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mcmmd Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2004 Posts: 215 Location: Austin, Texas
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Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:52 pm Post subject: Frozen left front wheel on my 1966 Kombi |
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So the driver's side front wheel on my 1966 kombi is totally frozen. Feels like the wheel cylinders are locked up in the deployed position. There is very little movement in the brake pedal, it stops firm after depressing it less than 1 inch. I there is plenty of fairly clear liquid brake fluid in the reservoir. I opened the bleed valve with no pressure on the pedal and nothing came out. When the pedal is depressed with the bleed valve open, it goes to the floor and fluid comes out.
I am guessing the problem is somewhere in my wheel cylinders being frozen somehow. Wondering how I am going to get the drums off. I can't rotate the wheel to loosen the star adjusters.
Suggestions, advice appreciated.
Martin
Austin, TX
34bhp.com
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chrisflstf Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2004 Posts: 3413 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:01 pm Post subject: Re: Frozen left front wheel on my 1966 Kombi |
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If the bus is driveable, try moving it until the adjusters are in position - or make a lever to attach to the drum to rotate it in position |
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Old Paint Samba Member
Joined: May 29, 2010 Posts: 436 Location: Battle Ground, Washington
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Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:13 pm Post subject: Re: Frozen left front wheel on my 1966 Kombi |
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Did you take the soft line off at the cylinder. I once had a brake lock up and the soft line collapsed and acted like a one way valve. It was after the Bus sat for a while. It was while I was on the freeway.
If that does nothing and you cant turn it to loosen stars, you might have to drill out they cylinder from the back. _________________ Greg
1961 Ragtop
1961 Single Cab (Old Paint) |
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BarryL Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2004 Posts: 14218 Location: Casa de Oro, California
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Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:16 pm Post subject: Re: Frozen left front wheel on my 1966 Kombi |
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Old Paint wrote: |
... I once had a brake lock up and the soft line collapsed and acted like a one way valve... |
I thought about that too but he said when he opened the bleeder that he could pump fluid so wouldn't he be able to open the bleeder and relieve that one-way pressure? |
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mcmmd Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2004 Posts: 215 Location: Austin, Texas
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Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:59 pm Post subject: Re: Frozen left front wheel on my 1966 Kombi |
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chrisflstf wrote: |
If the bus is driveable, try moving it until the adjusters are in position - or make a lever to attach to the drum to rotate it in position |
Voila! I was able to move the bus until the adjusters were lined up, backed them off and now it spins! _________________ Martin
Austin, TX |
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ToolBox Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2004 Posts: 3439 Location: Detroit, where they don't jack parts off my ride in the parking lot of the 7-11
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:11 am Post subject: Re: Frozen left front wheel on my 1966 Kombi |
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mcmmd wrote: |
chrisflstf wrote: |
If the bus is driveable, try moving it until the adjusters are in position - or make a lever to attach to the drum to rotate it in position |
Voila! I was able to move the bus until the adjusters were lined up, backed them off and now it spins! |
Now it's time to find out why it was seized up so it will not happen again. |
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mcmmd Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2004 Posts: 215 Location: Austin, Texas
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:05 pm Post subject: Re: Frozen left front wheel on my 1966 Kombi |
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ToolBox wrote: |
mcmmd wrote: |
chrisflstf wrote: |
If the bus is driveable, try moving it until the adjusters are in position - or make a lever to attach to the drum to rotate it in position |
Voila! I was able to move the bus until the adjusters were lined up, backed them off and now it spins! |
Now it's time to find out why it was seized up so it will not happen again. |
That was exactly what I was thinking. I backed the adjuster all the way off but just on the upper adjuster. The wheel still had some resistance but turned much easier. Obviously needs to be adjusted better but need to find the cause.
What should I look for as a cause? Seems like a brake that was wearing out would go the other way and need to be adjusted out. Could the shoes be off track, surely the pads didn't swell up, maybe one of the springs broke and thru everything out of alignment???
We have the VW Harvest this weekend and I think I need to do a full brake job but it can wait until after this weekend. _________________ Martin
Austin, TX |
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Erik G Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2002 Posts: 13247 Location: Tejas!
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:49 pm Post subject: Re: Frozen left front wheel on my 1966 Kombi |
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Brake hoses and the star adjuster not having the hold down. Hoses will have dates on them. They swell from the inside, so they may look ok on the outside _________________ Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
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Clara Samba Member
Joined: June 14, 2003 Posts: 12383
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:17 am Post subject: Re: Frozen left front wheel on my 1966 Kombi |
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mcmmd wrote: |
ToolBox wrote: |
mcmmd wrote: |
chrisflstf wrote: |
If the bus is driveable, try moving it until the adjusters are in position - or make a lever to attach to the drum to rotate it in position |
Voila! I was able to move the bus until the adjusters were lined up, backed them off and now it spins! |
Now it's time to find out why it was seized up so it will not happen again. |
That was exactly what I was thinking. I backed the adjuster all the way off but just on the upper adjuster. The wheel still had some resistance but turned much easier. Obviously needs to be adjusted better but need to find the cause.
What should I look for as a cause? Seems like a brake that was wearing out would go the other way and need to be adjusted out. Could the shoes be off track, surely the pads didn't swell up, maybe one of the springs broke and thru everything out of alignment???
We have the VW Harvest this weekend and I think I need to do a full brake job but it can wait until after this weekend. |
When adjusting brakes, adjust till the wheel doesn't turn, then back off till it spins freely.
How many clicks back is that?
Should be 1-2 if shoes are perfectly arced, (rare) or 3-5 if not.
If more than 5 clicks back, something is funky. Leave at 5-7 clicks back even if slight rubbing.
Adjust BOTH stars.
After adjusting both stars, stomp on brake pedal firmly a few times. This is important.
Adjust again. Is it different?
Is it mucky in the drum? or clean dust? If mucky, your brake cylinders are leaking. The bubbling paint on the backing plate looks like it has been leaking at some point. Though the wheel looks dry.
Any reason not to remove the drum and take a look?
Brake fluid looks dirty and at bottom line.
I'd wipe the inside of the with a clean rag or paper towel when flushing the brakes, when the reservoir is just about empty, if it has that dirty deposit. _________________ The Obsolete Air-Cooled Documentation Project http://oacdp.org/ |
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EverettB Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000 Posts: 69734 Location: Phoenix Metro
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:55 am Post subject: Re: Frozen left front wheel on my 1966 Kombi |
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BarryL wrote: |
Old Paint wrote: |
... I once had a brake lock up and the soft line collapsed and acted like a one way valve... |
I thought about that too but he said when he opened the bleeder that he could pump fluid so wouldn't he be able to open the bleeder and relieve that one-way pressure? |
Yes, if it's pressurized it will spray out and the drum will turn.
I've done that when a hose was collapsed and the brakes/drum got super hot from driving. _________________ How to Post Photos
Everett Barnes - [email protected] | My wanted ads
"Water is the only drink for a wise man" | "Communication prevents complaints"
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EverettB Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000 Posts: 69734 Location: Phoenix Metro
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:57 am Post subject: Re: Frozen left front wheel on my 1966 Kombi |
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Erik G wrote: |
Brake hoses and the star adjuster not having the hold down. |
This is a possibility but I think this is more uncommon than other issues.
My '63 was like that when I got it - one hold down for one adjuster was broken off. Brakes didn't lock up but that side kept going out of adjustment as I drove it and would pull to one side. Replaced the spring and everything has been fine.
Maybe a broken return spring too?
This is probably uncommon too and I believe you would hear noise or rattling from the pieces moving around.
Either way, pop the drum off and take a look at stuff _________________ How to Post Photos
Everett Barnes - [email protected] | My wanted ads
"Water is the only drink for a wise man" | "Communication prevents complaints"
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mcmmd Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2004 Posts: 215 Location: Austin, Texas
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Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:45 pm Post subject: Re: Frozen left front wheel on my 1966 Kombi |
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Thanks for the thorough explanation on adjusting and everything else. There is no obvious evidence of leaks at the wheel cylinders. I bet the hoses are swollen and I know it needs a flush but gonna do everything when I get a master cylinder. They are on back order from Jbugs, at the least the non German options are.
I will run through the full adjustment and see if that gets me thru the weekend.
Clara wrote: |
mcmmd wrote: |
ToolBox wrote: |
mcmmd wrote: |
chrisflstf wrote: |
If the bus is driveable, try moving it until the adjusters are in position - or make a lever to attach to the drum to rotate it in position |
Voila! I was able to move the bus until the adjusters were lined up, backed them off and now it spins! |
Now it's time to find out why it was seized up so it will not happen again. |
That was exactly what I was thinking. I backed the adjuster all the way off but just on the upper adjuster. The wheel still had some resistance but turned much easier. Obviously needs to be adjusted better but need to find the cause.
What should I look for as a cause? Seems like a brake that was wearing out would go the other way and need to be adjusted out. Could the shoes be off track, surely the pads didn't swell up, maybe one of the springs broke and thru everything out of alignment???
We have the VW Harvest this weekend and I think I need to do a full brake job but it can wait until after this weekend. |
When adjusting brakes, adjust till the wheel doesn't turn, then back off till it spins freely.
How many clicks back is that?
Should be 1-2 if shoes are perfectly arced, (rare) or 3-5 if not.
If more than 5 clicks back, something is funky. Leave at 5-7 clicks back even if slight rubbing.
Adjust BOTH stars.
After adjusting both stars, stomp on brake pedal firmly a few times. This is important.
Adjust again. Is it different?
Is it mucky in the drum? or clean dust? If mucky, your brake cylinders are leaking. The bubbling paint on the backing plate looks like it has been leaking at some point. Though the wheel looks dry.
Any reason not to remove the drum and take a look?
Brake fluid looks dirty and at bottom line.
I'd wipe the inside of the with a clean rag or paper towel when flushing the brakes, when the reservoir is just about empty, if it has that dirty deposit. |
_________________ Martin
Austin, TX |
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mcmmd Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2004 Posts: 215 Location: Austin, Texas
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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:31 am Post subject: Re: Frozen left front wheel on my 1966 Kombi |
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Ok so I know I am going to get called out on this but after closer examination, one of the right front wheel cylinders had leaked at some point. We broke it down, replaced the shoes and both front wheel cylinders on the right front only, emptied the reservoir of dirty fluid, refilled and flushed.
Everything seemed fine. The brakes grabbed well. I took the bus out and drove ~15-20 miles. After a sudden stop (and true brake test) the brakes failed. There was loud clunk and little or no grab on the brake pedal. The brakes shuddered whenever applying the pedal.
At first I though the axle nuts had come loose and the whole drum was coming off! Not the issue. We broke it down on the road, noted one of the shoes was not seated correctly (problem #1). Also seemed like the bearing seated better when we put it back together (?problem #2?) Still not much braking though. So I hobbled home with the e-brake.
I think by doing only one side on the front, I may have blown out the weak links remaining in the rest of the system? Isn't there a rule never to do just one wheel, when replacing the wheel cylinders?
I will update when I get back under the bus and take the front pan and both front wheels off. _________________ Martin
Austin, TX |
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BarryL Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2004 Posts: 14218 Location: Casa de Oro, California
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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:20 pm Post subject: Re: Frozen left front wheel on my 1966 Kombi |
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mcmmd wrote: |
Isn't there a rule never to do just one wheel, when replacing the wheel cylinders? |
I don't think the rule is for slave cylinders. Theoretically they push at the same force. The suggested rule is not to mix brake shoes with different linings on one complete wheel alone. If you have to mix them put 1/2 of the shoes on each side same location.
A general school of thought you might be referring to is that if one side's cylinder(s) are leaking there is a good chance the other side is leaking. |
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mcmmd Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2004 Posts: 215 Location: Austin, Texas
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Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:57 pm Post subject: Re: Frozen left front wheel on my 1966 Kombi |
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So you were right about shoes on only one side!! This is what I found when I took the drum off the opposite wheel, the one we did not replace shoes and cylinders on!!
Explains the shuddering then the complete lack of braking with the pedal!! Thank goodness for the e-brake!
Pretty frigin' rookie mistake!!
I have broken everything down now and I am going to redo the entire system.
_________________ Martin
Austin, TX |
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iamdonquixote Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2003 Posts: 2037 Location: M*ssholia
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Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 1:01 am Post subject: Re: Frozen left front wheel on my 1966 Kombi |
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did you verify if original slave cylinders were operative ? |
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mcmmd Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2004 Posts: 215 Location: Austin, Texas
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Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:07 am Post subject: Re: Frozen left front wheel on my 1966 Kombi |
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Before I did any work on the brakes and after I was able to actually get to the adjusters, I backed them off and the wheels spun freely and all for wheels stopped solidly when applying the brake pedal. I think that confirms that the wheel cylinders were working but not sure? _________________ Martin
Austin, TX |
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