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Shopping for syncro - 3 knob questions
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Klister
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:59 pm    Post subject: Shopping for syncro - 3 knob questions Reply with quote

Yea, yea. I did look at the GW summary and the threads on the forum - so thanks, I think I'm getting it. And while looking at some vans a couple triple knob ones have shown up

Out here in Seattle there is winter snow in the mountains and dirt hills in the summer, for context. Do I have this summary correct:

Front locker - basically gives traction to both front tires
Rear locker - same thing for back
Decoupler/solid shaft - turns vehicle in to a true 4WD - front and rear lockers must be on?

So do you use this in order for how stuck you are? 1st engage rear locker, then if needed activate decoupler, then if needed the front locker?

If the front and rear lockers are not engaged and you activate the decoupler what does this do - and when would you use it?
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Shopping for syncro - 3 knob questions Reply with quote

Klister wrote:
Yea, yea. I did look at the GW summary and the threads on the forum - so thanks, I think I'm getting it. And while looking at some vans a couple triple knob ones have shown up

Out here in Seattle there is winter snow in the mountains and dirt hills in the summer, for context. Do I have this summary correct:

Front locker - basically gives traction to both front tires at the same time
Rear locker - same thing for back
Decoupler/solid shaft - turns vehicle in to a true 4WD - front and rear lockers must be on? No. Decoupler wasn't a mainstream factory accessory, it's just a nice tool to have to switch from 2WD to 4WD

So do you use this in order for how stuck you are? 1st engage rear locker, then if needed activate decoupler, then if needed the front locker? Yes and no, you should be driving with the decoupler engaged, so in AWD with a good Viscous Coupling. If you get stuck, shit's getting hairy, rear locker should get you out, if it's really bad, lock both before digging yourself in too deep.

If the front and rear lockers are not engaged and you activate the decoupler what does this do - and when would you use it?
Again decoupler is just to switch from 2WD to AWD. It's still open differentials unless you use the lockers for the differential of your choice to gain more traction.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Shopping for syncro - 3 knob questions Reply with quote

The decoupler disengaged and the van is 2wd, with it engaged it is awd. If has a solid shaft it is ready for offloading, shouldn't be used on high traction surfaces such as asphalt as there is no slip in the system.
Lockers front or rear lock the axles together so that they turn as a unit, this is helpful when offroad and a tire goes in the air but again shouldn't be used on high traction surfaces.

If you are stuck you should already have the decoupler engaged so you aren't in 2wd mode, after that a rear locker will get you out of most situations and the front locker is rarely used.
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Klister
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Shopping for syncro - 3 knob questions Reply with quote

Thanks for the plain English.

One last question. If you have the solid shaft/decoupler - do folks just use 2WD around town when dry and just engage the decoupler as they see fit? Any advantage of engaging the decoupler on a dry highway?

Thanks all - educational as always
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Shopping for syncro - 3 knob questions Reply with quote

Front locker - ONLY for getting unstuck in loose sand, etc. You can only steer in one direction (whichever direction the wheels were pointing when locked) with very little variance. If you force it something will break.

Note: Because front lockers were never offered in North America, and as only an option rest of the world, not very many available, very expensive to add, parts are rare. Hardly ever used.

Decoupler - Mounted just in front of rear transaxle. VW never offered the decoupler on the Syncros they sold, but all Syncros that had at least a rear locker have all the wiring and vacuum.
It's like the engineers wanted VW to offer but Sales Department didn't.
Easy to add.
Many Syncros these days have one as it was thought during the first part of the 21st century that adding one and using it to decouple the front drive would increase gas milage. Not really true, some evidence points out that keeping the front engaged (with stock VC) helps to disperse load and reduce wear and tear on the fragile Syncro transmission.
Having a decoupler is not a bad thing even with a VC. You can use it to reduce strain when parking on hot pavement in tight places or if your VC is aggressive (wants to engage all the time).

If you opt to remove the VC (viscous coupler) and replace with a solid shaft you MUST have a decoupler. Syncro transmissions are very expensive!

Solid shaft vs VC - VW never offered a solid shaft as an option and if you go this route you lose one of the best things about owning a Syncro; AWD. The solid shaft replaces the VC in the front diff and makes the Syncro a bit better for true, slow, off road maneuvers. However, you have to use the decoupler to disengage the front diff when driving on hard surfaces to avoid damage.
Making the rig 2wd MOST of the time. People who do a lot of travel on sand like in Baja prefer solid shaft.
However, the VC gives the Syncro much better, safer, road manners in all weather conditions and roads. Especially snowy roads or conditions that go from dry to wet, icy, around every corner.
The VC is really a very simple device, and is the forerunner to all the AWD systems. Are there better AWD systems? Yes, but much more complicated.

Rear locker - will get you out of most situations and is a must for off road use. However, the VC by itself works remarkably well and for that reason VW sold a number of Syncros without rear lockers.
Most people who own Syncros with a rear locker hardly ever use, in fact it's a good idea to get in the habit of "exercising" the rear locker engagement to keep it from getting sticky and not working.

You need to think about what kind of driving you really intend to do. If what you want is an outdoor adventure rig for mt biking, skiing, snowboarding, etc. then a Syncro with a rear locker is most likely all you will ever need.
A Syncro with only a VC will get you to the ski hill anytime it's open and up just about any forest service road. A rear locker will help for the really rough, loose stuff.

If what you want is a hard core off road vehicle there are many better options, like Jeep etc. These rigs will go further, last longer, and be cheaper.
Of course they aren't as cool as a Syncro!
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syncrodoka
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Shopping for syncro - 3 knob questions Reply with quote

Well said
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Shopping for syncro - 3 knob questions Reply with quote

All wheel drive comes in many different configurations. I used to take my 87 Quantum Syncro Wagon Up to Steven's and Baker skiing a lot. Those have a Torsen differential in the middle and open diffs front and back. On that vehicle and my Quattro 4000 the pull knob locked the center diff first. After that you could select the rear locker. On snow and ice or gravel I would drive with the center and or rear locked. I would unlock the rear while moving to turn sharply and re-lock when straight again. Of course the main thing was to use appropriate tires. The owner's manual (for America) specifically forbade driving with either locked. The standard torque division for those cars unlocked was to send more torque to the front axle. Just like a Subaru or other front drive car adapted to AWD.

My BMW 325iX is the opposite. it sends most of the torque to the rear axle. It uses a planetary gear set and VC to do this. It also has a VC in the rear diff. It is fairly transparent to the driver and quite neutral under power. The Quattros will understeer when not locked, like a Subaru

The Vanagon Syncro, being rear engine and rear drive delivers most of torque to the rear axle. If you run a solid shaft and a decoupler then it is 50/50 split. Of course if you lock the front and rear axles together you had better be driving on sand or soft snow or something will break.

A rear drive Vanagon is pretty competent in loose conditions. Just like a front drive car in similar conditions. The Bus is just less prone to severe understeer.

A stock Syncro bus with a VC and rear locker should be more than enough for any normal driving conditions. I am pretty sure that the reason that the Syncro buses were prepped for multiple locking diffs is that the Viscous Coupler was a brand new device when they were designed and it was not yet certain that they hold up and work in the real world. They could always fall back on lockers if necessary. And if the military or fire department really need it then extra locker could be installed.

The Syncro T3 was basically designed as a military vehicle. In the mold of the Mercedes Gelandewagen, the Pinzgquer etc.. The VC is what made it suitable for non-professional drivers in the real world.

If you really feel that you need multiple locking differentials you should buy or borrow a vehicle that has them. An old Quattro or Toyota or similar.
I have told this to many people. The weak link in any vehicle being used for any purpose is almost invariably the operator. Investing in driver training and increasing the driver's skill set is always the best performance modification.
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Klister
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Shopping for syncro - 3 knob questions Reply with quote

GoWesty is so convinced that the decoupler is the only way to go that we will not warranty our rebuilt Syncro transaxles unless the customer has a decoupler, or agrees to add a decoupler at the time of install. We and many other shops learned this lesson the hard way: Warranty repairs over and over and over and over again on Syncro transaxles until, finally, the VC was replaced. And since a new VC costs about the same as our decoupler/solid shaft combo (which never wear out)... well, you get the picture—everyone goes with the solid shaft and decoupler. Furthermore, back when were restoring and selling Syncros, they all got a decoupler. Period.

---so, is this just a GW perspective? I'm getting the feeling that a VC and rear locker would be plenty w/o the solid shaft. I'm not going to enter the Moab Rock Crawler Festival.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Shopping for syncro - 3 knob questions Reply with quote

The rear locker and a working VC in the front are the minimum for making the Syncro a really good vehicle.
The front locker is a bonus and having been off road with and without one I will always have one.
The decoupler I consider necessary for in town driving as it takes the strain off the front CV's in tight turns into parking spots, quick turns into anywhere you need to maneuver unexpectedly in a tight turn as in when somebody is coimg out when your going in.

Having said this for off road driving the best thing you can have is the right amount of air in your tires for the surface condition to keep you from getting stuck in the first place.
The AWD & 4WD just allows you to get stuck in more out of the way places and calling it fun!
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Shopping for syncro - 3 knob questions Reply with quote

MsTaboo wrote:
some evidence points out that keeping the front engaged (with stock VC) helps to disperse load and reduce wear and tear on the fragile Syncro transmission.


I agree with most of what MsTaboo wrote, but the Syncro transmission is not fragile per se. Almost all of them run 150,000 miles with zero maintenance. The VW owners manual recommended the zero maintenance and most owners complied, even though logic suggests you ought to maintain it.

They would last much much longer if simply maintained, and if the 3rd/4th hub was replaced at the well-known interval. But most Vanagon owners think it makes sense to drive it until it breaks, destroying many other parts along with it. So many of the failures are user-error, and expected under such conditions.

It's the same as if a timing belt is recommended for replacement at 100,000 miles. It will certainly run longer but it's kinda foolish to just wreck the engine. This has been the Vanagon wisdom of the years. Everybody does it and it's a difficult habit to break (or even discuss).

Many Syncro transaxles have big engines with double the HP passing thru them. Ontop of the non-maintenance they endure. The transaxle has been given a higher duty cycle, and thus require a higher level of maintenance.

OK... that's for a Syncro carrying itself around, camping etc doing 'passenger car' duty. If you want to tow, or yank on stuff, in that capacity they ARE fragile. Toyotas, Fords, GM pickups etc have much bigger components and are designed & rated in gradations of tow capacities and are therefore MUCH tougher.

Klister wrote:
---so, is this just a GW perspective? I'm getting the feeling that a VC and rear locker would be plenty w/o the solid shaft. I'm not going to enter the Moab Rock Crawler Festival.


A Decoupler is handy to have if the VC fails and locks up. But that perspective has you driving in 2wd most of the time, rather than AWD. Where you pay the syncro tax, but don't enjoy the benefits.

As said above, if you are going to drive in soft sand a lot, you will like the solid shaft but then you have to drive in 2wd when NOT on the sand. If you drive on gravel and wet road, you will likely prefer the VC and its AWD.

In general, VC's last a long time. If someone mixes tires, the VC can overheat and age quickly, and fail sooner. The GW perspective was popular a few years ago but is falling by the wayside with the advent of transmission temperature gauges. Now we know that AWD actually reduces the load on the transaxle. Which is logical, as two R&Ps share the load.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:02 am    Post subject: Re: Shopping for syncro - 3 knob questions Reply with quote

Klister wrote:
GoWesty is so convinced that the decoupler is the only way to go that we will not warranty our rebuilt Syncro transaxles unless the customer has a decoupler, or agrees to add a decoupler at the time of install. We and many other shops learned this lesson the hard way: Warranty repairs over and over and over and over again on Syncro transaxles until, finally, the VC was replaced. And since a new VC costs about the same as our decoupler/solid shaft combo (which never wear out)... well, you get the picture—everyone goes with the solid shaft and decoupler. Furthermore, back when were restoring and selling Syncros, they all got a decoupler. Period.


This is nonsense. A Syncro with a VC and a Syncro with a decoupler/solid shaft are both valid vehicles, but they are very different. GW suggesting that a properly functioning VC is somehow responsible for transmission damage is just wrong.

MsTaboo and Sodo have given you much more accurate info.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:13 am    Post subject: Re: Shopping for syncro - 3 knob questions Reply with quote

Hmmm, this is all interesting since I have only had my Syncro since July. I have only used the rear locker when on crappy mountain roads and gone into 4 wheel mode via the decoupler a few times to make sure it works.
Why? I have gone thru rebuilding all the CV's with new boots, grease etc, cleaning up everything underneath and changing out both the transmission and front diff's oil.
Around town I don't see the need to be in AWD at all just to break something.
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Klister
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:29 am    Post subject: Re: Shopping for syncro - 3 knob questions Reply with quote

Mostly what I figured. Thanks. If a good deal on a decoupler van comes up I would consider it but otherwise, for my needs, the VC and rear locker would be plenty.


Very knowledgeable group!


One last question - Am I correct that you can have a solid shaft and still keep the VC?
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:39 am    Post subject: Re: Shopping for syncro - 3 knob questions Reply with quote

Klister wrote:
One last question - Am I correct that you can have a solid shaft and still keep the VC?


Highly advisable to keep the VC, at least in a box on the shelf.🤣🤣
(its either/or)

The problem I see in pursuing a 3-knobber + solid shaft….
is these next limitations attempting to rival the off-road prowess of garden-variety jeeps, pickups, suzuki Samurais….

    1) Syncro granny gear is 6.03:1. Thats too tall for serious offroad, you’re moving too fast at slowest. You need a crawler gear and there is no shorter granny available. If there was, it would twist the axles and hubs off.
    2) Lowest R&P is 6.17:1 and it was made for a 50hp diesel with only 6 teeth on the pinion. Often the van already has an the engine that’s too big for the 90hp drivetrain. Lots of people like their 6.17s, ......'maintain' them well !
    3) Cost of 6:17 set and the “quality” of available replacement R&P sets, and labor cost for exchanging R&P (maybe $5000?).
    4) Suspension articulation is severely limited (in comparison) due to Vanagon short suspension arms
    5) Suspension articulation is severely limited due to the short CV axles
    6) Significant devaluation of a collector vehicle, (dents and stuff)


I don’t doubt this is all fun, but where do you wanna go with this?
You need a good shop and enjoy fixing stuff that you broke.
You need a support system, friends with expertise and spare parts and who will encourage you to fix it then go bust it again, all in fun. Loads of fun.
I could easily join that club if I wasn’t careful……😉😉🤣🤣

The elusive (mythical) 4-knobber (VC/locker) is my dream. I think I could stop right there. (2Peloquins, front locker, 4th knob)😉

A ‘normal’ Syncro Westfalia with just a locker pops a lot of eyeballs already, showing up in remote places (with its top popped & food on the stove etc).
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:31 am    Post subject: Re: Shopping for syncro - 3 knob questions Reply with quote

Klister wrote:
One last question - Am I correct that you can have a solid shaft and still keep the VC?

No. The solid shaft replaces the VC. It's either one or the other.
Living here in the north you're much better off keeping the VC and using it all the time. No real need for a decoupler.

I have a decoupler on mine, bought back in the day when the hype was it helped with gas milage. The Syncro performs much better in AWD (and better than 2wd Vanagons).
I only use the decoupler in limited conditions and could live without.

It doesn't make any sense to have a Syncro and not use the VC (or solid shaft if you're into all that driving in Baja, beaches, etc.).

Yes it's cool to have all the knobs, but really most get by just fine with only a rear locker.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:46 am    Post subject: Re: Shopping for syncro - 3 knob questions Reply with quote

Bleyseng wrote:
Hmmm, this is all interesting since I have only had my Syncro since July. I have only used the rear locker when on crappy mountain roads and gone into 4 wheel mode via the decoupler a few times to make sure it works.
Why? I have gone thru rebuilding all the CV's with new boots, grease etc, cleaning up everything underneath and changing out both the transmission and front diff's oil.
Around town I don't see the need to be in AWD at all just to break something.

All those parts are being use whether you're decoupled or not. In fact it's been shown by those who have installed oil temperature sensors on the transmission that being in AWD full time decreases the gear oil temps. Most likely because the stress is spread out and the rear is not just pushing all that rolling gear in the front.

The VC is your friend and why Syncros are great. With decent tires it provides better handling in all conditions, especially in the rain and snow, but even on dry.

Use the VC. Only decouple in tight conditions or if for some reason you have a tire that's not the same size as the others, or you want to jack up and spin the front wheel for some reason.
Side note to new Syncro owners: Always use four matching tires!

Of course all this applies to a VC in good working order. A failed VC (not engaging) is useless and an aggressive VC (engaging all the time) will give problems. You can tell an aggressive VC by the front tires chirping when making a even a gentle corner, or a heavy feeling in the steering.
And you can check for a failed VC with a test. (do a search)
Here's a great read:
http://users.rcn.com/derekdrew/vanagon/viscous_couplings_vanagon_syncro.htm
And some older info about decouplers:
http://syncro.org/disengager.shtml
And on the VC:
http://syncro.org/the-viscous-coupler/
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Shopping for syncro - 3 knob questions Reply with quote

To add to what MsTaboo said, if the van isn't in AWD mode all of the parts are being pushed along by the vehicle just causing drag. The decoupler is at the tranny so the driveshaft is still spinning along with the front diff and CV axles.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Shopping for syncro - 3 knob questions Reply with quote

syncrodoka wrote:
To add to what MsTaboo said, if the van isn't in AWD mode all of the parts are being pushed along by the vehicle just causing drag. The decoupler is at the tranny so the driveshaft is still spinning along with the front diff and CV axles.

But with load on it, just freewheeling. I am cautious driving in awd as my van’s VC blew up at 65k miles causing $5000 in transmission rebuild costs st AA
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Shopping for syncro - 3 knob questions Reply with quote

If you want a triple knob, you may want to look into a grey market import.

a 3 knob syncro will have great resale value, regardless of how well a vc is over a solid shaft.

I say get one before the prices take off
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:37 am    Post subject: Re: Shopping for syncro - 3 knob questions Reply with quote

Bleyseng wrote:
syncrodoka wrote:
To add to what MsTaboo said, if the van isn't in AWD mode all of the parts are being pushed along by the vehicle just causing drag. The decoupler is at the tranny so the driveshaft is still spinning along with the front diff and CV axles.

But with load on it, just freewheeling. I am cautious driving in awd as my van’s VC blew up at 65k miles causing $5000 in transmission rebuild costs st AA


The early trannys do have a known failure point, the 3-4 hub breaks and can do lots of damage, maybe that was the cause of your tranny issue.
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