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Vanapplebomb Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010 Posts: 5389 Location: Holland, MI
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Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:35 am Post subject: Re: Favorite Milling Machine Tooling for Opening Up Head Registers |
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I am really liking the rotary table idea. Then I can just use my standard end mills. As a bonus, there are other operations where a rotary table would come in handy, so it’s really a win win situation. _________________ 1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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esde Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2007 Posts: 5927 Location: central rust belt
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Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:17 am Post subject: Re: Favorite Milling Machine Tooling for Opening Up Head Registers |
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A rotary table sounds like a lot more setup to make sure the hole is centered where it's supposed to be. Think, you'd have to make sure the cylinder register is centered on the rotary table 1x for each cylinder. That's fine for guys that are used to hogging stuff out on a drill press with a fixed table, but for a mill? If you use a boring head of some sort, you just clamp the head or case so it's parallel with the X axis and go. Just my .02 _________________ modok wrote:
Bent cranks are silent but gather no moss. I mean, ah, something like that. |
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Vanapplebomb Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010 Posts: 5389 Location: Holland, MI
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Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:28 am Post subject: Re: Favorite Milling Machine Tooling for Opening Up Head Registers |
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That is the downside, the second setup. You would have to indicate your table, and then the head on the table. Either way, I may be in the market for one for circular hole patterns. It is worth a shot on a pair of scrap heads.
I may have to keep an eye out for a used automatic boring head one eBay or machinist groups on Facebook. They look pretty slick, but are not cheap from what I see. I would have to get a fair amount of use out of it before it would pay off. I think it would make life a lot easier to face with than a standard boring head where you have to pull out and manually readjust each time you step it up. _________________ 1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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Tobias Bylund Samba Member
Joined: December 10, 2007 Posts: 202 Location: Varberg - Sweden
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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:06 am Post subject: Re: Favorite Milling Machine Tooling for Opening Up Head Registers |
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I have a small Wohlhaupter UPA-2, and while it works great to both bore and face with there is a downside to me; that the advance/feed when facing is not adjustable, i find it advancing to much on each revolution, and the surface finish suffers as a result, i get these tiny ridges all along the cut face. My technique to deal with this is to just barely hold onto it, letting it slip in my hand to advance the slide less than it is supposed to per revolution, but that doesn´t seem right to me, but i dont know, i have not used one prior to getting this for my mill.
Any tips for improving the surface finish would be greatly appreciated. |
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RWK Samba Member
Joined: June 24, 2009 Posts: 1337 Location: S.W. MI
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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:53 am Post subject: Re: Favorite Milling Machine Tooling for Opening Up Head Registers |
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Vanapplebomb wrote: |
I am really liking the rotary table idea. Then I can just use my standard end mills. As a bonus, there are other operations where a rotary table would come in handy, so it’s really a win win situation. |
You can/should use corner radius end mills,no sharp corner. I cut all my heads with .015 R min. Build a fixture plate (alum tooling plate works well) that locates the rocker studs, should get you close then indicate the rest of the way in. There are advantages to using rotary table, better control of you D.O.C. (have DRO?) and less worry about head being trammed in perfect, end mill will still cut flat surface it will just be a little rougher finish.
If you come across a rotary cross slide table for cheap, grab it then you can do some really cool milling, common in mold shops, what we used up until the 80's when CNC became common in small shops, I know there are lots of mold shops in your neighborhood. _________________ 73 Type 181
63 Type 113
63 Type 261- 428 071
62 Type 241-378 025 178 530 |
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nsracing Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2003 Posts: 9437 Location: NOVA
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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:29 pm Post subject: Re: Favorite Milling Machine Tooling for Opening Up Head Registers |
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Tobias Bylund wrote: |
I have a small Wohlhaupter UPA-2, and while it works great to both bore and face with there is a downside to me; that the advance/feed when facing is not adjustable, i find it advancing to much on each revolution, and the surface finish suffers as a result, i get these tiny ridges all along the cut face. My technique to deal with this is to just barely hold onto it, letting it slip in my hand to advance the slide less than it is supposed to per revolution, but that doesn´t seem right to me, but i dont know, i have not used one prior to getting this for my mill.
Any tips for improving the surface finish would be greatly appreciated. |
If it is roughing while you engage the feed ring ---means you did not engage the back gears. There is a button that has to be dis-engaged to use the feed ring - this will engage the back gears. If you leave the button in - the feed ring will still feed but ...reversed ...and it will cut very rough. The feed ring I think cuts half-thou every revolution when the back gears are engaged. YOu can feel the gears run when you grab the ring.
And loosening the grip on the ring at the end up cut will cut even finer....you do that as you approach the end of cut ..or corner.
Also - to setup a rotary to bore or face a hole ..is just too much damn work. A single cutting toolbit going around is just simpler.
A broached square to mount a toolbit will not be accurate - it will have some 'dip' as it cuts a very large swath. I can imagine the chatter cutting that wide all at once....basically a large plunge cut. geehus! |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26741 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:56 pm Post subject: Re: Favorite Milling Machine Tooling for Opening Up Head Registers |
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Possibly he needs to sharpen the tool differently, or change the balance, loose bearings? it could be any reason.
.002" per revolution feed should be OK,
Going to a slower feed may APPEAR to be a better finish to they eyeball, but not to the cylinder. |
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Tobias Bylund Samba Member
Joined: December 10, 2007 Posts: 202 Location: Varberg - Sweden
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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:14 pm Post subject: Re: Favorite Milling Machine Tooling for Opening Up Head Registers |
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Quote: |
If it is roughing while you engage the feed ring ---means you did not engage the back gears. There is a button that has to be dis-engaged to use the feed ring - this will engage the back gears. If you leave the button in - the feed ring will still feed but ...reversed ...and it will cut very rough. The feed ring I think cuts half-thou every revolution when the back gears are engaged. YOu can feel the gears run when you grab the ring.
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Thanks, i will look into that, i am pretty sure i had the button disengaged, as the two rings were moving independently but will look closer at it and try again. It is not cutting reversed, i am sure about that, i am putting the mill in reverse to also reverse the tool bit after the cut.
The tool is a very sharp single point tool, boring head type tool.
the feedrate is .0022, and the quick return is .04, so it should not be very rough, .0022 is not alot.
Thanks for the suggestions, will have a look at it again and try some more cuts! |
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RWK Samba Member
Joined: June 24, 2009 Posts: 1337 Location: S.W. MI
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Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:43 am Post subject: Re: Favorite Milling Machine Tooling for Opening Up Head Registers |
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May try a slight nose radius on the tool tip, the "very sharp" was the clue, a radius always leaves a better finish, use a hone stone to round the edge .1-.2 mm.
Also make sure tool point is on center line or a little behind, you may not be cutting on the tip. _________________ 73 Type 181
63 Type 113
63 Type 261- 428 071
62 Type 241-378 025 178 530 |
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Vanapplebomb Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010 Posts: 5389 Location: Holland, MI
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Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: Favorite Milling Machine Tooling for Opening Up Head Registers |
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Modok, found this the other day. Looks a lot like what you did, modifying a boring head for HSS square stock.
_________________ 1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26741 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: Favorite Milling Machine Tooling for Opening Up Head Registers |
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Yep I've seen lots of big ones just not many small ones.
If that works at all, then that proves it's possible and then some.
Since mine is 10mm larger body, less projection, one piece r8 shank, and I have my tool mounted with the cutting face "on center" to .125 behind, instead of 1/4 ahead of center as seen here.
Unfortunately not enough metal in that one to cut the groove any larger than it already is to offset the toobit any farther.
Not bragging just sayin. That's 2x more jankey, but if it works it works. |
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Vanapplebomb Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010 Posts: 5389 Location: Holland, MI
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Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 2:47 pm Post subject: Re: Favorite Milling Machine Tooling for Opening Up Head Registers |
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Yeah, there is no meat in the head to bring that cutter back so the face is on center. No choice in his case but to have the cutting face ahead of the axis. _________________ 1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26741 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 2:52 pm Post subject: Re: Favorite Milling Machine Tooling for Opening Up Head Registers |
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If the tool was 1/4 wide then it would be on center, but if it was only 1/4 wide then IMo it should not project out of the body more than 3/4, so, close but not quite there
Those WBX heads are BIG!, I did some with a 4" enco automatic boring head, it didn't have enough travel to do it all in one pass. |
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mxracer Samba Member
Joined: April 09, 2011 Posts: 568 Location: NC
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Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:38 am Post subject: Re: Favorite Milling Machine Tooling for Opening Up Head Registers |
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I don't post much here anymore mainly cause of the BS on page 2 of this thread but in the spirit of sharing here's my setup.... and before more BS starts I have cut MANY MANY cases and heads with this setup without issues.
Also not saying this is the best way or the only way... just another way that I find easy to use and accurate, assuming that when the setup gauges are turned a .0001" mic is used and they are accurate.
The cutters are made from 1045 round bar and the setup gauges are aluminum. Simple to make and simple to setup. Original 2 tools were done by a tool and die maker buddy and I did the rest of them and all the gauges.
I have gauges for each case/head combination. Laid out in this photo is a sample of the tooling. I use the 1/2" HSS for cutting heads and the carbide brazed tooling for cases since the surface area on the case is not as wide.
Little closer shot of a cutter and setup gauge.
Setup again is simple. Seen in this pic, just mount the tool in the mill, loosen up the grub screws and use the side of a scale or parallel or whatever to push the tool tip flush with the gauge. In the pic I left the tip a little proud to show it.
Here's a close up of one of the case tools, using standard carbide brazed lathe tooling.
I also have one setup for decking cases. Once I bore the case it's a simple matter of a tool change to deck the hole before moving to the next.
I grind the tools straight/flat/parallel on a tool grinder using a jig I made up to hold the tool.
EDIT: Ha.. here's a pic I just found in my gallery from 2012 testing them out.
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BFB Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2014 Posts: 1689
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Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:13 pm Post subject: Re: Favorite Milling Machine Tooling for Opening Up Head Registers |
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mxracer wrote: |
I don't post much here anymore mainly cause of the BS on page 2 of this thread but in the spirit of sharing here's my setup.... and before more BS starts I have cut MANY MANY cases and heads with this setup without issues.
Also not saying this is the best way or the only way... just another way that I find easy to use and accurate, assuming that when the setup gauges are turned a .0001" mic is used and they are accurate.
The cutters are made from 1045 round bar and the setup gauges are aluminum. Simple to make and simple to setup. Original 2 tools were done by a tool and die maker buddy and I did the rest of them and all the gauges.
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I wasn't even going to read this thread because it just had pissing match written all over it, until I saw your pics while browsing the gallery.
nice tools and good idea _________________ Forced induction can overcome a lot of obsticles that gets in it's way
"You are the Engineer and the Mechanic.
Build it your way not the way someone else does it. Their way might not work for you." - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
“ The monkey see monkey do mentality seems to run deep in VW people. "Gene Berg said it was so 30 years ago so thats the way it is" “ - bdkw1 |
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Vanapplebomb Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010 Posts: 5389 Location: Holland, MI
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Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:53 pm Post subject: Re: Favorite Milling Machine Tooling for Opening Up Head Registers |
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Rotary table setup with a 911 head. Similar to what I am thinking. A sheet of cast tool and jig plate secured with the T- slots on the table, and taps in the jig plate for mounting the head. With a nice sheet of 3/4 thick cast tool and jig plate, a VW head could be held rigidly even with a modest sized rotary table.
_________________ 1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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