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atomatom Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2012 Posts: 1867 Location: in an 84 Westy or Bowen Island, BC
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Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 4:59 pm Post subject: starter hesitates on first try, fine on second |
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with some consistency, on the first key turn, my van will try and turn the engine then stop. i turn it off, and turn it back on again and starter turns quite readily and it starts.
any ideas on what is failing? ignition switch? the relay that turns all things off but the starter?
my van used to have a starter relay; it currently does not. i may add one back in (po's relay was wired under the van and got wet on the highway and kicked in) _________________ 84 Vanagon Westy, 1.9L, California raised but defected to Canada. |
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SCM Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2011 Posts: 3102 Location: Bozeman MT
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Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:15 pm Post subject: Re: starter hesitates on first try, fine on second |
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You don’t get anywhere in a hurry in these things. What’s a second turn of the key? I’d probably just live with it.
Sorry I can’t offer any real advice. 😉 _________________ '91 Westfalia GL Automatic (GTA "Turbo" Rebuild w/Peloquin) and 2.3L GoWesty Engine |
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atomatom Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2012 Posts: 1867 Location: in an 84 Westy or Bowen Island, BC
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Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 6:46 pm Post subject: Re: starter hesitates on first try, fine on second |
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ha. yeah, i'm living with it. your advice is real and pragmatic. _________________ 84 Vanagon Westy, 1.9L, California raised but defected to Canada. |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50265
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Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:13 pm Post subject: Re: starter hesitates on first try, fine on second |
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If the starter solenoid is staying in the pull in mode for some reason, then the ignition switch will have a short life. I would be wanting to know what is failing here as a corollary to Murphy's law is sure to apply itself; "Things will go wrong at the worst possible time" |
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floodwood Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2017 Posts: 160 Location: Cambridge, MA
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Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:35 pm Post subject: Re: starter hesitates on first try, fine on second |
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I am also having this same exact issue after having just replaced my starter (TDI with the adapter plate) and a fresh ignition switch. |
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TomInAlaska Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2007 Posts: 385 Location: Anchorage, Ak
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Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: starter hesitates on first try, fine on second |
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Start with the basics:
Is the positive connection on the battery (starter, if you have more than one) clean and tight? Same question on the starter itself: All connections clean and tight? How about the grounds? Have you added an auxiliary ground strap/cable from the starter mounting bolt to the body yet? How old is the starter itself? If it has more than a few years on it, the inside of the solenoid may be dirty and/or corroded. Whatever it is, do not accept it and do not just live with it! It can and will fail completely to start at the most inopportune time. _________________ '73 Super Beetle (resto-mod/rally look, 1776)
'84 GL adventure van project (1.9L, 4speed) https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=755844&highlight= |
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atomatom Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2012 Posts: 1867 Location: in an 84 Westy or Bowen Island, BC
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Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:38 pm Post subject: Re: starter hesitates on first try, fine on second |
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this isn't a weak/no start. pretty predictably it fails on the first try.
what is kind of amusing, is my family and ex-vanagon friends go, "oh no", on the first start. and the second start it goes like nothing was wrong. _________________ 84 Vanagon Westy, 1.9L, California raised but defected to Canada. |
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DuncanS Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013 Posts: 4580 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:49 pm Post subject: Re: starter hesitates on first try, fine on second |
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Do NOT just live with it. I'll betcha there is an electrical connection which has corroded and it arcs across just enough so on the second try some of the crud has been electrical discharged machined away and you get a start. Do all the cables in terms of removing, cleaning and replacing and put a ground strap directly to the starter.
There was also a recent thread which had a post dealing with this issue interns of advance.
You WILL get stranded. And it will be in East Overshoe with no cell service with a 10 mile walk to the nearest habitation.
Duncan |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50265
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Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:02 pm Post subject: Re: starter hesitates on first try, fine on second |
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If your timing is way advanced or the compression is too high the starter motor may not be able to get the engine past TDC on the first try, but once some of the compression bleeds off it will go over the top easily enough. |
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atomatom Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2012 Posts: 1867 Location: in an 84 Westy or Bowen Island, BC
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Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:12 pm Post subject: Re: starter hesitates on first try, fine on second |
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thx wildthings - it really feel like it something like compression. constipated on first turn. i'll check the timing. _________________ 84 Vanagon Westy, 1.9L, California raised but defected to Canada. |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22573 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:57 am Post subject: Re: starter hesitates on first try, fine on second |
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If you haven’t serviced the starter in 5 years or more, take it to a rebuild shop and have it reworked for $100
Much better than the Bosch crap of today
Or keep driving it , score the commutator making it useless , and then start the cheap crap parts cycle whine thread on yet another car _________________ .ssS! |
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Steve M. Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013 Posts: 6798 Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:57 am Post subject: Re: starter hesitates on first try, fine on second |
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I once had a Landrover that would do similar things trying to start. Spin good one time next time hard to turn.
Turns out somebody dropped the starter and must have landed on the shaft putting a slight hard see bend in it. The shaft and the Bendix gear would bind on the flywheel from rhe increased pressure. Outside on the ground it wiuld spin fine, but you could see the shaft was not straight. _________________ This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them. |
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atomatom Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2012 Posts: 1867 Location: in an 84 Westy or Bowen Island, BC
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Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:16 am Post subject: Re: starter hesitates on first try, fine on second |
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yeah, i am aware of the fact that you can burn out electric motors if you run current and they don't spin. when it hesitates to start, i stop turning the ignition.
the current starter was probably replaced about 5 years ago (bosch rebuild) - and with a higher power diesel one. and when that went in, it initially turned like a modern car - night and day difference to the one it replaced. i'd hope for more than 5 years life from a starter, but then i often drive it up a ski hill the past few winters with all that fine salt water on the roads, so...
i'll check timing and maybe pull the starter and see what i can to give it a clean. related on the timing front, could valve lash also be a factor here, eg too much preload or uneven preload.
thanks for all the replies. _________________ 84 Vanagon Westy, 1.9L, California raised but defected to Canada. |
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ThinkingD Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2020 Posts: 129 Location: Ottawa Ontario Canada
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Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:58 am Post subject: Re: starter hesitates on first try, fine on second |
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May be your starter, may be the ignition switch. I would carry a spare ignition switch if you don't already have one. _________________ 87 Titian Red Westfalia 2.0 VW I4 SOHC manual Ottawa, Ontario |
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9.5isCanadian Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2017 Posts: 465 Location: In your blind spot.
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Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:11 pm Post subject: Re: starter hesitates on first try, fine on second |
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Wildthings wrote: |
If your timing is way advanced or the compression is too high the starter motor may not be able to get the engine past TDC on the first try, but once some of the compression bleeds off it will go over the top easily enough. |
atomatom wrote: |
thx wildthings - it really feel like it something like compression. constipated on first turn. i'll check the timing. |
Classic cause of what the OP describes. _________________ 9 1/2 - missing a few pieces.
1987 Getaway Hightop
1980 Sunroof Vanagon
2018 BMW R Nine T
2012 Golf tdi |
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floodwood Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2017 Posts: 160 Location: Cambridge, MA
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Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: starter hesitates on first try, fine on second |
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Both atomatom and I both have the high torque diesel starters. Shouldn’t the higher torque of these starters compensate for any compression related timing issues if they are designed for much higher torque diesel applications?
As for ground - I learned recently on the forum that I can ground directly to the body using one of the mounting bolts and a new ground strap. However, to ground to the body, will I have to drill in to make a new ground post? What would be the best way to accomplish that? |
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atomatom Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2012 Posts: 1867 Location: in an 84 Westy or Bowen Island, BC
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Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:57 pm Post subject: Re: starter hesitates on first try, fine on second |
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the compression is, optimistically, around 100psi. to go from 0 to 100 in turn is quite a bit of force.
an easy test would be remove the spark plugs then try the starter. same thing or not. _________________ 84 Vanagon Westy, 1.9L, California raised but defected to Canada. |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50265
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Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:20 pm Post subject: Re: starter hesitates on first try, fine on second |
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floodwood wrote: |
Both atomatom and I both have the high torque diesel starters. Shouldn’t the higher torque of these starters compensate for any compression related timing issues if they are designed for much higher torque diesel applications? |
If the timing is too far advanced the starter will have to fight not only the compression but the full pressure of the burning mixture. That can bring a fairly powerful starter to a halt. |
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The Pilch Samba Member
Joined: December 04, 2013 Posts: 628 Location: Utah
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Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:23 pm Post subject: Re: starter hesitates on first try, fine on second |
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This has been an interesting thread subject, thank you atomatom for posting, and all you fine fellows for your responses.
At the risk of hijacking this thread, my starter sometimes spins free - without turning the engine. Sounds like if one was bench testing a starter, just a whirring. I would say it does this once in every ten starts.
It sounds like maybe I have the same problem but in a less advanced state?
I will get to the cabling and grounds because as DuncanS says, East Overshoe with no cell service is not a good place to be stranded in October because of a faulty starter. _________________ '85 Vanagon GL, weekender package, 1.9 wbx named Freddie/ '61 Beetle named Ringo/ '78 Dodge Monaco which is nothing like the Bluesmobile so please don't cast that oily rag upon it. |
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4Gears4Tires Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2018 Posts: 2983 Location: MD
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Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:24 pm Post subject: Re: starter hesitates on first try, fine on second |
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Wildthings wrote: |
floodwood wrote: |
Both atomatom and I both have the high torque diesel starters. Shouldn’t the higher torque of these starters compensate for any compression related timing issues if they are designed for much higher torque diesel applications? |
If the timing is too far advanced the starter will have to fight not only the compression but the full pressure of the burning mixture. That can bring a fairly powerful starter to a halt. |
Agreed. Think about it, a high torque starter is maybe 3hp? 4? A wbx probably puts out 4hp at idle. _________________ '87 Syncro
Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition |
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