effect.
I picked up about 4 brand new in the box.....complete hall effect kits from Rockauto. Made in Italy/Beck Arnley. They are from a 1983 or 85 GTI rabbit.
They will drop into the stock type 3 or 4 distributor with a little massaging.
Just like this kit....pretty much all the parts you need except the module
Ray |
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Vanapplebomb
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| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:39 pm Post subject: Re: Triggering late Mexican ignition coil with points instead of ECU |
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Yes, it is the one pictured. Looks like Beru still makes it. It was used in the 1992-2003 Mexican bugs.
Reason I prefer to stick with points is ease of repair off road. A Hall effect sensor is in the cards as well as they are inexpensive, and easy to swap out with a screw driver in the middle of nowhere.
I believe the late Vanagons used a Hall effect sensor on a standard distributor. I could probably work that in there. I don’t think that the late bug sensors would work with an internal advance mechanism. Wouldn’t mount to the existing advance plate without modification. The late bugs had advance controlled by the ECU.
Ideally I would like to make a more modern setup like this work in a VJU4BR6 distributor… basically an 019 with adjustable vacuum advance. It would be nice to use standard off the shelf stock car parts that are easy to get within one or two days at any auto parts store.
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Lingwendil
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herbie1200
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| Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:32 am Post subject: Re: Triggering late Mexican ignition coil with points instead of ECU |
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Dogmeat is 100% right; modern ECU drive the coil with more complexity than a simple on/off.
This made possible to use Transformers instead of coil (note the different shape) that have different values of inductance and energy transfer.
Some times ECUs, when needed (example: starting) can drive the ignition unit with multiple sparks... I will stay with transformer ignition, it is better from every point of view. |
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Lingwendil
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:21 am Post subject: Re: Triggering late Mexican ignition coil with points instead of ECU |
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| herbie1200 wrote: |
Dogmeat is 100% right; modern ECU drive the coil with more complexity than a simple on/off.
This made possible to use Transformers instead of coil (note the different shape) that have different values of inductance and energy transfer.
Some times ECUs, when needed (example: starting) can drive the ignition unit with multiple sparks... I will stay with transformer ignition, it is better from every point of view. |
Yes! The ignition system in my 2012 Golf (and many others like it across numerous makes) use various sensors as well as the spark plug itself for a sensor. Ion sensing.
Each individual coil puts out a highly variable spark ...customized in some cases with individual cylinder fueling.....to match spark to cylinder conditions millisecond to millisecond.
This is why they run so smooth and economically. And...why they can get so screwed up as well if spark plug grounding....fuel injector condition, compression or temperature is varying on any one cylinder. Ray |
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Vanapplebomb
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| Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:49 am Post subject: Re: Triggering late Mexican ignition coil with points instead of ECU |
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I don’t believe the late model coils are that sophisticated. From what I see, it appears to just be an solid state trigger built into the coil assembly. I believe it takes a 12 volt power source across two terminals, and then a electronic pulse through the 3rd terminal to trigger it to fire.
Does anyone know the voltage of the pulse input signal on them?
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Lingwendil
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| Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:44 am Post subject: Re: Triggering late Mexican ignition coil with points instead of ECU |
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If I'm not mistaken they fire going high with a +5 volt trigger square wave from the ECU. The igniter does not control dwell,it's all handled by the ECU or the hall effect circuitry, I forget which. It took some digging to figure out as there doesn't seem to be many projects which retain this coil when going to non-stock setups.
I'm not sure if you could use a 12 volt trigger signal, but I know it will trigger with lower voltage. Maybe a simple zener diode shunt regulator to protect it from higher voltage would be a good easy solution?
I do remember last I tried it out (five years ago!!!) that simply dropping it in place for a stock coil the timing was waaaaaay off, but I forget by how much off the top of my head. I also forget if I triggered it with points on their own or with a ballast/load resistor to act as a pull-up resistor.
Maybe I should check to see if it will fire off of my Daytona TCS-1. 
There are a Ground, Trigger, and Power terminal in the connector. The ignition driver module itself is attached to the aluminum base of the assembly, and then there are two spade terminals that attach to the coil terminals under a plastic cover.
I've had this thing in my parts pile for five years, might be a good time to clean it up and start messing with it?
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dogmeat
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| Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:08 am Post subject: Re: Triggering late Mexican ignition coil with points instead of ECU |
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you are trying to mix two systems that are not compatible. those low ohm coils are only for a computer controlled ECU system that regulates the "on" time, which is far shorter than a points ignition system
it will work, but only for a while before something overheats |
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Vanapplebomb
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| Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:13 am Post subject: Re: Triggering late Mexican ignition coil with points instead of ECU |
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“On time,” as you say is easily manipulate by the point gap. Also, these are a bit opposite the standard coils in that current does not continually flow through them until the flow is momentarily broken, like with a standard points system. Current is only sent to the coil when the built in module sends the pulse. Current/voltage to the module is easily controlled as well. That to me, isn’t a problem. To me, the question is how much voltage to trigger, pulse duration, etc.
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Lingwendil
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| Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:06 am Post subject: Re: Triggering late Mexican ignition coil with points instead of ECU |
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Honestly in a perfect world you would want to replicate the same sort of trigger signal that the ECU would use, even if it's just "close enough" it should work. You would absolutely want to keep a hand on the dwell ("on time") here to prevent damage to the coil or module. They run hot as fuck in operation and are known to have issues with reliabilty as it is.
Maybe you could experiment with bypassing the module altogether, and setting it to use an external module that is heavily heatsinked to make up for it. Maybe a ford TFI module triggered by points would work- they use a low ohm coil and the dwell is all set by the module. Bit of a frankenstein setup, but so is triggering a coil mated to an ECU controlled, watercooled, fuel injected coil with points 
I know a guy that bypassed the module to run a MSD 6AL box into it, he got a year out of it before he swapped to an MSD brand coil, on his daily driver. That's higher voltage, but very short duration.
You can pop open the cover to bypass the module here-
From here- some ignition testing info on-car-
https://workshop-manuals.com/volkswagen/golf-mk3/p...put_stage/
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Vanapplebomb
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| Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:51 am Post subject: Re: Triggering late Mexican ignition coil with points instead of ECU |
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To me, bypassing the igniter defeats the purpose of running running a coil pack like this.
The late Vanagons had separate units for the trigger a coil. A Hall effect sensor replaced the points, and that triggered a solid state igniter which sent a pulse to the same coil as earlier air cooled VWs had. This set up would basically be the same idea, but instead of a stand alone igniter and coil, they are combined into one unit.
In addition to combining them into one unit, this same coil pack was used on other water cooled VWs not too long ago, so they are plentiful, and available at most auto parts shops same day, or next day delivery if not in stock.
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dunk
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:44 am Post subject: Re: Triggering late Mexican ignition coil with points instead of ECU |
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| Vanapplebomb wrote: |
The late Vanagons had separate units for the trigger a coil. A Hall effect sensor replaced the points, and that triggered a solid state igniter which sent a pulse to the same coil as earlier air cooled VWs had. This set up would basically be the same idea, but instead of a stand alone igniter and coil, they are combined into one unit.
In addition to combining them into one unit, this same coil pack was used on other water cooled VWs not too long ago, so they are plentiful, and available at most auto parts shops same day, or next day delivery if not in stock. |
some info that may help someone?!...
the ford tfi unit looks like a good swap, however.. availabilty in europe?.. not so much..
so the next generation of watercooled ignition, like the vanagon/t25/t3 etc is interesting...
the TSZ type systems with ignition amp, and "relevant" coil, work well imo...
to me, similar in spec in lots of ways to pertronix ignitor 2, but without putting the delicate circuitry inside a hot vibrating spinning thing!
if you look carefully, the ignition amps are being repro'd for small money, also theres a load of NOS ones on ebay and in parts houses still available.. you need to get cross referencing the part no.s!.. they were fitted to vw, audi, porsche, volvo, saab etc.. some of them come with awesome heatsinks on them!
the distributors are also being repro'd.. quality unknown.. expect average?!.. the hall effect units are available as well for reasonable money... o.e. hall effect units are still out there too..
all the plastic connectors and bungs are available as well to make your own factory looking loom too.. again you have to search, but its there.
i have an audi? volvo? cant remember(same part no as waterboxer) ignition amp with a lancia solid state coil on my car.. works fine, pulls hard, runs a slightly larger plug gap too..
also, if you care to try it.. the ignition amps work with pertronix 1 or similar copy type points replacements driving them!  (use a coil similar in spec to the factory hall effect one though!) |
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Paul.H
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:58 am Post subject: Re: Triggering late Mexican ignition coil with points instead of ECU |
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| I use those coils and they are usually run at 3-5 milliseconds dwell controlled by an ECU . Those late Vanagon distributors which are the same as the Mexican beetle have a Hall sensor that can be fed with either 5v or 12v and they have no advance mechanism. These parts are designed to work with an ECU so if you just want to run points or a Petronix just use a regular coil it's a lot easier |
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