Author |
Message |
spencerfvee Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004 Posts: 3071
|
Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 3:04 pm Post subject: Re: I hate my kadrons :( recommendations?? |
|
|
Alstrup wrote: |
I kinda disagree on the 009 thing, but we all work out of slightly different experiences.
Wrt the hands on thing I totally agree. This is also why I ask so many questions sort of to get a baseline. |
al........................................................................................alstrup you know how it is. guys bring motors in for you to work on . and you find things that are wrong . over the years. i have found intake manifolds that leaked and sucked air because guys used the steel .gaskets under the manifolds and the intake manifolds needed refaced .a lot of the time . i found gaskets that were blown out under the carbs from back fire . a lot of the carbs needed a bigger pump shot from the acc pump . that can be done on Kadron carbs .for a bigger pump shot and water in the gas tanks bad gas . alstup i am sure you have stories about motors that you have worked on over the years . spencerfvee |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7182 Location: Videbaek Denmark
|
Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 3:41 pm Post subject: Re: I hate my kadrons :( recommendations?? |
|
|
Ohhyearh ! but you are correct with all of your points here.
BUT. be calm. You/we are not the only community that has problems sometimes. For instance, 6 or 7 years ago I was to dial in a newly rebuilt Lotus Esprit turbo with 1200 km on the clock. It didnt run right and it was down on power. I got the go from the owner as it should be a perfect engine. On the next full power sweep attempt it seized. It later turned out that the shop who did the rebuild bored the cylinders too tight, because they wanted to get rid of the piston rattle in these engines. cost them a full teardown, rebore and 4 new pistons.This time done by us. About the same time we got a 1974 Aston Martin V8 in. The owner had had it in 3 shops before us, but none of them could make it run even close to right. The car had other issues, so it was in the shop for a week or so. with the engine, I basicly just took everything external off, cleaned it, put the right parts in, preadjusted the carbs (4 DCNF 40 mm) installed it all with new gaskets, spent an hour or so fiddling with the linkage so it was spot on, and it started and idled in the first attempt. 2 hours later it poured like a kitten everywhere, but it sadly had been running like crap for so long that it lacked 30 hp. But the owner was happy because now he could actually drive his nice vintage car.
Another serius - almost fraud, well, no, it was fraud, was a 1958 Jaguar D Le Mans. It was rebuilt another place. Came to us due to lack of power. Dependant on year they have 250 - 280 hp. This one barely broke the 170 mark. Upon disassembly we discovered that the imbessiles of a motorshop had installed normal street Mk1 parts inside the engine, but charged the custmer for Le mans parts. Naturally they met in court afterwards.
Of some more recent we had a Ferrari 512BB genII in last year, also "trimmed" by another shop. It had a terrible flat spotin the 1800 -2000 rpm area. Thats 47-52 mph in 5th gear, so not pleasant to drive, at all. WOT was ok. It took a colleague and me 2 days to get it right. After that sesion you could feather drive it from 1300 rpm in fifth gear no problem, or floor it, your choice.
Of the easier ones was a 1974 (I think) Maserati 4700 that the owner had recently performed a full service on. After the service the engine ran like crap, and he could not figure out why. After a little investigation it turned out that the Flaps guy had done the classic wrt plugs, like - ohh these have the same heat range, should be fine for such an old piece of junk" But, it was not. 8 new plugs of the right kind plus a fine tune of the (dual points) distributor and it ran well again.
On the fun side we had a 1932 Alvis 20 Speed in not long ago that needed new rod bearings (They are to be changed every 10000 miles) This old car runs like a champ and is very well looked after.
Ohh, that´s not really ACVW oriented. Sorry. But yes, it happens often. _________________ https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
hsosa1 Samba Member
Joined: January 17, 2005 Posts: 1896 Location: Fontana
|
Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 6:36 pm Post subject: Re: I hate my kadrons :( recommendations?? |
|
|
from what I gather I read the first sentence im over kads. since you had them for several years why not go with a set empi 40s. good price for the entire setup you can t beat it . or even go wit the 44s and jet them down. I think empi has solved most of the issues on their china carbs. I run empi ICTS no issues. even eBay has those china 40s . _________________ Just Cruzin Sur Califas VW Car Club est♤1998 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
QRP Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2008 Posts: 1703 Location: NORTH HOLLYWOOD,CA
|
Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 9:56 pm Post subject: Re: I hate my kadrons :( recommendations?? |
|
|
In my humble opinion . . . Kadrons when they first came out were a nice upgrade to put on a stock 1500 or 1600, roughly $150.00 bucks for the whole setup.
But anything above a stock motor "especially with a cam upgrade" you might as well get some real carbs, you'll be happier in the long run.
But thats just me. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
esde Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2007 Posts: 5927 Location: central rust belt
|
Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:29 am Post subject: Re: I hate my kadrons :( recommendations?? |
|
|
Alstrup wrote: |
Esde, you can very well be correct. That was part of the reason to my combo comment earlier. But if you keep the combo´s - shall we call them reasonable, Kadrons can run as smooth as a set of Dellorto´s, and you can still make good power with them. |
Alstrup, no doubt you are right. But out of personal experience, here's my logic.
Kadrons are not cheap any more, and they're almost all worn out. By the time you have them bushed, and upgrade the linkage you're way over what I want to spend on Kads. And when they run well, they run well, The simplicity is well matched to the VW engine. But once you experience an engine that actually idles smoothly on all 4 cylinders? Sorry but I'm not going back to the lumpy 2-3-4 cylinder idle. If you have a single port engine well hey, maybe Kads are as good as it gets.
And yes, the Kads can produce decent power. My 1835 made almost 95hp on the dyno at Atco in the 90's with Kads.
SD _________________ modok wrote:
Bent cranks are silent but gather no moss. I mean, ah, something like that. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
evanfrucht Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2016 Posts: 2180 Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
|
Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:37 am Post subject: Re: I hate my kadrons :( recommendations?? |
|
|
Have mcdragracer rebuild your Dells. Get a new linkage. Then maybe work toward doing some of the other changes mentioned if that doesn't completely blow your socks off
Tell us more about the heads you have. _________________ 1967 Bug ( the daily rod )
1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder ) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
vwroamer Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2009 Posts: 95 Location: South Lake Tahoe CA
|
Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2021 12:21 pm Post subject: Re: I hate my kadrons :( recommendations?? |
|
|
Last edited by vwroamer on Sat Aug 21, 2021 12:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
vwroamer Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2009 Posts: 95 Location: South Lake Tahoe CA
|
Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2021 12:24 pm Post subject: Re: I hate my kadrons :( recommendations?? |
|
|
esde wrote: |
Alstrup wrote: |
Esde, you can very well be correct. That was part of the reason to my combo comment earlier. But if you keep the combo´s - shall we call them reasonable, Kadrons can run as smooth as a set of Dellorto´s, and you can still make good power with them. |
Alstrup, no doubt you are right. But out of personal experience, here's my logic.
Kadrons are not cheap any more, and they're almost all worn out. By the time you have them bushed, and upgrade the linkage you're way over what I want to spend on Kads. And when they run well, they run well, The simplicity is well matched to the VW engine. But once you experience an engine that actually idles smoothly on all 4 cylinders? Sorry but I'm not going back to the lumpy 2-3-4 cylinder idle. If you have a single port engine well hey, maybe Kads are as good as it gets.
And yes, the Kads can produce decent power. My 1835 made almost 95hp on the dyno at Atco in the 90's with Kads.
SD |
This is really the pinnacle of my argument, should I keep spending money on these or cut my losses and go with a different carburetor. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7182 Location: Videbaek Denmark
|
Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:37 am Post subject: Re: I hate my kadrons :( recommendations?? |
|
|
That is the question.
But first you need to find out if it really IS a carb issue and not something further down the system. (We also still need the cylinder head type.) IF the carbs are in sync and all that, but still acts up it could be a "simple" thing such as leaking intake valves. If that is the case, no carb swap will remedy the problem. - Not syaing it is that, I am just throwing it in.
If it is a carb sync/adjustment/trimming thing it doesnst get easier with a set of dual dual carbs. your advantage may be, that more people in your neck of the hood are used to wotk with them, so it may be easier to get help.
Also, jetting a set of carbs, no matter the type, is NOT something you just do in 20 minutes. It can take several jet swops before you fing the right combination, - which is why one of your first investments should be buying an 02 sensor kit and get used to working with it, because once you get the hang of how it works it will save you lots of time, and answer a question or two you encounter down the road. _________________ https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12632 Location: Western Canada
|
Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2021 5:39 am Post subject: Re: I hate my kadrons :( recommendations?? |
|
|
Alstrup is dead right. In most cases the first thing to catch blame when an engine doesn't run right is the carb.
A wide band should be the first investment, I have zero regrets spending the money for one. In fact after this last mostly stock single port engine rebuild with all stock cam, carb and distributor (it's factory correct right?) I discovered there is room for improvement on any engine. I am going to be using it on everything I own. It's just as important as a timing light.
The best part is you can see it at a glance, no pulling hot plugs and squinting at the insulators trying to see if the color is right. No multiple runs at different loads to check the throttle range. One run and it's all right there!
The time and money I could have save if I would have had one 40 years ago... _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
spencerfvee Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004 Posts: 3071
|
Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2021 8:46 am Post subject: Re: I hate my kadrons :( recommendations?? |
|
|
Alstrup wrote: |
That is the question.
But first you need to find out if it really IS a carb issue and not something further down the system. (We also still need the cylinder head type.) IF the carbs are in sync and all that, but still acts up it could be a "simple" thing such as leaking intake valves. If that is the case, no carb swap will remedy the problem. - Not syaing it is that, I am just throwing it in.
If it is a carb sync/adjustment/trimming thing it doesnst get easier with a set of dual dual carbs. your advantage may be, that more people in your neck of the hood are used to wotk with them, so it may be easier to get help.
Also, jetting a set of carbs, no matter the type, is NOT something you just do in 20 minutes. It can take several jet swops before you fing the right combination, - which is why one of your first investments should be buying an 02 sensor kit and get used to working with it, because once you get the hang of how it works it will save you lots of time, and answer a question or two you encounter down the road. |
............................................................................................................................................. i hope no one takes this the wrong way. alstrup . you and a lot of other guys on this forum . have gave great info . i ask you this alstrup has this org. poster done any thing you said to fix his carbs ?? it seems to me he only hears what he wants to hear. and that is should he stop spending money on the kadrons . in this world now a days people are spoiled by the new cars. all you have to do is turn the key and ithe motor runs. lights and bells tell you what to do . lights come on . and tell you whats wrong. with your motor. it tells you when to change the oil . .vw air cooled motors are old school . all you have is a oil light and alt. or gen. light lol lol . back in the 1960s every one did there own tune ups .we were all way doing some thing on the motors to keep them running. in the winter you some times had to jump your car to get it started and you had to warm the motor up so you could drive it down the road . alstrup your English is better than my English so i am sure he under stands what you told him to do to fix his carbs and you are not from the USA . there comes a time alstrup when you have said every thing you can say on how to fix his carbs and others on this forum on how to fix his carbs . he must make up his mind if hes going to fix the kadrons or if hes not going to fix his kadrons . its as simple as that . as my grand pa all ways said shit or get off the pot. lol i wish him the best spencerfvee |
|
Back to top |
|
|
vwroamer Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2009 Posts: 95 Location: South Lake Tahoe CA
|
Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:50 am Post subject: Re: I hate my kadrons :( recommendations?? |
|
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
vwroamer Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2009 Posts: 95 Location: South Lake Tahoe CA
|
Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:50 am Post subject: Re: I hate my kadrons :( recommendations?? |
|
|
Ok so I have been watching this thread,
This is what I've done so far.
Checked resistance on coil. 3 ohms across 15 and 1. Ok.
Checked resistance from 4 to 15 or 1. 8,500 ohms. Seems to be ok.
Note I did not check this when the coil was hot. I checked it first thing in the morning. Maybe I should go drive it and get the engine running warm and see if it has different readings when hot?
I replaced the distributor with a spare that I had w/ mechanical points. I set the points and really no changes in drivability. So I put the 034 back in with the electronic points and timed.
I wonder if I can advance more like 36 degrees all in being at elevation?
I am shopping around for linkage. My linkage is trash. It's pulling one carb fully open at full throttle, but not the other, but at idle position it's fine. So what do you guys think about the Vintage speed kadron linkage?
I popped the valve cover off, it says " 041. 101. 375. 2 " And a large printed " 81 " also a "2BR"
I checked all the valves while i was in there, all within spec.
And im strongly considering the vintage speed cabin quiet exhaust as well. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7182 Location: Videbaek Denmark
|
Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2021 7:40 am Post subject: Re: I hate my kadrons :( recommendations?? |
|
|
OK.
As far as my memory goes those heads must be the older version of the 041´s with ½" plug threads and 39*32 mm valves. - Somebody correct me if I´m wrong.
On a Kadron fed engine that is OK.
From the sound of it I am pretty sure that your current linkage is ½ of your problems. The other half is jetting and trimming.
VS versus CSP. Its the same system basicly. The VS has a quick release system. But you should hopefully not need to take the carbs off that often once it is dialed in. So IMHO it is an unnessessary feature.
Wrt ignition timing. That ultimately hangs together with the engine vacum and your carb jetting, but from a starting point you can set it at 14 degrees idle and 30 WOT which should give you 37-40 at full vacum. - Yes, you need a lot of initial timing, especially with so low static compression and altitude at the same time. So the easy way is to bend the limiting tabs inward by something like 2 mm maybe even a little more. This may give you full advance a little too soon, but you can deal with that later.
While you are waiting on the linkage you can prepare the manifolds. I wrote about this in another thread recently, but i can post some pics here too for you to get the idea.
The engine needs this large plenum to handle the reversion from the intake pulses. The balance tube has an impact on that too, but I must admit that I have never had that much luck with that. I hardly ever use it. BUT, I don´t use Engle cams that much either, and I - have - heard of people that had good luck with using a balance tube with exactly that cam. So maybe worth a shot or two to play with that. Just remember, the tubing should be solid most of the way, otherwise the hose, if you use that, can pulse which has a large influence on how the engine runs.
Also, as I wrote earlier, check that the manifolds line up with the intake ports. They often don´t.
A VS cabin quiet muffler is a good solution for such a set up. - Get the SS143 version. It works well. _________________ https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Lo Cash John Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2004 Posts: 2246 Location: Jacksonville, FL
|
Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2021 6:22 pm Post subject: Re: I hate my kadrons :( recommendations?? |
|
|
I think buying used Kads are ok carbs for guys on a budget AND they can do all the work needed themselves. Once you have to start paying someone to rebuild, rebush, jet, sync, etc you’re no longer getting the best bang for your buck. In that case buy some Dellortos or EMPI Series-D (dell clones) carbs.
Just to show it CAN be done, I built a blow through Kad 1600. It took a lot of figuring out and non-traditional Kad tuning but it now drives as good as a stock 1600 but stick your foot in it and keep it there and it’ll haul ass.
_________________ www.LoCashRacing.org
More brains than bucks...Believe it or not!!
If you actually drive your VW, you need www.AirMapp.com
My boss told me I need to work on my mutli-tasking. So now when I use the bathroom at work I surf The Samba on my iPhone. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
vwroamer Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2009 Posts: 95 Location: South Lake Tahoe CA
|
Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:13 pm Post subject: Re: I hate my kadrons :( recommendations?? |
|
|
Hey guys, sorry, life got in the way of my tinkering. I finally got some time to mess with the bus starting tomorrow.
I looked at the stock linkage and opened it at 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 and full. It's totally off. I adjusted the linkage per KS, and even tried it Aj's way, and its on point at idle, but once the linkage is moved throughout the throttle band, it is quite obvious that it is out of sync.
I ordered the CSP linkage, I will install it tomorrow after work, resync, tune, etc., and see what that does for me with drivability.
I was getting some horrible stumbling symptoms when cruising at 30 mph through town, also lots of flat spots when going to stab the gas to accelerate.
I will report back, hoping this will end all these drivability issues. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Lingwendil Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009 Posts: 3987 Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
|
Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:17 am Post subject: Re: I hate my kadrons :( recommendations?? |
|
|
Yeah, the CSP stuff is great. Folks have no end of sorrows with these carbs with most of the available linkage, but installed correctly the CSP is great. If you put it in correctly the rods are very easy to adjust to fine tune the sync.
One thing to keep in mind during setup is that you need to make sure that the carbs are as parallel as you can possibly get them. If they aren't nearly perfect you may have to loosen the mounting bolts on one, and rotate it this way or that to get them equal at idle and full throttle. This is a very important but easily overlooked step. _________________ 73 super beetle thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=649622 Back on the Road!
Modify your Kadrons for SVDA http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8115884#8115884
Cast iron VJU4BR8 SVDA reference thread- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
Need replacement filters for original Kadron aircleaners? WIX #42087 is a perfect fit, as is Napa Gold #2087! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7182 Location: Videbaek Denmark
|
Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:43 am Post subject: Re: I hate my kadrons :( recommendations?? |
|
|
As for cams being cams whatever the brand. Here is a little fuel to that discussion.
2 almost identical 1914´s.
First one w. dual 40Dells. W110 cam. TT 1½" sidewinder with 2 inline mufflers
Second with Chinese 40 IDF. Web 163, 1½" A1 sidewinder.
_________________ https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Jason37 Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2004 Posts: 1027
|
Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:15 am Post subject: Re: I hate my kadrons :( recommendations?? |
|
|
Alstrup wrote: |
As for cams being cams whatever the brand. Here is a little fuel to that discussion.
2 almost identical 1914´s.
First one w. dual 40Dells. W110 cam. TT 1½" sidewinder with 2 inline mufflers
Second with Chinese 40 IDF. Web 163, 1½" A1 sidewinder.
|
Wow!! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7182 Location: Videbaek Denmark
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
|