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David Follett
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Joined: May 10, 2010
Posts: 99
Location: Media, PA
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 Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:37 am Post subject: Generator/Regulator Test Help |
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Need someone to do a quick electrical test for me. I put a new style Bosch voltage regulator on my '69 Ghia that has a '73 1600 engine fitted with a generator. With battery connected the generator became warm and I realized the the D+ terminal had the same voltage as the battery.
I have performed a few generator tests with the generator not connected to any thing and all seems good. Regulator is connected as per electrical schematic.
DF & D+ to corresponding terminals on generator. 61 to dash light and B+ to battery via starter and a battery shut of switch.
Cannot find any information if there should be battery voltage at D+ which seems to be the cause of generator getting warm.
Battery is now discharged and has to be replaced so I cannot get engine started to test voltage at generator. Should there be voltage at D+ with out engine running and is the regulator bad?
_________________
Present VW-'69 Ghia Coupe
Former VW's & a few others:
Type 1-'69 Type 1 Rat Rod, '69, '63, '60, '62, '55?? split window in Germany, US Army 1964-66, '64 Baja Bug w/1500S Type 3 engine. Ghia '62, '66.
Type 2- '67 Dual Cab
'?? Vanagon
412 wagen
Dasher wagen
Jetta-GLI, VR6, Golf
TR2,TR3, Austin Healy 3000, MGTD, Porsche Speedster & 3 Model A Fords. Almost forgot-Corvair & Nash Mertopolitan |
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Starbucket
Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2007
Posts: 4025
Location: WA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:17 pm Post subject: Re: Generator/Regulator Test Help |
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| Did you polarize the regulator to the generator first? Whenever I work on generators/regulators, I remove the belt so if something is wrong the generator will run like a motor, that's why it got hot, the belt kept it from turning. Generator may be toast, look in by the brushes for solder and smell the wiring inside. |
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David Follett
Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2010
Posts: 99
Location: Media, PA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:54 am Post subject: Re: Generator/Regulator Test Help |
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I did polarize the generator. Removed the belt as I did before, applied voltage and it still spins so no damage seems to have been done.
I still need an answer if there should be voltage at the regulator D+ terminal which is connected to the battery. It does make sense to me that there should be voltage to the generator and seems to be heating the generator. I would think the regulator is bad.
_________________
Present VW-'69 Ghia Coupe
Former VW's & a few others:
Type 1-'69 Type 1 Rat Rod, '69, '63, '60, '62, '55?? split window in Germany, US Army 1964-66, '64 Baja Bug w/1500S Type 3 engine. Ghia '62, '66.
Type 2- '67 Dual Cab
'?? Vanagon
412 wagen
Dasher wagen
Jetta-GLI, VR6, Golf
TR2,TR3, Austin Healy 3000, MGTD, Porsche Speedster & 3 Model A Fords. Almost forgot-Corvair & Nash Mertopolitan |
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Starbucket
Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2007
Posts: 4025
Location: WA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:48 am Post subject: Re: Generator/Regulator Test Help |
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Battery + to Reg. B+
61 Blue to Speedo Gen light
D+ to Gen D+
Df to Gen Df
D+ should see voltage only while generating.
So your reg. is connected wrong. |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15982
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:20 pm Post subject: Re: Generator/Regulator Test Help |
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| David Follett wrote: |
| I realized the the D+ terminal had the same voltage as the battery. |
Just to be clear, this is with the thick red D+ wire from the VR connected to the D+ terminal when you took the reading, right?
Disconnect the D+ wire at the generator end and measure the voltage at the end of the red wire and the voltage at the D+ stud on the generator with no wires connected. I'm guessing you will find the 12v is coming from the D+ wire and not the generator stud, but always good to confirm.
No, the VR should not be outputing 12v+ to the D+ on the generator. Also disconnect the other wires at the generator and test the loose wire ends for voltage.
There are three thick red wires at the VR. Two are connected to the B+ terminal one is connected to D+. If you accidentally swap one of B+ wires with the D+ you might get your described condition.
| David Follett wrote: |
| I have performed a few generator tests with the generator not connected to any thing and all seems good. |
What generator test have you performed? Detail the test and the results.
| David Follett wrote: |
| Regulator is connected as per electrical schematic. DF & D+ to corresponding terminals on generator. 61 to dash light and B+ to battery via starter and a battery shut of switch. |
What about the D- ground wire running between the VR base and the D- screw on the body of the generator close to the fan end. The only time you don't need this is when the VR is mounted to the generator body (early 6v config).
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road  }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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David Follett
Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2010
Posts: 99
Location: Media, PA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 5:34 am Post subject: Re: Generator/Regulator Test Help |
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Thanks for the reply.
Starbucket - Now I know there should not be voltage at the VR D+ terminal. Guess my VR is bad. You said I'm not connected correctly but I am as you and the wiring diagram indicate the connections.
Ashman - I tested for voltage at VR & generator terminals. Voltage at both with wire connected. No voltage at generator with wire disconnected and voltage still at the VR.
Generator tested as follows: wires & belt off the gen. Applied voltage to gen D+ and armature tried to turn but my battery charge was low. With voltage still applied to D+ I grounded DF and gen spun fast. Did not test for voltage at gen D+ with belt on and engine running since I now need a new battery but will do but I'm concerned to do that now since there should not be voltage there with engine not running. I think another test is to test voltage at D+ with wire disconnected and possibly also DF.
The Bosch VR is on firewall. Not sure if it is grounded or has to be but I will do that.
Sorry for the long reply. You both have been very helpful. Just a short unrelated note - I purchased the VR from BugEyed VW Parts in GA last November and did not get the engine back in and VR installed until a few weeks ago. They have relocated their inventory to another vendor in IN. I called them and they will replace the VR. Great customer service.
_________________
Present VW-'69 Ghia Coupe
Former VW's & a few others:
Type 1-'69 Type 1 Rat Rod, '69, '63, '60, '62, '55?? split window in Germany, US Army 1964-66, '64 Baja Bug w/1500S Type 3 engine. Ghia '62, '66.
Type 2- '67 Dual Cab
'?? Vanagon
412 wagen
Dasher wagen
Jetta-GLI, VR6, Golf
TR2,TR3, Austin Healy 3000, MGTD, Porsche Speedster & 3 Model A Fords. Almost forgot-Corvair & Nash Mertopolitan |
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Starbucket
Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2007
Posts: 4025
Location: WA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 6:41 am Post subject: Re: Generator/Regulator Test Help |
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| Look at Technical (top of page) clk./wiring, clk./Ghia, Find your year in USA, then clk. on diagram by the generator and the wiring is simple to see when it's magnified. |
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Starbucket
Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2007
Posts: 4025
Location: WA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 7:39 am Post subject: Re: Generator/Regulator Test Help |
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| David Follett wrote: |
I did polarize the generator. Removed the belt as I did before, applied voltage and it still spins so no damage seems to have been done.
I still need an answer if there should be voltage at the regulator D+ terminal which is connected to the battery. It does make sense to me that there should be voltage to the generator and seems to be heating the generator. I would think the regulator is bad.
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the regulator D+ terminal which is connected to the battery.
This statement you made is why I said it's wired wrong. |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15982
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 10:26 am Post subject: Re: Generator/Regulator Test Help |
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| David Follett wrote: |
| I tested for voltage at VR & generator terminals. Voltage at both with wire connected. No voltage at generator with wire disconnected and voltage still at the VR. |
Ok, so the voltage is coming from the VR. If your VR is wired according to wiring diagram it likely means you have a bad VR.
| David Follett wrote: |
| Generator tested as follows: wires & belt off the gen. Applied voltage to gen D+ and armature tried to turn but my battery charge was low. With voltage still applied to D+ I grounded DF and gen spun fast. |
This indicates the generator is polarized and will likely generate current when spun by the engine. Did it spin CW or CCW? It is possible to polarize a generator backwards/reverse. IIRC it should spin CW when D+ is powered from the battery.
This is also why voltage incorrectly supplied by the VR over the D+ wire will quickly drain the battery. The generator is trying to rotate the engine via the fan belt. It can't but it continues to try until the battery is dead.
| David Follett wrote: |
| I think another test is to test voltage at D+ with wire disconnected and possibly also DF. |
Now you are just making up tests. 
As far as I am aware, there is no spec for the voltage on the D+ while the engine is running and everything hooked up normally. The objective of the charging system is to produce sufficient current to recharge the battery (which was drained by the starter) and to power all electrical devices on the car. This is measured at the battery terminals. When charging, you want to see 13.8v+ at the battery. This is enough voltage to recharge the battery as you drive. It doesn't matter that the generator D+ is outputting 14.0v if the reading at the battery is only 12.5v.
The one test that looks at the D+ output is the max output test which momentarily placed the generator into max output. This is when you ground the DF terminal with the engine running. A good working generator should output more than 35.0v indicating it has more than enough capacity to supply the charging system.
Give Speedy Jim's page on troubleshooting a generator a read:
http://www.speedyjim.net/htm/gen.htm
You disconnect the VR to generator wires during the test so the car is running off just the battery. You only need to get the engine running. Jump start or bump start the car or put a temp battery in just to get it running. If the generator can output 35.0v+ at max output you know the generator is likely good and you can confidently focus on the VR as your problem.
| David Follett wrote: |
| The Bosch VR is on firewall. Not sure if it is grounded or has to be but I will do that. |
The D- ground wire between the VR and the generator case ensures both have a common ground potential to measure voltage against. With a sensitive enough digital VM, place one probe on the firewall and one probe on the generator case. I'm pretty sure you will get a very small voltage reading. This is a measure of the difference in ground potential between the two points. Sometimes you can get as much as +/-1.0v difference. Add a jumper wire between the two probes and do the same test and you should see zero voltage. This shows that the jumper wire ensures the ground potential between the two points is the same.
| David Follett wrote: |
| I purchased the VR from BugEyed VW Parts in GA last November and did not get the engine back in and VR installed until a few weeks ago. They have relocated their inventory to another vendor in IN. I called them and they will replace the VR. Great customer service. |
Did you get the original style mechanical/analog VR or the newer solid state VR like this one? The solid state one is more reliable.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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David Follett
Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2010
Posts: 99
Location: Media, PA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:08 am Post subject: Re: Generator/Regulator Test Help |
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You have all been very helpful but I still have a problem. I hate to open this post again but am totally frustrated. Never had an unsolved problem during my time with air cooled VW's since 1966 except my attempt to put a T4 engine in the Ghia.
The battery is new. I installed another VR. It is a Bosch unit exactly like your photo. Only difference is the small number below the HECHO EN MEXICO printing. Mine is 191 and the VR I took out is 039. May be a production date. I still have voltage at the VR D+ terminal. Just realized the warning light does not go on. I removed the wire at terminal 61, grounded it and the light is on with ignition on. Tested the VR 61 and there is no ground. The VW mounting bracket at the fire wall has ground. The VR case with all the printing does not. The two small bolts that seem to hold the outer case on have ground and seem to have an insulating washer under them to insulate the outer case from the mounting bracket.
I did read somewhere that some of the Bosch VR's were bad and it looks like I got another one or I'm just confused.
_________________
Present VW-'69 Ghia Coupe
Former VW's & a few others:
Type 1-'69 Type 1 Rat Rod, '69, '63, '60, '62, '55?? split window in Germany, US Army 1964-66, '64 Baja Bug w/1500S Type 3 engine. Ghia '62, '66.
Type 2- '67 Dual Cab
'?? Vanagon
412 wagen
Dasher wagen
Jetta-GLI, VR6, Golf
TR2,TR3, Austin Healy 3000, MGTD, Porsche Speedster & 3 Model A Fords. Almost forgot-Corvair & Nash Mertopolitan |
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Starbucket
Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2007
Posts: 4025
Location: WA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:12 am Post subject: Re: Generator/Regulator Test Help |
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| Post a picture of your gen./vr wiring. |
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David Follett
Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2010
Posts: 99
Location: Media, PA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:58 am Post subject: Re: Generator/Regulator Test Help |
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My '69 Ghia VR/Regulator wiring Diagram
_________________
Present VW-'69 Ghia Coupe
Former VW's & a few others:
Type 1-'69 Type 1 Rat Rod, '69, '63, '60, '62, '55?? split window in Germany, US Army 1964-66, '64 Baja Bug w/1500S Type 3 engine. Ghia '62, '66.
Type 2- '67 Dual Cab
'?? Vanagon
412 wagen
Dasher wagen
Jetta-GLI, VR6, Golf
TR2,TR3, Austin Healy 3000, MGTD, Porsche Speedster & 3 Model A Fords. Almost forgot-Corvair & Nash Mertopolitan |
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| Back to top |
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David Follett
Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2010
Posts: 99
Location: Media, PA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:01 am Post subject: Re: Generator/Regulator Test Help |
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_________________
Present VW-'69 Ghia Coupe
Former VW's & a few others:
Type 1-'69 Type 1 Rat Rod, '69, '63, '60, '62, '55?? split window in Germany, US Army 1964-66, '64 Baja Bug w/1500S Type 3 engine. Ghia '62, '66.
Type 2- '67 Dual Cab
'?? Vanagon
412 wagen
Dasher wagen
Jetta-GLI, VR6, Golf
TR2,TR3, Austin Healy 3000, MGTD, Porsche Speedster & 3 Model A Fords. Almost forgot-Corvair & Nash Mertopolitan |
|
| Back to top |
|
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Starbucket
Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2007
Posts: 4025
Location: WA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:23 am Post subject: Re: Generator/Regulator Test Help |
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| Have you checked/cleaned the ground strap from the tran.s to body (front of tran.s)? That is the path to the battery ground from engine/trans. assy. |
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David Follett
Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2010
Posts: 99
Location: Media, PA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: Generator/Regulator Test Help |
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PROBLEM SOLVED!!
An instruction sheet that came with the VR had the wiring diagram and also a diagram of a jumper wire between B+ & D+ with a kind of spark at each end. The instructions were in Spanish but I assumed it was instructing to do that to possibly polarize the VR. Well I briefly did that and now the warning light came on and there was no longer voltage at VR terminal D+. The generator puts out about 14.8 - 15.1 volts at about 2000 RPM's so I believe all is now well. I just have to wire up a Rabbit fuel cut off relay between the distributor and the electric fuel pump and I'm on the road again. Gonna cheat on this and use one of the tail lamp wires to do this instead of a new wire between the two.
Nowhere in my research did I see that the VR should be polarized.
Thank you again all for your help and advice.
_________________
Present VW-'69 Ghia Coupe
Former VW's & a few others:
Type 1-'69 Type 1 Rat Rod, '69, '63, '60, '62, '55?? split window in Germany, US Army 1964-66, '64 Baja Bug w/1500S Type 3 engine. Ghia '62, '66.
Type 2- '67 Dual Cab
'?? Vanagon
412 wagen
Dasher wagen
Jetta-GLI, VR6, Golf
TR2,TR3, Austin Healy 3000, MGTD, Porsche Speedster & 3 Model A Fords. Almost forgot-Corvair & Nash Mertopolitan |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15982
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:07 pm Post subject: Re: Generator/Regulator Test Help |
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| David Follett wrote: |
An instruction sheet that came with the VR had the wiring diagram and also a diagram of a jumper wire between B+ & D+ with a kind of spark at each end. The instructions were in Spanish but I assumed it was instructing to do that to possibly polarize the VR. Well I briefly did that and now the warning light came on and there was no longer voltage at VR terminal D+. The generator puts out about 14.8 - 15.1 volts at about 2000 RPM's so I believe all is now well...
Nowhere in my research did I see that the VR should be polarized. |
You are correct in your thoughts... you do not need to polarize the VR.
What you described above (running a jumper wire between B+ and D+) results in polarizing the generator. B+ (which is connected to the battery positive terminal) connected to D+ on the generator... is the same step used to polarize the generator (connect a 12v+ from the battery to D+).
The VR is not polarized.
Generators can become depolarized over a long period of non-use of by simply shocking them with a hammer or dropping them from a relatively small height. This is why it never hurts to polarize your generator when it no longer seems to charge properly.
One additional note... the base of the VR should be connected to the generator using a brown D- wire. The generator should have a screw near the fan end of the generator housing with a D- marking. Running a wire between the based screw of the VR and this screw in the body of the generator ensure the two share a common ground. The firewall and the generator stand are actually very far apart when it comes to being electrically connected. This difference could result in a much different voltage reading between the two.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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David Follett
Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2010
Posts: 99
Location: Media, PA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:47 am Post subject: Re: Generator/Regulator Test Help |
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Thank you ashman.
I previously polarized the generator. There was battery at the VR D+ terminal with it not connected to the generator. After I briefly touched VR terminals together with a jumper wire as noted in Spanish with the new VR there was no voltage there. It was not connected to the generator so that did not affect that. I know the VR should be on generator but the new solid state ones seem to be designed for other locations. There is no voltage, ground or ohm resistance difference between my fire wall mount and the generator.
_________________
Present VW-'69 Ghia Coupe
Former VW's & a few others:
Type 1-'69 Type 1 Rat Rod, '69, '63, '60, '62, '55?? split window in Germany, US Army 1964-66, '64 Baja Bug w/1500S Type 3 engine. Ghia '62, '66.
Type 2- '67 Dual Cab
'?? Vanagon
412 wagen
Dasher wagen
Jetta-GLI, VR6, Golf
TR2,TR3, Austin Healy 3000, MGTD, Porsche Speedster & 3 Model A Fords. Almost forgot-Corvair & Nash Mertopolitan |
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