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6 Volt Hard Start problem Solved--Finally--I think
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OKType3Tim Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:32 am    Post subject: 6 Volt Hard Start problem Solved--Finally--I think Reply with quote

The vehicle has had a hard start problem since before I purchased it. The PO had installed the typical "ford" relay solution, but with no improvement. When cool the car would struggle to barely turn over. When warmed up, ....well best just to wait a little bit. So I have struggled with this for many months.
    The first step was to make sure the ground straps from the transmission to the frame were in good condition and connected properly. I even doubled them up. No change.

    Next upgrade the battery cable, oversize on both the positive cable from the battery to the starter and oversize on the battery to ground in the battery compartment. (PO had welded a Large nut to the pan with 10mm bolt in an attempt to make it better.) No change.

    Checked the current draw of the "ford" relay and found that it is huge - 4 amps. Uninstalled and rebuilt the solution to use a modern relay, safely and accessibly installed. This eliminates a lot of current flowing through the ignition switch start contacts.

View from starter side:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


View from engine compartment side. I have this wire fused before the relay and the solenoid. I may go back and move the fuse to the other side of the bulkhead to protect the potential of the hot wire ever shorting to the bulkhead. Note that both bulkhead penetrations are grommeted:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


    While I was at it, I reworked the connections at the fuse block, using an extra 4 connection connector ahead of the headlight switch; to eliminate the extra clip on the fuse block which can also come loose or create a corrosion related voltage drop.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Still no real improvement in the problem.

    OK, back to square one---grounding. I decided to put in a real ground wire direct from the starter.

Get rid of these:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Fabricate new ground wire using 4 gauge welding wire.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Routing up and over the transmission.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And attached directly at the starter.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Now it works!

SO....why does the starter not ground well through the transmission case? I don't know the answer to that yet.

But the car is running, starting, and Saturday's road test to the show in Tahlequah, OK this weekend is a go.

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.
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Extra Credit. I think that this grounding issue also affected the ability of the generator to completely top off the battery. The evidence is that now, after a short test run, the battery is truly at it's max voltage, instead of being 1/2+ volt low.
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Last edited by OKType3Tim on Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Zundfolge1432 Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:45 am    Post subject: Re: 6 Volt Hard Start problem Solved--Finally--I think Reply with quote

A teaching moment this could/should be a sticky
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ataraxia
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:07 pm    Post subject: Re: 6 Volt Hard Start problem Solved--Finally--I think Reply with quote

Great write up, Tim!

One thing I did when I replaced my wiring harness was completely eliminate those little brass jumpers on my fuse block. A separate ground wire from the starter is a great (and simple) solution!
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sjbartnik
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:20 pm    Post subject: Re: 6 Volt Hard Start problem Solved--Finally--I think Reply with quote

Very interesting Tim!

When I bought my (6 volt) car it came with a welding-cable battery and ground strap but I didn't like it and replaced it with original style (WW battery cable and flat copper ground strap). Ground strap is connected between the transmission case and the body.

Kept hard start relay just to save the electrical wear and tear on the ignition switch.

I had noticed that cleaning up the starter mounting pad on the transmission case with a wire brush helped the starter to crank faster. Obviously no paint allowed there.

It usually cranked pretty quickly but as you mentioned if the engine was hot, it could get a little dicey.

Finally recently it started doing an occasional "click" when attempting starting. Troubleshot everything and traced the problem to the starter itself. Put in a Bosch rebuilt 6v starter and holy hell it cranks like a modern 12v car even when hot. Guess my OG starter was just tired. Very Happy

In your pics it looks like you already went the rebuilt starter route.

Interestingly my rebuilt starter came from Bosch and was rebuilt in Georgia (USA, not the other one).

At some point I'll tear the old one down and see what shape it's in.
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HenrikL
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:07 am    Post subject: Re: 6 Volt Hard Start problem Solved--Finally--I think Reply with quote

OKType3Tim wrote:

    While I was at it, I reworked the connections at the fuse block, using an extra 3-way connector ahead of the headlight switch; to eliminate the extra clip on the fuse block which can also come loose or create a corrosion related voltage drop.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Still no real improvement in the problem.


Can you tell more about this? Did you add a 3-way connector or remove an existing?
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:28 pm    Post subject: Re: 6 Volt Hard Start problem Solved--Finally--I think Reply with quote

HenrikL wrote:

Can you tell more about this? Did you add a 3-way connector or remove an existing?


Correction Note: I updated the original post for my typo to properly state "4 connection connector"

The vehicle that is the subject of this post is a 1966 T34. Browsing the wiring diagrams in the "Workshop Manual Volkswagen Type 3"; This situation started in May of 64 when they loaded 3 power wires onto position 8 of the fuse block. Since the fuse block part only had 2 connections, a clip was used to create 3 connections. Studying the individual wiring diagrams for other models, from August of 65 they chose to move the multiple connections to position 30 of the headlight switch.

Here is the wiring diagram that I've used for my vehicle:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I used the "4 connection connector" as laid out here:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The power feed to the cigar lighter, horn and fog light relays remained on position 8 of the fuse block.

The slide on clip has caused me trouble in the past, mainly being loose and thus not always a solid connection. In spite of being crimped, tightened, etc.

Thanks for asking.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:51 pm    Post subject: Re: 6 Volt Hard Start problem Solved--Finally--I think Reply with quote

sjbartnik wrote:
... replaced it with original style (WW battery cable and flat copper ground strap). Ground strap is connected between the transmission case and the body.

Kept hard start relay just to save the electrical wear and tear on the ignition switch.

... Obviously no paint allowed there.

...In your pics it looks like you already went the rebuilt starter route.



Thanks.

Yes, I used two original ground straps, cleaned up the body frame connection, cleaned up the transmission attachment locations.

I purchased the relay that I used from Newark Electronics:
https://www.newark.com/potter-brumfield-te-connect...=1432873-1

The problem persisted through a transmission change out. With the replacement transmission case having been thoroughly cleaned and rid of all traces of paint.

There was the starter that was on the car when I purchased it. I purchased a rebuild Bosch unit, then a rebuilt unit from O'Reilly Auto parts-which is what is in the car now. I was pleasantly surprised by the O'Reilly unit. Low cost ($74) and attention to details on the rebuild. I'm sure that my putting amps through a stalled starter motor was not good for the first two units.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:24 am    Post subject: Re: 6 Volt Hard Start problem Solved--Finally--I think Reply with quote

OKType3Tim wrote:
Correction Note: I updated the original post for my typo to properly state "4 connection connector"

The vehicle that is the subject of this post is a 1966 T34. Browsing the wiring diagrams in the "Workshop Manual Volkswagen Type 3"; This situation started in May of 64 when they loaded 3 power wires onto position 8 of the fuse block. Since the fuse block part only had 2 connections, a clip was used to create 3 connections. Studying the individual wiring diagrams for other models, from August of 65 they chose to move the multiple connections to position 30 of the headlight switch.

Ok, good to know. The reason I asked was because my september 1963 Notch has the "slide-on clip", but according to the wiring diagram it should not have it. I need to have a look where the 3 wires go.

Where did you find a "4 connection connector"? I can only find 3 connections Y-shaped ones.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:13 am    Post subject: Re: 6 Volt Hard Start problem Solved--Finally--I think Reply with quote

HenrikL wrote:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I have used those piggyback connectors, but they seemed to vibrate loose over time. Instead, I use the insulated "Y" connector VW used elsewhere. A couple more crimps and an additional wire (best if color-coded), but it is insulated and relieves the stress on the original connector tab.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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ataraxia
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:14 am    Post subject: Re: 6 Volt Hard Start problem Solved--Finally--I think Reply with quote

HenrikL wrote:

Where did you find a "4 connection connector"? I can only find 3 connections Y-shaped ones.


Swapping to a 12 slot fuse block isn't that tough and it gives you the extra spades needed. Electrical issues are so much easier to resolve without all of the jumpers and such.

The 4 block connectors are on eBay in the UK:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/333332441433?hash=item4d9c296959:g:5nEAAOSwKF1dgLSs

Or they're about $0.85 each if you buy 100pc. from a distributor.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:43 am    Post subject: Re: 6 Volt Hard Start problem Solved--Finally--I think Reply with quote

HenrikL wrote:
Where did you find a "4 connection connector"? I can only find 3 connections Y-shaped ones.


As ataraxia noted above, they are available new.

I have both 3 connection and 4 connection units that I have accumulated from various trips through salvage yards and stripping old harnesses from vehicles.

I could have accomplished the task with a 3-connection connector by continuing to use the additional connection at position 30 on the headlight switch. As noted by KTPhil.
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