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Davey1188 Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2017 Posts: 12 Location: Peterborough Ontario Canada
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Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:42 pm Post subject: What cause's blow by? Type 4 engine |
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just trying to find out what cause's blow by?
Is it pressure getting by worn rings in to cank case.
Thanks LOTS TO LEARN |
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cmonSTART Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2014 Posts: 1915 Location: NH
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Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:50 pm Post subject: Re: What cause's blow by? Type 4 engine |
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When the piston rings become worn past their service limits compression gases can leak past into the crankcase, and crankcase gases can leak into the combustion chambers (resulting in that burning oil smoke you see on a worn engine.) A compression test can help determine things.
Sometimes other things can cause excessive blowby, like a bad PCV or plugged exhaust.
What is your Bus doing? _________________ '78 Bus 2.0FI
de K1IGS |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:50 pm Post subject: Re: What cause's blow by? Type 4 engine |
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some blow by is normal. excessive blowby can be:
worn rings
worn valve guides
cracked head
cracked piston
scuffed cylinders _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50348
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Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:14 pm Post subject: Re: What cause's blow by? Type 4 engine |
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All four stroke engines need some kind of crankcase ventilation to remove the build up of blowby in the crankcase. The PCV system tends not to give much trouble so most people don't realize its there and even if they do don't understand its importance. |
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timvw7476 Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2013 Posts: 2205 Location: seattle
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Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:48 pm Post subject: Re: What cause's blow by? Type 4 engine |
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It would be incorrect to blame 'worn' rings.
Rings can break on assembly from bad install, they can break via hydro lock or thinned lube thanks to a failed fuel pump diaphragm dumping gas in the sump.
And they can seize due to overheat.
But blow by is usually a tired piston, meaning collapsed skirt dimensions allowing rocking in the cylinder preventing a decent ring seal, or ring lands themselves opened up too much, so the ring again can't seat compression pressure properly, meaning that pressure gets vented to the crankcase.
No bueno. It's two measurements, ring side clearance, & piston to cylinder wall. Once those two, either one, are beyond VW spec, you've got issues, or you're going to have them real soon.
VW's .009" cylinder wall/piston clearance limit is a bit optimistic. Even .007" is a messy oil burning engine in a higher revving Type IV 1800. Easily 1 quart per 1,000 miles usage. I've done it, new pistons, rings & cylinders are the better route every time, unless you simply cannot get new & must re-ring. |
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Davey1188 Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2017 Posts: 12 Location: Peterborough Ontario Canada
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Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:56 am Post subject: Re: What cause's blow by? Type 4 engine |
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SGKent wrote: |
some blow by is normal. excessive blowby can be:
worn rings
worn valve guides
cracked head
cracked piston
scuffed cylinders |
THanks for your help |
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Davey1188 Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2017 Posts: 12 Location: Peterborough Ontario Canada
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Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:57 am Post subject: Re: What cause's blow by? Type 4 engine |
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timvw7476 wrote: |
It would be incorrect to blame 'worn' rings.
Rings can break on assembly from bad install, they can break via hydro lock or thinned lube thanks to a failed fuel pump diaphragm dumping gas in the sump.
And they can seize due to overheat.
But blow by is usually a tired piston, meaning collapsed skirt dimensions allowing rocking in the cylinder preventing a decent ring seal, or ring lands themselves opened up too much, so the ring again can't seat compression pressure properly, meaning that pressure gets vented to the crankcase.
No bueno. It's two measurements, ring side clearance, & piston to cylinder wall. Once those two, either one, are beyond VW spec, you've got issues, or you're going to have them real soon.
VW's .009" cylinder wall/piston clearance limit is a bit optimistic. Even .007" is a messy oil burning engine in a higher revving Type IV 1800. Easily 1 quart per 1,000 miles usage. I've done it, new pistons, rings & cylinders are the better route every time, unless you simply cannot get new & must re-ring. |
THanks for your help |
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Davey1188 Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2017 Posts: 12 Location: Peterborough Ontario Canada
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Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:57 am Post subject: Re: What cause's blow by? Type 4 engine |
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cmonSTART wrote: |
When the piston rings become worn past their service limits compression gases can leak past into the crankcase, and crankcase gases can leak into the combustion chambers (resulting in that burning oil smoke you see on a worn engine.) A compression test can help determine things.
Sometimes other things can cause excessive blowby, like a bad PCV or plugged exhaust.
What is your Bus doing? |
Seems to be leak from where ever it can. |
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TomWesty Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2007 Posts: 3482 Location: Wyoming,USA
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Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:18 am Post subject: Re: What cause's blow by? Type 4 engine |
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Check to see if there is something restricting your crankcase breather system. Your engine may be fine otherwise, but something may blocking it from farting out through the normal breather system, so the gasses seek the path of least resistance. I don't know Type 4 engines, so I don't know the breather setup. _________________ If you haven't bled on them, you haven't worked on them.
Visit: www.tomcoryell.com and check out my music! |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:13 am Post subject: Re: What cause's blow by? Type 4 engine |
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timvw7476 wrote: |
It would be incorrect to blame 'worn' rings.
Rings can break on assembly from bad install, they can break via hydro lock or thinned lube thanks to a failed fuel pump diaphragm dumping gas in the sump.
And they can seize due to overheat.
But blow by is usually a tired piston, meaning collapsed skirt dimensions allowing rocking in the cylinder preventing a decent ring seal, or ring lands themselves opened up too much, so the ring again can't seat compression pressure properly, meaning that pressure gets vented to the crankcase.
No bueno. It's two measurements, ring side clearance, & piston to cylinder wall. Once those two, either one, are beyond VW spec, you've got issues, or you're going to have them real soon.
VW's .009" cylinder wall/piston clearance limit is a bit optimistic. Even .007" is a messy oil burning engine in a higher revving Type IV 1800. Easily 1 quart per 1,000 miles usage. I've done it, new pistons, rings & cylinders are the better route every time, unless you simply cannot get new & must re-ring. |
having disassembled and bored thousands of engines during my time as a machinist, I assure you that compression rings do wear out. They lose their tension too - just as the cylinders wear. That is where the cylinder ridge comes from. And yes, piston skirts can collapse, especially if they get over heated. It would be an error to think that cylinders wear but rings don't. Pinging can cause them to lose their tensile strength, and break also. I would just call all those things worn out. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Crashly Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2009 Posts: 30 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:24 pm Post subject: Re: What cause's blow by? Type 4 engine |
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Worn rings and worn liners are the results of blow by. I have seen a few things that normally cause it.
1. Dirt getting past the filter. Very fine sand makes it way past most filters.
2. Torn or missing air filters.
3. Wear and tear with good oil.
4. wear and tear with bad oil.
5. Poor quality parts
6. Parts that dont fit properly.
7. Sticking rings from carbon build up, or any other debris that has made it way into the cylinder.
8. Cracked rings
9. Bad valves
10. carbon on valve faces
Long story short it pays to have a " blow by" tester. It is fairly cheap and it will tell you where the problem lays. Another tool would be one of the cheap borescopes. This will allow you to see part of the piston and valves. |
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timvw7476 Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2013 Posts: 2205 Location: seattle
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Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:15 pm Post subject: Re: What cause's blow by? Type 4 engine |
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SGKent wrote: |
timvw7476 wrote: |
It would be incorrect to blame 'worn' rings.
Rings can break on assembly from bad install, they can break via hydro lock or thinned lube thanks to a failed fuel pump diaphragm dumping gas in the sump.
And they can seize due to overheat.
But blow by is usually a tired piston, meaning collapsed skirt dimensions allowing rocking in the cylinder preventing a decent ring seal, or ring lands themselves opened up too much, so the ring again can't seat compression pressure properly, meaning that pressure gets vented to the crankcase.
No bueno. It's two measurements, ring side clearance, & piston to cylinder wall. Once those two, either one, are beyond VW spec, you've got issues, or you're going to have them real soon.
VW's .009" cylinder wall/piston clearance limit is a bit optimistic. Even .007" is a messy oil burning engine in a higher revving Type IV 1800. Easily 1 quart per 1,000 miles usage. I've done it, new pistons, rings & cylinders are the better route every time, unless you simply cannot get new & must re-ring. |
having disassembled and bored thousands of engines during my time as a machinist, I assure you that compression rings do wear out. They lose their tension too - just as the cylinders wear. That is where the cylinder ridge comes from. And yes, piston skirts can collapse, especially if they get over heated. It would be an error to think that cylinders wear but rings don't. Pinging can cause them to lose their tensile strength, and break also. I would just call all those things worn out. |
All true stuff, but when these overheat, the skirts on the pistons collapse even partially, then it just cascades from there. Seeing as rings are cheaper than an entire new set of pistons & cylinders people seek a cheap patch & it's only a year or two of seasonal use one could expect from it. Considering labor & longevity & one's time, rings alone rarely(never) set a Type IV up for years of worry-free service. The cold start piston slap that goes away as the engine warms up is the usual reminder it's Time For An Overhaul. Or: As Many New Parts As You Can Afford. lol. |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:05 pm Post subject: Re: What cause's blow by? Type 4 engine |
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depending on other conditions and wear, the piston skirts can sometimes be brought back to clearance using a rawhide mallet and a properly skilled whack. It is not optimal but it will last a reasonable period. It's a feel thing. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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cmonSTART Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2014 Posts: 1915 Location: NH
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Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:39 am Post subject: Re: What cause's blow by? Type 4 engine |
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Lots of good info above. If it helps the OP read this:
https://mechanicbase.com/engine/what-is-a-blow-by/
It's pretty basic but mostly good IMO.
Again though, let us know what exactly you're seeing with your Bus and maybe we can narrow things down a bit. _________________ '78 Bus 2.0FI
de K1IGS |
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