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atomatom
Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2012
Posts: 1867
Location: in an 84 Westy or Bowen Island, BC
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 Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:43 pm Post subject: Re: starter hesitates on first try, fine on second |
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| The Pilch wrote: |
At the risk of hijacking this thread, my starter sometimes spins free - without turning the engine. Sounds like if one was bench testing a starter, just a whirring. I would say it does this once in every ten starts.
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this is the solenoid - a little arm that throws the starter gear onto the flywheel gear.. probably gunked up and sticking - you may be able to clean it up. an upside of this failure is you won't burn the motor out, but you may get stranded if it decides to stay stuck.
*edit* - it isn't a little arm. it is a small elf. or magic. 
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84 Vanagon Westy, 1.9L, California raised but defected to Canada. |
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The Pilch
Samba Member
Joined: December 04, 2013
Posts: 628
Location: Utah
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| Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:05 pm Post subject: Re: starter hesitates on first try, fine on second |
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| atomatom wrote: |
| The Pilch wrote: |
At the risk of hijacking this thread, my starter sometimes spins free - without turning the engine. Sounds like if one was bench testing a starter, just a whirring. I would say it does this once in every ten starts.
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this is the solenoid - a little arm that throws the starter gear onto the flywheel gear.. probably gunked up and sticking - you may be able to clean it up. an upside of this failure is you won't burn the motor out, but you may get stranded if it decides to stay stuck.
*edit* - it isn't a little arm. it is a small elf. or magic. |
Ahhh the small magic elf - I know him well. The same elf that messed with my 67 rear brakes for 3 weeks. I believe the very same elf that broke my throttle cable and I'm going to go out on a limb and say, the same sunsabitch elf that emptied my master cylinder on a test drive....yeah that elf can kiss my....
After some digging around on the samba and youtube, I agree with your suggestion that it's the solenoid atomatom - I am hoping you are also right in the suggestion that I can clean it up and be good to go. I like how accessible the starter is compared to what I'm used to, so I'll take all the advice from this thread and get onto fixing that - cheers!! Back on topic...sorry for the hijack!
I hope you get your issue fixed up too! 
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'85 Vanagon GL, weekender package, 1.9 wbx named Freddie/ '61 Beetle named Ringo/ '78 Dodge Monaco which is nothing like the Bluesmobile so please don't cast that oily rag upon it. |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50331
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| Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:34 pm Post subject: Re: starter hesitates on first try, fine on second |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| floodwood wrote: |
| Both atomatom and I both have the high torque diesel starters. Shouldn’t the higher torque of these starters compensate for any compression related timing issues if they are designed for much higher torque diesel applications? |
If the timing is too far advanced the starter will have to fight not only the compression but the full pressure of the burning mixture. That can bring a fairly powerful starter to a halt. |
This can of course be caused by the timing being set incorrectly, but it can also be caused by the mechanical advance being gummed up or damaged which keeps the advance from dropping to the proper timing at idle. Since these distributors were originally designed to be lubricated every ten thousand miles or so when the ignition points were replaced, but now typically go many tens of thousands of miles without being lubricated because Hall units seldom must be touched, the advance units are likely both worn and gummed up and give less than stellar performance. |
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kguarnotta
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2004
Posts: 1160
Location: Woodstock, NH
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| Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:12 am Post subject: Re: starter hesitates on first try, fine on second |
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I just want to chime in - and say it is most definitely not the ignition switch. I believe if that was bad - you get nothing when you turn the key.
At least that is the symptom I had with mine.
For a few weeks when I'd turn the key - nothing but dash lights coming on. If I wiggled key it would sometimes start. Then one day no matter what it would do nothing. I changed ignition switch, and now it starts right up.
The fact that the engine tries to turn - make me think it is NOT the ignition switch.
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Lincoln, MA
'86 Triple Knob Syncro w/EJ22
'78 Westy
'69 Single Cab
'65 Kombi - EZ-Camper |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22631
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:25 am Post subject: Re: starter hesitates on first try, fine on second |
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It is simple to diagnosis the ignition switch by applying 12V to the terminal 50 on the starter direct from the battery.
Car out of gear, and chocked, or an assistant in driver seat with brake pedal firmly depressed and clutch in on a manual transmission.
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floodwood
Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2017
Posts: 163
Location: Cambridge, MA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:22 pm Post subject: Re: starter hesitates on first try, fine on second |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| floodwood wrote: |
| Both atomatom and I both have the high torque diesel starters. Shouldn’t the higher torque of these starters compensate for any compression related timing issues if they are designed for much higher torque diesel applications? |
If the timing is too far advanced the starter will have to fight not only the compression but the full pressure of the burning mixture. That can bring a fairly powerful starter to a halt. |
This can of course be caused by the timing being set incorrectly, but it can also be caused by the mechanical advance being gummed up or damaged which keeps the advance from dropping to the proper timing at idle. Since these distributors were originally designed to be lubricated every ten thousand miles or so when the ignition points were replaced, but now typically go many tens of thousands of miles without being lubricated because Hall units seldom must be touched, the advance units are likely both worn and gummed up and give less than stellar performance. |
Thanks for this. What is the best way to clean and test my distributor / hall sensor for this issue? I will be checking /adjusting my timing once I am able to get my hands on a timing gun. |
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4Gears4Tires
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2018
Posts: 3004
Location: MD
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| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:58 am Post subject: Re: starter hesitates on first try, fine on second |
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Get an adjustable timing gun, it's well worth the money. You dial in the advance on the gun and don't need to worry about anything else. Making a measurement 2" over to calculate 35 degrees or whatever... yeah, leave that to people who have been doing that for 30 years.
I bought a basic timing gun and I could never really trust my measurements/marks. I bought this timing gun and I was done in 5 minutes. Being able to read the rpms and timing at the same time? Easy.
https://smile.amazon.com/INNOVA-5568-Pro-Timing-Li...B08BL2SVCS
This one has less features, but at least you dial in the advance on the gun.
https://smile.amazon.com/Innova-3555-Advance-Timin...B000EVU8J8
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atomatom
Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2012
Posts: 1867
Location: in an 84 Westy or Bowen Island, BC
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| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:03 am Post subject: Re: starter hesitates on first try, fine on second |
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| Quote: |
| Thanks for this. What is the best way to clean and test my distributor / hall sensor for this issue? I will be checking /adjusting my timing once I am able to get my hands on a timing gun. |
i'm not sure i would want to take it apart, at least not without a lot of research. also, be aware that removing the distributor is somewhat risky operation as there are washers on the bottom of the shaft which are prone to drop off as you remove it.
i wonder how many people know to put a drop of oil on the little pad to lubricate the distributor. i had forgotten about this, but i know i did do that once upon a time. and a little search and here are some more answers; tldr; some 3-in-1/light oil is all. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=394747
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atomatom
Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2012
Posts: 1867
Location: in an 84 Westy or Bowen Island, BC
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| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:33 am Post subject: Re: starter hesitates on first try, fine on second |
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also, on adjusting timing. my timing was set at ~3000 rpm with a light (no tach so my best guess). this means the advance is optimised for a typical engine speed on the road, not at idle. what i think wildthings is pointing out is that a 40 year old distributor might not be firing as accurately as a brand new one. when new, it was possible to set the timing when cold / the engine off (when a cylinder is at TDC), but with a worn/gunked/etc distributor (and the rest of the engine), doing it while running and a light gives you better power/etc when running rather than starting. my van has pretty decent power (for a 40 year old 1.9 anyway).
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50331
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| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:19 am Post subject: Re: starter hesitates on first try, fine on second |
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| floodwood wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| floodwood wrote: |
| Both atomatom and I both have the high torque diesel starters. Shouldn’t the higher torque of these starters compensate for any compression related timing issues if they are designed for much higher torque diesel applications? |
If the timing is too far advanced the starter will have to fight not only the compression but the full pressure of the burning mixture. That can bring a fairly powerful starter to a halt. |
This can of course be caused by the timing being set incorrectly, but it can also be caused by the mechanical advance being gummed up or damaged which keeps the advance from dropping to the proper timing at idle. Since these distributors were originally designed to be lubricated every ten thousand miles or so when the ignition points were replaced, but now typically go many tens of thousands of miles without being lubricated because Hall units seldom must be touched, the advance units are likely both worn and gummed up and give less than stellar performance. |
Thanks for this. What is the best way to clean and test my distributor / hall sensor for this issue? I will be checking /adjusting my timing once I am able to get my hands on a timing gun. |
The felt under the rotor needs to be lubed with a few drops of light motor oil every 10K miles, while the entire distributor needs to be disassembled, cleaned, and relube every decade or so, this is dependent on both mileage and where the vehicle is garaged and driven. The thrust washers on the shaft may well need replacing as they tend to fail and disappear with mileage, and the retard function on the vacuum can (assuming your distributor came with one) likely failed a decade or more ago. |
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floodwood
Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2017
Posts: 163
Location: Cambridge, MA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:40 pm Post subject: Re: starter hesitates on first try, fine on second |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| floodwood wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| floodwood wrote: |
| Both atomatom and I both have the high torque diesel starters. Shouldn’t the higher torque of these starters compensate for any compression related timing issues if they are designed for much higher torque diesel applications? |
If the timing is too far advanced the starter will have to fight not only the compression but the full pressure of the burning mixture. That can bring a fairly powerful starter to a halt. |
This can of course be caused by the timing being set incorrectly, but it can also be caused by the mechanical advance being gummed up or damaged which keeps the advance from dropping to the proper timing at idle. Since these distributors were originally designed to be lubricated every ten thousand miles or so when the ignition points were replaced, but now typically go many tens of thousands of miles without being lubricated because Hall units seldom must be touched, the advance units are likely both worn and gummed up and give less than stellar performance. |
Thanks for this. What is the best way to clean and test my distributor / hall sensor for this issue? I will be checking /adjusting my timing once I am able to get my hands on a timing gun. |
The felt under the rotor needs to be lubed with a few drops of light motor oil every 10K miles, while the entire distributor needs to be disassembled, cleaned, and relube every decade or so, this is dependent on both mileage and where the vehicle is garaged and driven. The thrust washers on the shaft may well need replacing as they tend to fail and disappear with mileage, and the retard function on the vacuum can (assuming your distributor came with one) likely failed a decade or more ago. |
I can't speak for atomatom's 1.9L '84, but my 2.1L '91 does not have a vacuum advance. Would it be worth my time to just buy a new dizzy? Other than a new cap and rotor last year I have no idea about its history over the past 30 years? |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50331
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| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:06 pm Post subject: Re: starter hesitates on first try, fine on second |
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| floodwood wrote: |
I can't speak for atomatom's 1.9L '84, but my 2.1L '91 does not have a vacuum advance. Would it be worth my time to just buy a new dizzy? Other than a new cap and rotor last year I have no idea about its history over the past 30 years? |
The 1.9L Digijet and the 2.1L Digifant distributors are two different animals. The 2.1L distributor has no advance elements, vacuum or mechanical, and thus they don't need periodic lubrication. The 2.1L dizzy does use thrust washers on the shaft that can and will fail with time. The trust washer are easy enough to replace, but it is hard to find a source of new ones. |
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atomatom
Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2012
Posts: 1867
Location: in an 84 Westy or Bowen Island, BC
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:30 am Post subject: Re: starter hesitates on first try, fine on second |
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ok, i finally checked my timing. it was pretty much dead on 2" past TDC, as per the tencent recipe. the 2" timing paint marks from when i reassembled my engine were still there.
as an experiment, i reduced the advance a bit, to perhaps 1.5". i'm yet to go for a drive (roads have been pretty terrible here for the past two weeks). i don't know if i'll leave it like that, but i'm curious to see how it starts (battery was low yesterday, so not a good test). it idled and revved fine at 1.5".
about a month ago, i did my first drive up the ski hill. van did not seem to have as much power as before. i'm wondering if my summer incident (driving across an island with an air intake hose off) caused some build up or damage. :/ i could give it a dose of sea foam or similar.
i also realise that while advising others to check and replace vacuum hoses, i have not done this same. in the past, i have trimmed the cracked ends from a few hoses, but some are likely ~40 years old. and the other thought is perhaps the starter is just crusted up. ~5 years seems like a short life.
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atomatom
Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2012
Posts: 1867
Location: in an 84 Westy or Bowen Island, BC
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:33 am Post subject: Re: starter hesitates on first try, fine on second |
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| Abscate wrote: |
If you haven’t serviced the starter in 5 years or more, take it to a rebuild shop and have it reworked for $100
Much better than the Bosch crap of today
Or keep driving it , score the commutator making it useless , and then start the cheap crap parts cycle whine thread on yet another car |
my starter is a rebuilt bosch. but yeah, i take your point. this is really the simplest answer.
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50331
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:43 am Post subject: Re: starter hesitates on first try, fine on second |
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| The Tencentlife instructions for a Digijet are not the best. You want to set your timing to 28° BTDC @ 3800+ rpms, with the hoses off and plugged, and the Digital Idle Stabilizer bypassed. If the retard can will not hold vacuum don't hook it back up once you have the timing set but plug the hose coming to it from the throttle body. If the advance side of the can doesn't hold vacuum or otherwise work you need a replacement can. |
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atomatom
Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2012
Posts: 1867
Location: in an 84 Westy or Bowen Island, BC
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:57 am Post subject: Re: starter hesitates on first try, fine on second |
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thanks wildthings. i might give the other timing approach a try. the thing is, i think the timing was pretty good before. my van had decent power since i set it (in 2014 i think) after my rebuild.
i suspect something has given up (or been killed). if not the starter, maybe it is the vacuum can (i presume you mean the one attached to the distributor). i do have another on my spare engine that i could try - i could even swap the whole distributor over...
i'd like to try to pinpoint the failure before throwing too much time and parts at it. is there any way to test the vacuum can? based on the shape, i presume it works likes a pressure regulator. replacing it seems to be not-so-easy. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8434751#8434751
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50331
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:36 pm Post subject: Re: starter hesitates on first try, fine on second |
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| You can put a short hose onto each nipple in turn and suck hard on the hose, or use a vacuum pump to do the sucking for you. The cans are supposed to hold vacuum, but the retard can very likely will not do so. With the cap off the distributor you should be able to see the breaker plate moving as vacuum is applied to each nipple on the can. One of the reasons for setting the timing at full mechanical advance, as suggested, is that it works better than the book method when the various parts of the distributor are worn or no longer fully functional. |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9600
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:40 pm Post subject: Re: starter hesitates on first try, fine on second |
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| TomInAlaska wrote: |
| Start with the basics:Have you added an auxiliary ground strap/cable from the starter mounting bolt to the body yet? |
| DuncanS wrote: |
| and put a ground strap directly to the starter. |
| atomatom wrote: |
| it really feel like it something like compression. constipated on first turn. i'll check the timing. |
Perhaps the 40-years old Ground path cannot supply the necessary current?
And the e-brake cables are all corroded too?
| atomatom wrote: |
| yeah, i am aware of the fact that you can burn out electric motors if you run current and they don't spin. when it hesitates to start, i stop turning the ignition. |
Yes, if a motor is stalled due to to an immovable load something will get hot and could burn out.
But if the motor is stalled because the ground path has several series connections
that have not been cleaned and verified in 40 years,
then stalling won't damage the starter
because there is no current to heat stuff up.
| floodwood wrote: |
| Both atomatom and I both have the high torque diesel starters. Shouldn’t the higher torque of these starters compensate for any compression related timing issues if they are designed for much higher torque diesel applications? |
Absolutely. The starter needs a current supply to output the torque.
If either the positive or the negative are incapable of supplying the necessary current,
it won't output the torque. Nor the high-torque.
It could put out more than the previous starter if you have recently cleaned a few of the (many) connections.
| atomatom wrote: |
| Abscate wrote: |
If you haven’t serviced the starter in 5 years or more, take it to a rebuild shop and have it reworked for $100
Much better than the Bosch crap of today
Or keep driving it , score the commutator making it useless , and then start the cheap crap parts cycle whine thread on yet another car |
my starter is a rebuilt bosch. but yeah, i take your point. this is really the simplest answer. |
Not the simplest answer.
After all these years, doesn't anyone know what is done wrong in these rebuilt Bosch starters?
A starter is a VERY simple machine.
SOMEONE should know what goes wrong, and how to fix it.
Especially a starter-rebuilder. It's a simple machine.
Crickets chirping?
=======================
OK that said, let me re-iterate that a starter is a simple, but HIGH CURRENT machine.
If either the positive or the negative paths are compromised, it cannot get the current it needs.
You cannot verify current capacity with continuity nor resistance measurement.
The failure is in the high current condition.
Do you have a multimeter that can measure 80 amps? (not likely).
Need to ADD a new, direct ground from the starter bolt to the chassis.
DELETE the forward transaxle strap that uses the decades old groundpath across multiple dissimilar materials of the transaxle.
If you add this new starter ground, you have reduced the groundpath to two connections, that you can easily clean.
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'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
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Last edited by Sodo on Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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atomatom
Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2012
Posts: 1867
Location: in an 84 Westy or Bowen Island, BC
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:51 pm Post subject: Re: starter hesitates on first try, fine on second |
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good points sodo. and all that wiring on the starter is exposed to any splashes/salted road/dust/etc. heck, my previous starter was fried from a poor starter relay install because it got wet (and the starter engaged during a heavy rain storm on a prairie highway).
i will double check the wiring and connectors for corrosion, test the resistance on the cables, and so on. perhaps i'll apply some of that liquid electric tape
in the process of fixing a slipping clutch the two years i noticed that the clutch lever was incredibly stiff. i removed it, lubed it, etc in the process, but it did make me thing about how these areas get splashed with so much road crap.
also, surely there is a t-shirt/tattoo with the vw symbol and 'clean the grounds' (and 'replace the fuel lines') on it.
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Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10365
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 3:41 pm Post subject: Re: starter hesitates on first try, fine on second |
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I scanned replies so hope I'm not repeating what's been said but....
My newer medium miles non stock starter would "click", no turn, then work. Cause: slightly loose nut at B+ post on starter. Caveat: that post has at least one more wire vs stock. Even so, the issue was the nut.
As per DucanS' post, my "click" finally manifested at night on a slight uphill in a bus stop pull out (mail box is there). After doing basic checks, mega cussing, and a failed backwards bump start attempt, I managed to push it slightly uphill far enough to bump start it nose first down a nearby hill. Not good times, glad for the fog light "back up" lights I'd installed.
In hindsight, the remote starter switch doing nothing, was revealing. It was connected to B+ at alternator. The slightly loose connection at starter B+ prohibited proper flow to alternator B+.
Neil.
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