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OKType3Tim Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2011 Posts: 279 Location: Northeast Oklahoma
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:32 am Post subject: 6 Volt Hard Start problem Solved--Finally--I think |
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The vehicle has had a hard start problem since before I purchased it. The PO had installed the typical "ford" relay solution, but with no improvement. When cool the car would struggle to barely turn over. When warmed up, ....well best just to wait a little bit. So I have struggled with this for many months.
The first step was to make sure the ground straps from the transmission to the frame were in good condition and connected properly. I even doubled them up. No change.
Next upgrade the battery cable, oversize on both the positive cable from the battery to the starter and oversize on the battery to ground in the battery compartment. (PO had welded a Large nut to the pan with 10mm bolt in an attempt to make it better.) No change.
Checked the current draw of the "ford" relay and found that it is huge - 4 amps. Uninstalled and rebuilt the solution to use a modern relay, safely and accessibly installed. This eliminates a lot of current flowing through the ignition switch start contacts.
View from starter side:
View from engine compartment side. I have this wire fused before the relay and the solenoid. I may go back and move the fuse to the other side of the bulkhead to protect the potential of the hot wire ever shorting to the bulkhead. Note that both bulkhead penetrations are grommeted:
While I was at it, I reworked the connections at the fuse block, using an extra 4 connection connector ahead of the headlight switch; to eliminate the extra clip on the fuse block which can also come loose or create a corrosion related voltage drop.
Still no real improvement in the problem.
OK, back to square one---grounding. I decided to put in a real ground wire direct from the starter.
Get rid of these:
Fabricate new ground wire using 4 gauge welding wire.
Routing up and over the transmission.
And attached directly at the starter.
Now it works!
SO....why does the starter not ground well through the transmission case? I don't know the answer to that yet.
But the car is running, starting, and Saturday's road test to the show in Tahlequah, OK this weekend is a go.
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Extra Credit. I think that this grounding issue also affected the ability of the generator to completely top off the battery. The evidence is that now, after a short test run, the battery is truly at it's max voltage, instead of being 1/2+ volt low. _________________ '69 Squareback restoration
'69 Fastback restoration
'66 Type34
Last edited by OKType3Tim on Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:48 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12452
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:45 am Post subject: Re: 6 Volt Hard Start problem Solved--Finally--I think |
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A teaching moment this could/should be a sticky |
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ataraxia Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010 Posts: 4504 Location: Illinois
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: 6 Volt Hard Start problem Solved--Finally--I think |
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Great write up, Tim!
One thing I did when I replaced my wiring harness was completely eliminate those little brass jumpers on my fuse block. A separate ground wire from the starter is a great (and simple) solution! |
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sjbartnik Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011 Posts: 5986 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:20 pm Post subject: Re: 6 Volt Hard Start problem Solved--Finally--I think |
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Very interesting Tim!
When I bought my (6 volt) car it came with a welding-cable battery and ground strap but I didn't like it and replaced it with original style (WW battery cable and flat copper ground strap). Ground strap is connected between the transmission case and the body.
Kept hard start relay just to save the electrical wear and tear on the ignition switch.
I had noticed that cleaning up the starter mounting pad on the transmission case with a wire brush helped the starter to crank faster. Obviously no paint allowed there.
It usually cranked pretty quickly but as you mentioned if the engine was hot, it could get a little dicey.
Finally recently it started doing an occasional "click" when attempting starting. Troubleshot everything and traced the problem to the starter itself. Put in a Bosch rebuilt 6v starter and holy hell it cranks like a modern 12v car even when hot. Guess my OG starter was just tired.
In your pics it looks like you already went the rebuilt starter route.
Interestingly my rebuilt starter came from Bosch and was rebuilt in Georgia (USA, not the other one).
At some point I'll tear the old one down and see what shape it's in. _________________ 1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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HenrikL Samba Member
Joined: October 31, 2005 Posts: 313 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:07 am Post subject: Re: 6 Volt Hard Start problem Solved--Finally--I think |
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OKType3Tim wrote: |
While I was at it, I reworked the connections at the fuse block, using an extra 3-way connector ahead of the headlight switch; to eliminate the extra clip on the fuse block which can also come loose or create a corrosion related voltage drop.
Still no real improvement in the problem. |
Can you tell more about this? Did you add a 3-way connector or remove an existing? |
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OKType3Tim Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2011 Posts: 279 Location: Northeast Oklahoma
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Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:28 pm Post subject: Re: 6 Volt Hard Start problem Solved--Finally--I think |
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HenrikL wrote: |
Can you tell more about this? Did you add a 3-way connector or remove an existing? |
Correction Note: I updated the original post for my typo to properly state "4 connection connector"
The vehicle that is the subject of this post is a 1966 T34. Browsing the wiring diagrams in the "Workshop Manual Volkswagen Type 3"; This situation started in May of 64 when they loaded 3 power wires onto position 8 of the fuse block. Since the fuse block part only had 2 connections, a clip was used to create 3 connections. Studying the individual wiring diagrams for other models, from August of 65 they chose to move the multiple connections to position 30 of the headlight switch.
Here is the wiring diagram that I've used for my vehicle:
I used the "4 connection connector" as laid out here:
The power feed to the cigar lighter, horn and fog light relays remained on position 8 of the fuse block.
The slide on clip has caused me trouble in the past, mainly being loose and thus not always a solid connection. In spite of being crimped, tightened, etc.
Thanks for asking. _________________ '69 Squareback restoration
'69 Fastback restoration
'66 Type34 |
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OKType3Tim Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2011 Posts: 279 Location: Northeast Oklahoma
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Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:51 pm Post subject: Re: 6 Volt Hard Start problem Solved--Finally--I think |
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sjbartnik wrote: |
... replaced it with original style (WW battery cable and flat copper ground strap). Ground strap is connected between the transmission case and the body.
Kept hard start relay just to save the electrical wear and tear on the ignition switch.
... Obviously no paint allowed there.
...In your pics it looks like you already went the rebuilt starter route.
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Thanks.
Yes, I used two original ground straps, cleaned up the body frame connection, cleaned up the transmission attachment locations.
I purchased the relay that I used from Newark Electronics:
https://www.newark.com/potter-brumfield-te-connect...=1432873-1
The problem persisted through a transmission change out. With the replacement transmission case having been thoroughly cleaned and rid of all traces of paint.
There was the starter that was on the car when I purchased it. I purchased a rebuild Bosch unit, then a rebuilt unit from O'Reilly Auto parts-which is what is in the car now. I was pleasantly surprised by the O'Reilly unit. Low cost ($74) and attention to details on the rebuild. I'm sure that my putting amps through a stalled starter motor was not good for the first two units. _________________ '69 Squareback restoration
'69 Fastback restoration
'66 Type34 |
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HenrikL Samba Member
Joined: October 31, 2005 Posts: 313 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:24 am Post subject: Re: 6 Volt Hard Start problem Solved--Finally--I think |
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OKType3Tim wrote: |
Correction Note: I updated the original post for my typo to properly state "4 connection connector"
The vehicle that is the subject of this post is a 1966 T34. Browsing the wiring diagrams in the "Workshop Manual Volkswagen Type 3"; This situation started in May of 64 when they loaded 3 power wires onto position 8 of the fuse block. Since the fuse block part only had 2 connections, a clip was used to create 3 connections. Studying the individual wiring diagrams for other models, from August of 65 they chose to move the multiple connections to position 30 of the headlight switch. |
Ok, good to know. The reason I asked was because my september 1963 Notch has the "slide-on clip", but according to the wiring diagram it should not have it. I need to have a look where the 3 wires go.
Where did you find a "4 connection connector"? I can only find 3 connections Y-shaped ones. |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33875 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:13 am Post subject: Re: 6 Volt Hard Start problem Solved--Finally--I think |
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I have used those piggyback connectors, but they seemed to vibrate loose over time. Instead, I use the insulated "Y" connector VW used elsewhere. A couple more crimps and an additional wire (best if color-coded), but it is insulated and relieves the stress on the original connector tab.
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ataraxia Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010 Posts: 4504 Location: Illinois
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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:14 am Post subject: Re: 6 Volt Hard Start problem Solved--Finally--I think |
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HenrikL wrote: |
Where did you find a "4 connection connector"? I can only find 3 connections Y-shaped ones. |
Swapping to a 12 slot fuse block isn't that tough and it gives you the extra spades needed. Electrical issues are so much easier to resolve without all of the jumpers and such.
The 4 block connectors are on eBay in the UK:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/333332441433?hash=item4d9c296959:g:5nEAAOSwKF1dgLSs
Or they're about $0.85 each if you buy 100pc. from a distributor. |
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OKType3Tim Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2011 Posts: 279 Location: Northeast Oklahoma
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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:43 am Post subject: Re: 6 Volt Hard Start problem Solved--Finally--I think |
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HenrikL wrote: |
Where did you find a "4 connection connector"? I can only find 3 connections Y-shaped ones. |
As ataraxia noted above, they are available new.
I have both 3 connection and 4 connection units that I have accumulated from various trips through salvage yards and stripping old harnesses from vehicles.
I could have accomplished the task with a 3-connection connector by continuing to use the additional connection at position 30 on the headlight switch. As noted by KTPhil. _________________ '69 Squareback restoration
'69 Fastback restoration
'66 Type34 |
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