propane ?

[BFB]

anyone convert their vw to run on propane?

[slalombuggy]

Zambonis used propane powered VW engines. It was kind of a challenge to get enough heat into the intake evaporator to convert the liquid to gas.

[oprn]

I converted my Rabbit to propane years ago mainly to get the higher octane rating for running higher boost pressures. Worked out really well! I loved it!

I have thought about using propane on an air cooled VW but I have not done the research on evaporators for that application yet. It would need to use exhaust gases to heat the evaporator I suspect.

Keep the comments coming those of you with propane experiance, I'm interested!

[busdaddy]

Plenty of LP conversions in the UK from what I've seen, whole kits are available for the DIY crowd.
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[vandenabeele andries]

LOL ask any Dutch VW fan. They love converting to LPG.
I remember a guy in my town driving one. It had a stift in the exhaust to make the liquid a gas. Then a regulator and a stove kinda dispurser under the carb. Ran good although he had to run rich so he wouldnt cook his valves. His tank was an oldschool ring tank in the front. He had a pipe comming under his front bumper so when he was pumping gas he could see it freeze and know his tank was 80% full.

I know the stift isnt allowed anymore. You now have to install a oil to water conversion to gassify LPG. So no air cooled lover is interested in puttin an exchanger, a pump and a golf reservoir in his engine compartiment.

But if the stift is still allowed. Yeah give it a shot. Its 110 octane .

Best regards

[oprn]

What is a stift? A quick search tells me the word means "donation".

As for burning valves - rich is not good, lean is better with propane. Rich is hot, lean is cooler.

Because there is less carbon propane does yield less power than gasoline. The higher octane rating (slower burn) also contributes to that. About 10% in most cases but - take advantage of that higher octane rating and increase your compression ratio and you will re-gain most of that power loss. 11 or 12/1 is ideal.

I used Impco carburation on my conversion. Very simple and the most common here at the time. I went with the 110 carb (rated at 110 hp) but it was too small and would go rich at 15+ psi boost and detonate. I should have gone with the 120 carb and added an intercooler. I chose instead to just limit the boost below 15 psi.

The biggest problem with propane today in my part of the world is the producers got greedy and jacked the price up to the same as gas and conversions fell out of favor. It's getting very hard to find a filling station now.

I would love to go back to propane, it's such a clean burning fuel. The oil just never gets dark and engines last almost for ever. A good friend of mine got 500K out of a '73 Ford 351. In this modern world of concern over pollution this fuel has been totally overlooked!

[BFB]

any good reads for propane conversion basics? i know next to nothing about it except what ive read about some offroad 4x4 conversions and how it worked good off camber as it would starve or flood like a normal gas carb.

[Vanapplebomb]

Propane Type 4 engine in a buggy. No carbs to flood, and no delicate electronics for FI.


Link

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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021

[Bruce]

[oprn]

[BFB]

today I was scrolling through skeezbay and saw a propane kit for 32/36's, it said it'd make it a dual fuel carb.
I thought that was interesting and made me start thinking about propane again. and also wonder how propane would work with boost, anyone know?
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An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
“ The monkey see monkey do mentality seems to run deep in VW people. "Gene Berg said it was so 30 years ago so thats the way it is" “ - bdkw1

[oprn]

Yes I certainly do. It works very well due to it’s high octane rating. It also does not drop out of suspension in long intake systems like gasoline does. Your oil will stay clean like new for a long long time too.

Forget about converting a gas carb to propane, it will never work. Propane is a gas at atmospheric pressure not a liquid. What they are likely trying to sell you is an additional propane carb to put on top of the gas one. These are usually very crude devices with little ability to tune them.

Dual fuel systems in my experience were always less than ideal. Propane’s higher octane rating requires a different timing regime so your engine will need to be tuned to one fuel or the other but never run well with both.

I honestly think that propane fuel has been under used/under researched for boosted engines. I think one neglected area is the potential to use the heat that is absorbed to convert it to a gas as a way to cool the intake charge. This would be especially pertinent in the air cooled engine application. Normally this is done with the cooling medium in a water cooled engine and of no real benefit to the intake charge.
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[Alstrup]

Propane fueled engine emissions ARE cleaner than gasoline, - PROVIDED that the installer knows how to adjust the system. Problem is, they don´t half of the systems out there (a bold statement, but I thinks its close) mask a poor running engine with too much fuel, just as on a gasoline engine. I dont remember the numbers anymore, but if memory serves a properly adjusted propane engine sends out 10 times less carbon compared to diesel and about half compared to a gasoline. Nox is a little higher compared to gasoline due to the higher combustion temperature. (Which is also why the newer cars fail after a propane conversion and Cat remove. That´s a no go.)

Today the heavy transport world are investigating propane assist on larger diesel engines to reduce CO2 and control Nox better, as a substitute until the worlds goverments can agee on whether they want to substitute the develpoment of propane and natural gas so there is a real and usable alternative to electric trucks which simply is not a viable solution for long distance heavy hauling. I know that both Mercedes and MAN is working with this, and most likely several other manufacturers. One GOOD thing with this solution is, that even in the lab tests it has been possible to stop using Adblue to control emissions. That alone is a very good thing for the enviroment, because Adblue is really not good for anything but reducing Nox, and that comes at a cost.

PS I should add, that the heavy diesel industry has actually been working with this on and off for the last 30 years, both to use it as a power adder for shorter periods such as steep hill climbs, and also for an emission reducer. Especially due to the latter it has picked up again in recent years.
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993

[oprn]

You are generous. I would go with 80% of propane vehicles are improperly adjusted.
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[raygreenwood]

[nextgen]

Ok I agree with everything you guys are saying and really looked into Propane during the Gas Embargo of the 60s and 70s.

There was lot of fear about the tank exploding and I have seen several blow up, when shot with a rifle. Actually most of the time it took two shots.

I know all the safe vehicles you guys mentioned, especially in Europe but here in the U.S. they are not allowed in Tunnels in NY and other states.

I believe it is not a explosion they are worried about but the gas escaping causing a fire, trapping people in the enclosed area. I traveled the Lincoln tunnel under the Hudson River for years, thought what it would be like to have cars stopped in front and behind in that tunnel during a Propane fire.

So, having a Propane car is not a good idea for a commuting between NY and NJ.
Wondering if travel with Tunnels under large bodies of water allowed.


What tunnels can you not drive through with propane?
LP-GAS PROHIBITED:
Maryland/Baltimore: Baltimore Harbor and Fort McHenry (I-95) tunnels. ...
Massachusetts/Boston Harbor: All tunnels.
New York/East River: Between Manhattan and Brooklyn: Brooklyn Battery Tunnel. ...
New York and New Jersey/Hudson River: Between Manhattan and Jersey City: Holland Tunnel.
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[nextgen]

To correctly end my last reply:


Allowed in Europe if so why would it be allow, what did you guys do to prevent a disaster?
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[ArnoudH]

I think the vast majority of cars converted to LPG here in the Netherlands are US-pickup trucks because of the fuel price(+/- 8$/gallon).Tanks are mounted inside and outside of the cabin,quite often in place of the spare tyre or behind the rear seat.The stift that our Belgian comrade mentioned is a piece of pipe that runs through the muffler and heats up the gas-it is no longer allowed in the Netherlands.**edit:a preheat pipe along the exhaust is allowed**Preheat is also done through the oil circuit.
The only tunnel I know of that prohibits LPG cars is the Eurotunnel between mainland Europe and the UK.A friend of mine has a LPG converted bug and he loves it-very cheap to run.

Cheers,Arnoud

[oprn]

The fire hazard with propane is two fold. First off is that when released to atmosphere it is ALL in a gas state and combustible immediately. Gasoline when spilled will burn much more slowly as it turns into a gas state so just the bit on the surface burns. Of course the heat it produces speed up the amount that is changing into a gas state…. So with propane in an in closed area you get a massive explosion, with gasoline you get a big fire.

The second problem is that propane in a gas state is heavier than air and tends to collect in low lying areas. Gasoline vapours don’t do that and disperse more readily. These two characteristics of propane is what lead to the bans in enclosed areas, tunnels, underground parking and ships.

I have been around propane powered vehicles for 30+ years and have NEVER seen a ruptured tank and that includes 15 years in a body shop. The tanks are hugely over built. You would have to run over them with a D9 Cat to burst them and even then only on a cement surface. The tank exploding fear is unfounded. Not the case with gasoline tanks though…. remember the Ford Pinto?

Propane started out on this country at less than 1/2 the price of gas. Many companies went to fleet conversions and lots of private individuals did too with very good results. When there was a sizeable number of conversations on the road suddenly there was a propane “shortage” and the price went stupid high. That totally killed the propane conversion industry and today very few exist and filling stations are as rare as hen’s teeth.
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[BFB]

yall talk about fuel price, safety, and regulations like u bunch of old men. isn't this the performance section of a vw based site, what about running propane as it relates to vw's?
_________________
Forced induction can overcome a lot of obsticles that gets in it's way
"You are the Engineer and the Mechanic.  
Build it your way not the way someone else does it. Their way might not work for you." - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
“ The monkey see monkey do mentality seems to run deep in VW people. "Gene Berg said it was so 30 years ago so thats the way it is" “ - bdkw1