Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts New!  See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
NGK multi ground spark plugs
Page: 1, 2  Next
Forum Index -> Performance/Engines/Transmissions Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Mutterranch
Samba Member


Joined: November 21, 2016
Posts: 58
Location: Three Forks, Montana
Mutterranch is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:48 pm    Post subject: NGK multi ground spark plugs Reply with quote

What are all your opinions on multi ground spark plugs like NGK BKUR6ET's?
Advantages / disadvantages?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
nextgen
Samba Member


Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 5388
Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
nextgen is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:43 pm    Post subject: Re: NGK multi ground spark plugs Reply with quote

A lot of the guys love them, and they are great plugs.

But --- My bug has a 2.O 914 engine and a Jacobs Ignition system, which recommends opening the gap to .40 -.50, that is my issue.

The plugs come stock gap .28, I did not like having to adjust each of the 3 prongs. Single gap NGK worked fine, so I pulled them out.

If your engine is stock gap no problem and like I said the guys l love them.
_________________
email: [email protected]
or
[email protected]

The Type IV Upright Conversion Manual
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Igpoe
Samba Member


Joined: February 24, 2019
Posts: 513
Location: Danville, VA
Igpoe is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:01 am    Post subject: Re: NGK multi ground spark plugs Reply with quote

What kind of motor are you thinking of using them in?
_________________
'73 super
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
borninabus
Samba R&D Dept.


Joined: May 18, 2006
Posts: 4321
Location: Arizona Highways
borninabus is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:31 am    Post subject: Re: NGK multi ground spark plugs Reply with quote

i found that they did not last very long. like 20k or so.
i went back to the single prong plugs.
_________________
71 Ghia A/S - 88 Van A/T - 13 JSW TDI 6M/T
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Mutterranch
Samba Member


Joined: November 21, 2016
Posts: 58
Location: Three Forks, Montana
Mutterranch is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:15 am    Post subject: Re: NGK multi ground spark plugs Reply with quote

Itís a 1968cc. Web 218 119 cam and CBís Gen4 EFI and crank trigger ignition.
NGK shows two different plugs 2397 is gapped at 1mm and 7808 is gapped at 0.8mm. Iíve been running the 7808ís
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Ohio Tom
Samba Member


Joined: February 09, 2006
Posts: 1549
Location: Marshallville Ohio
Ohio Tom is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:45 am    Post subject: Re: NGK multi ground spark plugs Reply with quote

Bigger gaps mean more insulation required.

Usually means some kind of direct fire (COP) ignition setup.
No distributor for sure.

Also, multi ground electrode plugs run colder, so they don't foul up.

I had issues trying to run them on my drag motor years ago. Would foul up and mis-fire.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Mutterranch
Samba Member


Joined: November 21, 2016
Posts: 58
Location: Three Forks, Montana
Mutterranch is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:43 am    Post subject: Re: NGK multi ground spark plugs Reply with quote

Thanks for the responses. You answered all my questions. Iím running 0.030 gap. I guess Iíll stay with them.
I just posted the part number 2397 for nextgenís benefit.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
oprn
Samba Member


Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 7577
Location: Western Canada
oprn is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:21 pm    Post subject: Re: NGK multi ground spark plugs Reply with quote

I ran my first set back about 30 years ago on my turbocharged engine. That was the only plug that would last more than a couple of weeks in that engine. I stumbled on to them only because in desperation the find a plug that worked I ordered plugs for the factory supercharged VW Corrado. Those plugs lasted 4 years for me and are in fact still in the engine waiting for me to get it on the road again.

In setting up a type 4 engine for my street Buggy the triple ground plugs were suggested to work well in type 4 engines so I bought them. Do I really need them on a mild N/A engine? I don't know but they are working just fine with about 10K miles on them now. Still look clean and new...

They are not hard to adjust the gaps on by the way, I am running a wasted spark crank trigger system and opened the gaps up. It took less than 5 minutes each to do once I got the hang of it. It's no harder to re-gap 4 of those than 12 single gap plugs.
_________________
I never finish anything, I have a black belt in partial arts!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
raygreenwood
Samba Member


Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 19417
Location: Oklahoma City
raygreenwood is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:24 pm    Post subject: Re: NGK multi ground spark plugs Reply with quote

I have written volumes in these forums about triple electrode plugs. I need to find some of those threads and save the link.

An engine that requires this type of plug and runs better with it...requires it. Typically high compression and lean burn. They also ...for reason not 100% known....work far better with coil voltage better than the basic stock coil of the acvw.

Typically you see noticeable improvement with something as simple as a Perrtronix 42kv flamethrower coil. A lot of the watercooled VWs from late 70s and early 80's that ran these plans from factory ....used a transistorized hall effect system with 50-55kv oil.

Higher voltage makes a noticeably better spark on these plugs

The usefulness of these....is not as so many claim....just for longer life. The lifespan is a little longer....about 30-40% by my experience....but they MUST be kept gapped properly. That requires a specific but pretty cheap Bosch gapping tool....and a little time. You can also just keep a pin gauge and $3 pen vise around and use that.

Part of the difference in HOW they spark is that the spark is at the side of the center electrode....not the top. Its closer to the enclosed area in between the electrodes and has a different ground path that is similar to a "surface discharge" spark plug.

These are the type of plug originally used on motorcycles and that had high compression, ran high rpm and lean mixtures with a lot of turbulence in the combustion chamber ....where sparks could be blown at at high rpm causing a miss.

Yes....only one electrode sparks at a time.....but they all spark and its rare to see the same electrode spark twice in a row.

Because of how they ground....and a shorter ground path.....the variation of temperature of any given electrode....the particular fuel mixture and compressed mixture density in the gap between ground and center electrode........at any given time...one of these three electrodes WILL have lower resistance to ionization....and that electrode will spark.

They also purposely have the electrode ground on the end....into a segment of a circle that fits around the center electrode. That gives each side ground electrode VERY wide surface area .....with very sharp points on the ends of the electrode which actually increase propensity for ionization and spark.

You can see this in the pictures below.

Do they work?

Yes. Virtually any of the 1980's fuel injected water cooled VW's...that used these plugs.....if you changed to a single electrode plug.....it radically changed the idle and had drivability issues at shift points. If you stayed with the single electrode pug....typically the only answer was to fatten the mixture.

Numerous times working on Jetta's and a few golfs and VW fox's for friends and family.....I came across this issue because they took their cars to their mechanic....who.... not being able to find these plugs on the shelf at their jobber or the local FLAPS....they swapped in single electrode platinum or Bosch Super (all good plugs). Car ran like shit.

WE tried a selection of heat ranges of single electrode plugs....resistor...non resistor. Does not run the same on cars tuned for these plugs. Lean, high compression...high voltage systems with a lot of advance.

In a zillion threads in these forums....we get this...or the equivalent:

"Used these plugs on my "X"....and they did nothing....or ran worse."

And....I always ask....Uh....did you change anything else?....mixture? Timing? What coil?

.......and I further ask.....why would expect something "different" or better with a new part like a spark plug...with no other changes to optimize for it? And....its possible your engine does not NEED these plugs. If you are running a basic low-ish compression stock type 1....just put the stock plug in!

I have never seen a triple with un-equal wear between the three electrodes unless that particular electrode had a SMALLER gap than the other two.

Here are a few pictures I snagged out of my gallery of a new and a 40k miles Bosch W7DTC

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



The W7DTC and the NGK BP6ET.....are hands down easily the best sparkplug I have ever found for a type 4 engine with better than stock ignition, high compression and fuel injection.

As for the specific part #NGK BKUR6ET....not sure why you chose that odd part #. I am still deciphering it as it has too many letters and appears to be using nomenclature from early and late charts

Its readout is:

B= 14mm thread
K= 5/8" wrench hex
U= Surface or semi-surface discharge (this is technically the same as BP6ET but no "u" is used)
R= Resistor
6= Heat range...equivalent to Bosch 7
E= 19mm reach
T= Three ground electrodes

The 5/8" he is nice for hard to reach places....but unless you need a resistor I would not get one.

Ray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Mutterranch
Samba Member


Joined: November 21, 2016
Posts: 58
Location: Three Forks, Montana
Mutterranch is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:40 pm    Post subject: Re: NGK multi ground spark plugs Reply with quote

Was using NGK BP6ET. When I went to electronics and needed resistor type plugs the rep at NGK said the BKUR6ETíS were the resistor equivalent.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
raygreenwood
Samba Member


Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 19417
Location: Oklahoma City
raygreenwood is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:37 pm    Post subject: Re: NGK multi ground spark plugs Reply with quote

Mutterranch wrote:
Was using NGK BP6ET. When I went to electronics and needed resistor type plugs the rep at NGK said the BKUR6ETíS were the resistor equivalent.



Ah!....thank you!

I have never needed to use a resistor triple so I have never looked for or seen that part #.

Learn something new every day!

Ray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
slalombuggy
Samba Member


Joined: July 17, 2010
Posts: 8629
Location: 30 minutes from nowhere
slalombuggy is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:45 pm    Post subject: Re: NGK multi ground spark plugs Reply with quote

I had an NGK rep tell me that basically unless you had fuel injection, high compression and electronic ignition, you were pretty much wasting your money with multi ground plugs.
_________________
Lucky Monkey Landspeed Racing
Proving that you can spends ridiculous sums of money to go slow
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
raygreenwood
Samba Member


Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 19417
Location: Oklahoma City
raygreenwood is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:00 pm    Post subject: Re: NGK multi ground spark plugs Reply with quote

slalombuggy wrote:
I had an NGK rep tell me that basically unless you had fuel injection, high compression and electronic ignition, you were pretty much wasting your money with multi ground plugs.



Thats probably true! Its pretty much what I keep telling people.

From my experience driving on these plugs...a lot of engines...a wide range of cars.....and they were all high compression, electronic ignition (specifically with hot coils as well)....and fuel injected.

Its not that you cannot run those three items with carbs....but its less common that you will be at the ragged edge of lean unless you are running very high rpms on something not so streetable.

Its why so many people ...the vast majority of people....who just try these plugs on a whim...say they do nothing. Most are running carbed engines or stockish engines with carbs or even injected engines with low compression. They do not need what these plugs bring to the table.

With most VERY modern cars....there is so much software, self-tunabilty, much more sophisticated combustion chambers etc.....the subtle differences these plugs bring to the table are unecessary.

The interesting thing is that the "middle years" of what I consider modern cars to this date....mid to late 90's....there were still plenty of Euro cars who injection and ignition system and engine configuration were set up around what multi electrode plugs could deliver.

I was even surprised when I pull the plugs on my sisters 1996 B-4 Passat with a VR-6....and found that it required factory NGK or Denso twin electrode surface gap plugs.

Her car was about 3 years out of warranty and her "mechanic" had installed single electrode iridium plugs (great plugs and correct heat range)....and it failed emissions and chugged on shift transitions. I dropped in a set of Denso 5063 plugs.....and it cleaned up immediately.

Yes....with the right software and system the mechanic ...had he or she known...could have tweaked ignition and fuel and the car would have run fine on the iridium plugs.

But...the car was "tuned" around these plugs.....ignition , injection and spark was tuned around these plugs.

Ray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
UK Luke 72
Samba Member


Joined: September 07, 2011
Posts: 2467
Location: Little Britain
UK Luke 72 is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:04 pm    Post subject: Re: NGK multi ground spark plugs Reply with quote

slalombuggy wrote:
I had an NGK rep tell me that basically unless you had fuel injection, high compression and electronic ignition, you were pretty much wasting your money with multi ground plugs.


My 2276 ticks all three boxes I think (compared to vw standards) and I didn't have any success with them.
Could try them again now the map is getting leaner I guess.
_________________
2276 Beetle build https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=670744&highlight=2276+beetle+daily
2276 EFI Conversion https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=689172
1835 Camper build https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=670745&highlight=1835+camper
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Fred Winterburn
Samba Member


Joined: April 17, 2013
Posts: 370
Location: Ripley Ontario Canada
Fred Winterburn is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 5:39 am    Post subject: Re: NGK multi ground spark plugs Reply with quote

Anyone try the triple ground electrode plugs marketed by Accuspark in the UK?
https://www.accuspark.co.uk/plugs.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
raygreenwood
Samba Member


Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 19417
Location: Oklahoma City
raygreenwood is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:41 am    Post subject: Re: NGK multi ground spark plugs Reply with quote

Fred Winterburn wrote:
Anyone try the triple ground electrode plugs marketed by Accuspark in the UK?
https://www.accuspark.co.uk/plugs.html


Over the years I have read bits and pieces of information about them. From snippets of UK government pages that searches have lead to.....Accuspark has been in business since mid 2011.

From pictures I have seen they are different in small details of construction from Bosch and NGK so I dont think either of those two are making them for Accuspark.

They could be making their own....but they tend to come with a gold colored chromate dip coating that looks suspiciously like Champion.

It also brings up the question of whether they are nickel plated like the others....as chromate conversion coating is not functional or needed on nickel.....to my knowledge.

I have read no complaints about Accuspark plugs. Ray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
nextgen
Samba Member


Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 5388
Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
nextgen is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:47 am    Post subject: Re: NGK multi ground spark plugs Reply with quote

It basically come down to trying them, drive them for a while, if it feels the same as single, it is your choice. Do you want to do the extra work to gap them, sure if you get better performance.

As I said in my first post some guys love them.
_________________
email: [email protected]
or
[email protected]

The Type IV Upright Conversion Manual
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
raygreenwood
Samba Member


Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 19417
Location: Oklahoma City
raygreenwood is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:45 am    Post subject: Re: NGK multi ground spark plugs Reply with quote

nextgen wrote:
It basically come down to trying them, drive them for a while, if it feels the same as single, it is your choice. Do you want to do the extra work to gap them, sure if you get better performance.

As I said in my first post some guys love them.


I dont think its about "try them and see if you like them". Again.....its not something that just drops into any engine and automatically makes some kind of dramatic "change".

If your engine never came with them ....its possible and probable that the engine you have needs nothing more for proper ignition that what it came with. And dropping a triple plug like this into a basic engine.....just to see a difference without doimg anything else.....will likely show no changes.

The prime example I have..... The 1.7L high compression engine in 411/412 and 914 and the 2.0L 914 engine....never came with triple electrode plugs.....and in dead stock tune.....does not really benefit.

The main reasons for that are they run a bit richer than they should be from the factory (though its still more lean than the carbed engine) and the stock igntion coil while adequate.....cant really operate this plug noticeably differently.

However.....these particular type 4 engines are notoriously "under ignited". When you start tuning these particular engines a good bit tighter thwn factory.....you run into that factor.

Through the years.....I started see dealers and private tuning shops equipping 914s and a few other up-tuned cars from this era with these plugs.....with noticable improvement in smoothness starting and better tune-ability of fuel mixture.

Going from points to hall effect or points replacement along with better coils also was required.

I was shaking my head and thinking "whatever".....when I first saw this......but the tuning improvement was no lie.

At that point in time......already working on quite a few WC vw's and Audis (and even a few Datsun at one point in time)......that were using this type of plug stock......the lightbulb finally went on that these watercooled cars that ran better on this plug......had the same overall tuning characteristics that the 914 guys and 411/412s were running into. Higher compression, leaner burn .....running even leaner at highway speeds and rpms.

So if improving spark uniformity with electronic ignition and going to a more powerful coil.....and then re-tuning fuel mixture and timing are required to get any useful effect from these type of plugs......how does one know that the improvement you got.....was not just from all of those other improvements?

Pretty simple really......try dripping your original plugs back in and see if you can run exactly the same with all of the subtle tuning you have done.

If the answer is yes.....you never needed triple electrode plugs. You just needed to do a better job of tuning in the first place.

If the answer is no.....then you have your answer......that your engine and its characteristics are a good candidate for this type of plug.

These plugs like every other plug.....are not going to make some kind of dramatic horsepower change. A sparkplug will not manufacture EXTRA hp of any kind.

However if its what your engine and it's fuel and ignition system require......it can allow you to TUNE better....so you do not lose small amounts of the hp capability that your engine combo should have had in the first place.....and mostly you see improvements in throttle response.

I have never advocated that this type of spark plug should be universally used by anyone.....only that it works very well on specific engines with specific configurations. Ray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
dubman67
Samba Member


Joined: April 10, 2003
Posts: 231
Location: Big Sky Country
dubman67 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:55 am    Post subject: Re: NGK multi ground spark plugs Reply with quote

Do they make a 12mm version? I couldn't find one in the ngk charts.
_________________
67 Bug
62 Double Cab
"At 17 got my first Volkswagen...and mastered the life long art of dragin...." Ice Cube
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
raygreenwood
Samba Member


Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 19417
Location: Oklahoma City
raygreenwood is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:16 pm    Post subject: Re: NGK multi ground spark plugs Reply with quote

dubman67 wrote:
Do they make a 12mm version? I couldn't find one in the ngk charts.


12mm reach or 12mm thread diameter?

Ray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Performance/Engines/Transmissions All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2020, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB