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My 412 these days..
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ClassicCamper
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 6:00 am    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Hi Bill, Good to hear from you as well. I am also on the hunt for the impact strips.

I know the feeling about having to walk away from the car for a little. That's exactly what happened here. I am once again on the hunt and will keep you in mind during my search.

Thanks for checking in.

Ron
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1973 412 Wagon
1976 Westy
1978 SB Vert
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Pepperbilly
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 11:26 am    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Ron,

I will keep you posted on a contact I have about the impact strips...still working on it. The problem with the 412 bumpers is at the front..... the front was a 411/412 part only and is longer and curved differently than anything else. The rear is the same as a late type 3 and KG in length with some minor end cut differences. The rear impact strip should be the same...only on the front they are too short. My strips laid out flat are as follows: FRONT 89 1/4" REAR 78 1/2" in length. I will know more hopefully next week.

Bill
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ClassicCamper
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 11:33 am    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Exciting to hear you have a lead on these. Thanks for keeping me posted.

- Ron
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1978 SB Vert
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Pepperbilly
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:29 am    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Ron,
Have not received my impact strips yet…been a problem with the DHL and USPS delivery. Will certainly let you know about the product when it arrives.

Bill


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:37 am    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

I too will be looking for the impact strips on the bumper. Just wondering if one could take two strips for the front and splice them and then hide the splice under one of the overriders. Anyone know if that is even a possibility.

Walter
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:48 am    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Walter,
I thought about doing the exact same thing because I was also going to use the bumper guards, which is the way the car came (original VWoA guards). I believe if you attach the strips with the proper screws from behind, maybe a couple more in the vicinity of the guard you would be good to go. How would anyone know because the splice would be concealed.

Bill
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hulken
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:43 am    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

NurseryWalt wrote:
I too will be looking for the impact strips on the bumper. Just wondering if one could take two strips for the front and splice them and then hide the splice under one of the overriders. Anyone know if that is even a possibility.

Walter


Loctite has a glue for rubber that can be used (406) to glue two pieces together. I made a jig to hold the 2 pieces of impact rubber squired up to each other, and the joint is looking real good. You could also weld two pieces of the inner steel bands to make it longer.

Hiding the splice would make it perfect.
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ClassicCamper
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:46 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Hi VW Friends, I had a nice 412 journey tonight, but trying to solve for two small items. The good news though is that i’ve put 900+ miles on it since I rewired the car and put in the new dash. (I may have a few T4 dashes coming available this week)

Moving on…..

Issue I

1)At times, it almost sounds like popcorn is being popped inside the intake air distributor box. Important note: this sound is different from a predetonation/pinging. Futher, the sound does not increase under load and doesn’t have any rhyme or reason as to when the sound appears. Also, the sound does not impact engine performance.

Issue II

2) At cruising speed past 60 MPH, The car will surge occasionally. For example, the car will lose 75-175 RPMs if the gas pedal is kept in one position. If you move the pedal around, it disappears. This seems more of an annoyance, if it doesnt hurt the car, I‘m okay with it.

**The most important thing to fix is the popcorn popping sound in the intake manifold runners. Although it does not at all impact the car‘s performance, I‘m still hesitant to drive this car long distances.

Here’s what I’ve done done so far:

1) Rebuilt fuel pump (original 3 port type). Runs beautifully. The only thing I did not reinstall is the round disc that plumbs in by the tank, fuel pump, and fuel filter. Would omitting this piece cause any of the problems I‘m experiencing in either Issue 1 or Issue 2?? It appears to be some type of round dampner. (About 2.5-3“ in diameter)

2) Replaced ALL fuel and air hoses with correct type. (High pressure for FI, lower pressures for smalll vacuum hoses, etc.)

3) Installed a new FI wiring loom to all critical components, installed 4 yellow D-Jet 1.7 Injectors

4) Rebuilt original Pressure Sensor that belonged to this car. Note: I’m sure vacuum signature has changed over 70k miles, but the engine has been kept clean as possible. Plus the new FI harness, vacuum and fuel hoses.

5) Valves Adjusted
6) Timing
7) Points
8.) Trigger points adjusted/cleaned per Samba thread
9) New plugs with 2,800 miles
10) Cap, rotor, condensor, PVC valve, oil change, oil filter

Replaced oil dipstick and filler bellows to ensure no vacuum leak.

11) Installed second battery under the passenger seat to prevent ‘robbing’ voltage from the fuel injection system, especially the fuel pump. Items that run on isolated 2nd battery: Gas Heater, Fog Lights, A/C, radio, and heated seats.

P.S. I did turn the grey knob on the ECU and it gave me a beautiful idle. Is that all the knob controls… idle mix? Or, could my adjustment impact one or both of my issues?

Finally and on a lighter note, I took her out on a nice ride this evening, so I figured I share the pics with my VW posse:



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1973 412 Wagon
1976 Westy
1978 SB Vert


Last edited by ClassicCamper on Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:58 pm; edited 19 times in total
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Pepperbilly
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:28 am    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Hey Ron,

First of all that is just one of my favorite colors for the wagon. Your 412 is beautiful!

For your running issues it could be many things. Let me toss a few things at you. For starters make sure you have the correct spark plugs installed. Double check that, these engines are very sensitive to this. Also, are you running the correct domed 1700 pistons and cylinder set? That is important because you have the stock injection. The popcorn sound sure sounds like pre ignition/detonation.

The surging/flat spot throttle response could be the throttle switch. They need to be clean and adjusted. Is it the original? Could be the electronic circuit board is worn in places, sending an open signal at times. Very common!

The grey knob on top of the computer is for mixture adjustment.. You really need an exhaust analyzer to set the tail pipe emissions correctly when adjusting.

The round disc by the fuel pump is important. It dampens and smooths out the fuel flow from the pump. You need it I am sure.

Lastly, did you replace your fuel injectors? If so, where did you get them and who made them? I probably will have to replace mine but have not had them tested yet.

This is my 2 cents worth. Let me know how it goes. I am sure Ray will chime in.

Bill
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ClassicCamper
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:10 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Bill,

Thanks for your feedback, this is very helpful! I know I have that damper disc somewhere, so I’ll add it back to the fuel system. Perhaps that is what causes the car to surge at times.

As to the throttle body switch, the circuit board is new and it was carefully adjusted, so I’m pretty sure that is in good shape. The injectors were purchased from a Porsche specialist and I’m confident they are correct.

You mentioned spark plugs, that is a good question - I don’t remember what type they are; do you have a good recommendation for plugs (and its gap)? As to the pistons, they are domed.


Again, thanks for the tips, I look forward to your feedback and I’ll let you know how I make out.

Ron
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:23 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

ClassicCamper wrote:
I know I have that damper disc somewhere, so I’ll add it back to the fuel system.


If not, I think it's the same as for the Type 3, so you could search those classifies and sellers.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:13 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Ron,

If the throttle body is suspect you can check it with an ohm meter. Easier to do with it removed.

This is my original manual with the specs page. You will have to cross reference the spark plugs to the newer ones on the market.

Bill

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:38 am    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Pepperbilly wrote:
Hey Ron,

First of all that is just one of my favorite colors for the wagon. Your 412 is beautiful!

For your running issues it could be many things. Let me toss a few things at you. For starters make sure you have the correct spark plugs installed. Double check that, these engines are very sensitive to this. Also, are you running the correct domed 1700 pistons and cylinder set? That is important because you have the stock injection. The popcorn sound sure sounds like pre ignition/detonation.

The surging/flat spot throttle response could be the throttle switch. They need to be clean and adjusted. Is it the original? Could be the electronic circuit board is worn in places, sending an open signal at times. Very common!

The grey knob on top of the computer is for mixture adjustment.. You really need an exhaust analyzer to set the tail pipe emissions correctly when adjusting.

The round disc by the fuel pump is important. It dampens and smooths out the fuel flow from the pump. You need it I am sure.

Lastly, did you replace your fuel injectors? If so, where did you get them and who made them? I probably will have to replace mine but have not had them tested yet.

This is my 2 cents worth. Let me know how it goes. I am sure Ray will chime in.

Bill


Got a few minutes sitting in a dark room at a client to answer...meant to last night..... Very Happy

The gray knob is for IDLE mixture adjustment only. What controls it....going off memory here...is either or...or a combination of....engine rpm and/or the TVS park position contact.

The gray knob only changes the fuel mixture at idle. Once the throttle opens and/or your rpm goes over something like 1500 rpm ....that knob has no effect.

The popcorn popping sound....may be as Pepperbilly notes. It may be detonation and or reversion.

Typically these intake systems do not suffer from classic reversion issues like a carburetor....because there will never be a time...intake valve timing wise....where an intake valve on one runner slams shut...and a millisecond later when the air column in the runner stacks up into the plenum....that there is not another intake valve at least partially open.... that the over pressure gets pushed into.

But....there is a little exhaust overlap in the stock cams...and even more in aftermarket cams.

How is your ignition timing and your advance set up?

And....have you adjusted the fuel mixture at the MPS?

100% of these cars MUST have a proper adjustment done to the MPS. Its not as simple as just getting the proper part number of MPS. Even if the MPS is brand new NOS....if the engine is no longer making the exact vacuum signature that it came from the factory with that that matches what the MPS is calibrated to......your fuel mixture will be off and you could be running lean.

Nearly 100% of all D-jet injected engines that I find need some adjustment to the MPS.

Also what is your fuel pressure?

The fuel line damper is a time delay....it gets rid of ugly ripples in fuel pressure (as well as noise) that happen.....due to combined fuel pressure pulses/oscillations from several sources.

Between the end of compression pulse of the pump (fuel entering the roller cell and exiting into the line at high pressure) ...compressing along at 5000 rpm....and the oscillation to fuel pressure....from the start and stop action....that happens from injectors robbing pressure from the line...slamming shut...causing rapidly rising and falling fuel pressure by about +/- 1.5 psi....and the same action happening with the metering plate in the fuel pressure regulator....you can get a combined ugly harmonic.

All three of these start stop actions are a "harmonic"...each at different frequencies. The damper gets rid of the biggest one at the fuel pump.

Could the lack of the fuel line damper be causing a large enough fuel pressure oscillation to cause lean spots and detonation under load?

I don't quite know. It very well could....but outside of definitely noting the noise it damps....I have not actually tracked what it may or may not do to steady state fuel pressure oscillation.

The best spark plug hands down for the high compression 1.7L....is the Bosch W7DTC...triple electrode.... or the NGK BP6ET......absolutely the very best spark plugs I have ever found for these engines.

I am hearing that the Bosch W7DTC...has finally been discontinued in production. There are no cross matches for it in the Bosch line ....so do not fall for all of the crap adds out there now.

I.e. ....your search Bosch W7DTC...find it....and the site shows you a different plug and calls it a new cross match number. If it does not have three electrodes.....it is NOT the same plug.

However there are millions of these plugs out there. E-bay and amazon are your friends. In a pinch.....I have about 16 sets new in the box.

NGK still makes the BP6ET....but it has a new number ... NGK 1263

https://www.autozone.com/external-engine/spark-plu...lsrc=aw.ds

Rockauto has these in stock for about $3.50 each
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So.....surging will not be caused by your TVS. Its a vacuum leak, a ground or electrical issue or fuel mixture imbalance. Lots of things to check.

The TVS can be checked with a digital volt meter ...and yes...is easier to check with the throttle body removed....which will then be a gasket/o-ring issue getting it bac on after adjusting.

Bear in mind...these checks are not resistance based...only on/off continuity.

NOTE:....and I have said this before......you will NOT....EVER....get these engines to run correctly at this age...simply by installing all new and correct parts. Thats not how this system works.

Two big things to check....what is the condition of your PCV valve (if you have one). These were a major problem.

What is the condition of the fat screw type plug in the back of your MPS. If its still epoxied in and you have no vacuum leaks from the MPS case o-ring....I can guarantee that you need an adjustment.

If the epoxy is removed.....I can virtually guarantee that its been maladjusted over time and/or definitely needs a full throttle stop adjustment.

Ray
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ClassicCamper
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 1:39 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Great day in the 412. I lowered the idle for the winter, as I won't be using the Air Conditioner, aside from running it every 4 weeks to keep the seals lubricated.

Today, I ran the gas heater and heated seats and she did not disappoint. Since I added the auxiliary battery under the passenger seat to run the A/C, heater, radio and heated seats, the engine does not surge as much. It's quite smooth.

That D-Jet system sure needs every last volt of the battery. It's the best upgrade I've done in a while. Using the Westfalia
dual battery relay kit worked like a charm. Plus, it allows me to use the stock alternator with no problem.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 1:43 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

ClassicCamper wrote:
Great day in the 412. I lowered the idle for the winter, as I won't be using the Air Conditioner, aside from running it every 4 weeks to keep the seals lubricated.

Today, I ran the gas heater and heated seats and she did not disappoint. Since I added the auxiliary battery under the passenger seat to run the A/C, heater, radio and heated seats, the engine does not surge as much. It's quite smooth.

That D-Jet system sure needs every last volt of the battery. It's the best upgrade I've done in a while. Using the Westfalia
dual battery relay kit worked like a charm. Plus, it allows me to use the stock alternator with no problem.


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Got a link to the dual battery kit?

Ray
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 4:17 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Quote:
Got a link to that dual battery kit?




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https://www.busdepot.com/1738


Works like a charm and prevents starting battery from getting too low.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 7:49 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

I thought thta was the one! Thank you+

Somewhere down the line I will start a thread for twin batteries....mainly for planning.

One of the details I am playing with for my car is a new alternator.

As you note.....once you actually get the fuel system tuned out to a level that is better adjusted than factory.....you start noticing its sensitivity to voltage. Too many people with type 4 engined buses or type 4 engined type 3 cars.....will state that the stick 55 amp alternator is plenty. It's not.

Type 4 cars when driven in winter and at night....and in weather......just barely have enough amps. Thats four headlights if you have your brights on, gasoline furnace. Marker and tail lights, ignition, fuel pump, fuel injection, dash lights, wipers....and the occasional brake lights and turn signal.
If you throw in a few accessories....like for yours.....heated seats.....and like for mine....400 watts of headlights and a bitchin stereo......and you get voltage issues at low rpms. This means rich and rough running.

So.....I have been looking at alternators that will fit the same dimensions, have correct or either direction rotation and put out hopefully about 70 amps or better..
.with nothing but a little pulley work and venting to be done.

Yes....there was a bis 70 amp alternator.....but kind of rare now. There was a Motoola used in the mk1 and 2 watercooled VWs and Audis in the 80s. The single wire regulator/brush set is no longer manufactured and kind of rare.

But....there is a very common GM alternator. I think its a Delphi. Its pivot and mounting points will fit. Its depth will fit. I can tinker with the fan and pulley.

Its smallest amps.....is 105 amps. Could have no issues with charging two batteries.

I will start a thread at some point to figure out wiring......but this relay kit sounds smart. Really....I would run brights, heater and stereo from the alternate battery......and run everything else from the main.
Both will never cross connect and both should charge as they require it. Thats the wiring I need to work out. Single alternator feeding two discrete batteries.

I will post a link to the alternator later. Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:52 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Took the 412 out yesterday for its first 'long' trip in about 3 years. For me, that's about 2 hours each way. I've never had an issue with it leaving me stranded, however, I don't typically bring it on a highway where the speed limit is 65 MPH.

Overall, the car ran beautifully, and I brought it up to 70-75MPH at one point. You can really hear the engine RPM's are up there and it is loud in the cabin. I'm hoping that once I put all of the side and rear hatch panels in, it will be a bit quieter. Right now, the hatch is just an exposed piece of sheet metal just aft of the engine.

This trip also allowed me to test out my new double-battery system with the stock alternator, especially since the trip was at night. I've read through Ray's posts about what electric components in these cars consumes the most energy and was really curious how the car would fare. I know from experience, that if you drive these cars with a weak/low battery, the D-Jet fuel injection works erratically at best. I made the mistake of using a tired battery when I first put this on the road and the car ran really bad.

Once I got on the highway, I had the following on for most of the journey:

High beams
Front heated seats (both)
Gas Heater
VW Stock Radio
Defroster fan

I wired the switched part of the heated seats to the starting battery and the load part of the seats to the aux battery. Same with the A/C - the driving battery allows the A/C system to turn on via a relay, but the load for the A/C (compressor, evap fan and condenser fan) all pull from the aux battery. Radio is 100% aux battery.

Very happy with the outcome. The electrical system held up both ways and when I got home and tested the batteries, they were both fully charged for the most part. I put my 6-amp electronic charger on the aux battery, and it ran for about 15 minutes and shut off. Also, while traveling home, I ran the A/C for 10-15 minutes to keep the seals lubricated. Only in a VW can you concurrently run the gas heater and A/C!

Some notes about the heater:
When I first got the gas heater operational, more often than not, the fuse under the rear seat would randomly blow if:

a) the temp setting was set beyond half-way
b) it was running for an extended period of time
c) outside temperature was below freezing

Now -- the heater fuse does not blow anymore, even at full temp and after a long ride. This is how it was fixed:

1) On page 2 of this thread, Ray had me adjust the fuel pump AND run a new wire to the overheat switch. It took me some time to adjust the fuel pump, but well worth it.

2) I rewired the entire car about 6 months ago, and now the dashboard switch performs exactly like it should. Previously, the heater would only work when the switch was in 'timer mode'. Meaning, I'd have to keep pushing in the switch and activating the internal timer to keep the heater running. I had to do that every 15 minutes. I detailed that procedure earlier in the thread.

Credit where credit is due: Ray's heater troubleshooting instructions helped the most. I followed all the steps. There are some great posts across this whole site from folks who have beautifully built and restored these heaters piece by piece, but in the end, Ray's troubleshooting steps saved the day here. For those who have the heaters and want to get them safely operational again....check out Ray's troubleshooting steps earlier in this thread.

One final item on the heater - once in a while, if it has been activated and car is at a standstill, I'll occasionally get a slight smell of fumes. Almost as if a bus is in front of you. If you notice on the T4's front door windows, they have a small curve cut out on the top of the glass. If you roll down the window(s) and just expose that curve, it allows air to flow through the car and expels any smell. The window curves are designed to allow air flow but doesn't create a breeze of cold air. Smart design.

Finally, the engine ran pretty well. Aside from being loud at high RPM's, I'm really happy with its performance. Once in a while, it does have an intermittent issue with the car 'pulsing'. What I mean by this is at speeds over 60 MPH, it almost feels as though someone is slowly pressing on then easing up on the gas pedal. It's definitely not a 'miss' nor does it feel like the engine is being deprived of gas or the proper vacuum. It isn't a sudden loss of power per se. I'd like to find out what is causing that - I replaced most of the D-Jet parts and did my best to calibrate each applicable part. (including the TPS). If it doesn't get any worse, I'll probably let it go until the next scheduled oil change.

That's the latest with my T4; I enjoy reading everyone's stories and progress, so I figured I would share my update as well.

-Ron
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 2:40 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Ron,

You spoke of the engine over 60mph exhibiting a “pulsing” type of behaviour. Was it with the A/C on? A/C cycling can cause this sort of stuff. Feels like an anchor being thrown overboard.

Also vacuum leaks. When I was assembling my injection and intake I ran across a very poor fit and alignment from the throttle body plenum to the intake runners. It was bad! I ended up elongating the throttle body mount holes to better align. That did the trick and got it almost perfect. I would check for vacuum leaks in that area. It is hard to believe that the factory allowed some of this ill fitting hardware to leave the assembly line.

Bill
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 2:43 pm    Post subject: Re: My 412 these days.. Reply with quote

Ron,

You spoke of the engine over 60mph exhibiting a “pulsing” type of behaviour. Was it with the A/C on? A/C cycling can cause this sort of stuff. Feels like an anchor being thrown overboard.

Also vacuum leaks. When I was assembling my injection and intake I ran across a very poor fit and alignment from the throttle body to the intake runners. It was bad! I ended up elongating the throttle body mount holes to better align. That did the trick and got it almost perfect. I would check for vacuum leaks in that area. It is hard to believe that the factory allowed some of this ill fitting hardware to leave the assembly line.

Bill
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