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Caveey
Samba Member
Joined: August 21, 2014
Posts: 52
Location: Alberta, Canada
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 Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:59 pm Post subject: New Paint Lotus White...is it right? |
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Hello All,
I FINALLY got to the painting stage in my 68 Notch restore. I had the paint shop mix up some L282 Lotus White to paint the car its born colors.
Question, does the color fade? To me this looks to yellowish but maybe it is my eyes. When looking at it side by side compared to the original paint (underside of the hood) it looks much more yellow. Did they mix it wrong?
FYI the paint in these pictures is 18 hours old.
Thanks for your Help! |
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Mike Fisher
Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 17969
Location: Eugene, OR
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:06 am Post subject: Re: New Paint Lotus White...is it right? |
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It looks fine get the rest painted.
Gonna put clear coat on it to preserve it better?
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66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
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'68 Karmann Ghia sold
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ataraxia
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4504
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:41 am Post subject: Re: New Paint Lotus White...is it right? |
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| Shop lighting can influence the color - get one of them outside in the sun and have a look. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:47 am Post subject: Re: New Paint Lotus White...is it right? |
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| ataraxia wrote: |
| Shop lighting can influence the color - get one of them outside in the sun and have a look. |
Let me add a small correction  ....shop lighting WILL....AFFECT.....color. in fact all lighting will affect colors. Actually outdoor lighting is the worst because its infinitely variable and changes drastically with season, air quality and cloud cover.
But agree...since the car will spend its driving life outdoor.....you need to be happy with what you see outside. Just bear in mind that the outdoor light changes by time of day, cloud cover and season.
A couple of things about white. There are no two white colors, coatings, paints etc.....that are the same. No two "mixed lots" of white will EVER....EVER....EVER....be the same. Never been done in the history of paint because its impossible. The color change under lighting effect you are seeing is called a "metamerism".....its metameric. White paints and coatings are the worst offenders. Virtually all of them.
This is because.....in order for a surface to appear white to your eyes.....it must reflect back to your eye....the full spectrum (or a lot of it) ....of white light....which contains all colors. Very tiny amounts (typically far less than 1/2%) of other colorants in the white paint.....reds...yellows...blues.....are what makes one white different from the others.....more eggshell....more cool blue....or more pinkish.
As the light source changes....it contains more or less of those constituent colors.....so the white you see....changes shade as it reflects those colors back to your eye....either very slightly.....or drastically.
The average white paint has a bare minumum of 3-4 constituent colorant ingredients.....unless its a "mixing" white....meaning one of the single ingredient whites used to different mix tones or tints from.
Any paint or coating using more than two ingredient colors runs a greater ane greater risk of being "metameric".....color shifting in different light sources.
When paints, coatings or inks are being mixed......and if metamerism is a worry.....very careful selection of ingredient mixing colors can help a lot.
Over the past 40+ years into today.....a well equipped paint mixing jobber can match the original color pretty damn exactly......to the eye.....under one or maybe two light,sources. A handheld or benchtop spectrophotometer is used. It reads your color swatch at a set angle with a very clean, full spectrum light,source.....typically either 6500 kelvin or sometimes now 8000 Kelvin.
It can mix from a chosen mixing pigment set......to about a 3-5 delta E or less (sorry phone has no delta symbol). The human eye cannot discern lower than 3 delta E.
The problem is that the mixing paints ....even in the same paint brand and system....will never be exactly the same over time because a lot of those pigments are mined out of the ground. Even if its NOS paint.....it will be different.....because the ketall8c elements...especially the titanium and calcium oxides in white paints....oxidize even in the dark sealed can over time. Typically in about 2-3 years they are already different.
You can get it close.....and just get as close as you can and be happy!
Yes....I am a color nerd. Its a large part of my business and I spent years working for one of the largest fleet graphics producers in the US. Trucks, trains, planes, reflective you name it. The metamerism phenomena......was an all,day, every day ass kicker. We had hundreds of thousands of dollars of special lighting/viewing booths qnd spectrophotometers......and it was still not easy.
Sorry for the length. Ray |
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KTPhil 
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 33986
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:36 am Post subject: Re: New Paint Lotus White...is it right? |
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| One of the reasons I loved my '67 Zenith Blue paint was how it changed from bright blue to grey with even slight purplish tones as the daylight and twilight changed throughout the day. It had personality! |
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Caveey
Samba Member
Joined: August 21, 2014
Posts: 52
Location: Alberta, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:04 am Post subject: Re: New Paint Lotus White...is it right? |
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| Mike Fisher wrote: |
It looks fine get the rest painted.
Gonna put clear coat on it to preserve it better? |
Thanks Mike,
This does have clear coat on it....pictures are really hard to tell I know.
Here is some more that might help. (Don't mind the orange peel, its my first paint job and I haven't wet sanded/polished it yet!! )
Last edited by Caveey on Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:09 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Caveey
Samba Member
Joined: August 21, 2014
Posts: 52
Location: Alberta, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:05 am Post subject: Re: New Paint Lotus White...is it right? |
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| ataraxia wrote: |
| Shop lighting can influence the color - get one of them outside in the sun and have a look. |
Totally agree! and they are LED lights so I know they can be misleading...I am taking a fender out in the sun today now that they are dry |
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Caveey
Samba Member
Joined: August 21, 2014
Posts: 52
Location: Alberta, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:08 am Post subject: Re: New Paint Lotus White...is it right? |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| ataraxia wrote: |
| Shop lighting can influence the color - get one of them outside in the sun and have a look. |
Let me add a small correction ....shop lighting WILL....AFFECT.....color. in fact all lighting will affect colors. Actually outdoor lighting is the worst because its infinitely variable and changes drastically with season, air quality and cloud cover.
~
You can get it close.....and just get as close as you can and be happy!
Yes....I am a color nerd. Its a large part of my business and I spent years working for one of the largest fleet graphics producers in the US. Trucks, trains, planes, reflective you name it. The metamerism phenomena......was an all,day, every day ass kicker. We had hundreds of thousands of dollars of special lighting/viewing booths qnd spectrophotometers......and it was still not easy.
Sorry for the length. Ray |
Great info Ray.
Since I had them make two Gallons and I am painting the fenders separate from the body will the paint match if they come from two separate gallons? Maybe I should mix the two cans together when I go to paint the hood, roof, trunk and doors?
Thanks again everyone for your help!
Rob |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:40 am Post subject: Re: New Paint Lotus White...is it right? |
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| Caveey wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| ataraxia wrote: |
| Shop lighting can influence the color - get one of them outside in the sun and have a look. |
Let me add a small correction ....shop lighting WILL....AFFECT.....color. in fact all lighting will affect colors. Actually outdoor lighting is the worst because its infinitely variable and changes drastically with season, air quality and cloud cover.
~
You can get it close.....and just get as close as you can and be happy!
Yes....I am a color nerd. Its a large part of my business and I spent years working for one of the largest fleet graphics producers in the US. Trucks, trains, planes, reflective you name it. The metamerism phenomena......was an all,day, every day ass kicker. We had hundreds of thousands of dollars of special lighting/viewing booths qnd spectrophotometers......and it was still not easy.
Sorry for the length. Ray |
Great info Ray.
Since I had them make two Gallons and I am painting the fenders separate from the body will the paint match if they come from two separate gallons? Maybe I should mix the two cans together when I go to paint the hood, roof, trunk and doors?
Thanks again everyone for your help!
Rob |
Thats is exactly what I would do...mix both gallons together.
If they are mixing one gallon at a time...very common....Its very hard to get exact amounts of the very small constituent "tinting" colors into the can and make sure they do not get stuck to the mixer blade or sides of the can and not get dispersed evenly. We are talking about volumes like a 10th to a half of a gram.
So when they get in a dribble or two too much of something...the color computers can tell them what to change in the recipe to scale up to keep volumes at the same ratio....but pigments do not always work that way. Not linear.
Some places have large enough scales to run more than 1 gallon at a time .Just to be safe...mix them together to "homogenize" the color. Ray |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22711
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:42 pm Post subject: Re: New Paint Lotus White...is it right? |
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| Caveey wrote: |
| Mike Fisher wrote: |
It looks fine get the rest painted.
Gonna put clear coat on it to preserve it better? |
Thanks Mike,
This does have clear coat on it....pictures are really hard to tell I know.
Here is some more that might help. (Don't mind the orange peel, its my first paint job and I haven't wet sanded/polished it yet!! )
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Clear coat can add a different color tone to your paint because of how it reflects light back to the eye. When you wet sand and buff, this effect may lessen.
My own opinion only- clear coat looks overrestored on these cars. The original colors were single stage (except the early metallics). An exact match on B/C paint to SS is almost an impossible ask because of the way light is filtered by the CC.
The other problem you'll run into is "modern formulas" for old colors. Sometimes they are right, but sometimes not, esp. in urethane SS paints.
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To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:46 pm Post subject: Re: New Paint Lotus White...is it right? |
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Yes! Well pointed out Dr. Tram!
In all uses.....a clear coat does three things:
1. There is no such thing as a perfectly "clear" clear coat. They all have some very slight color cast. On some colors they neither add or subtract subtle colors being reflected from tje paint to your eye. On others.....they can magnify very subtle strains of color like a filter.
2. A clear coat is a .....LENS. It magnifys what is there. It can enhance subtle background shades and add richness to a background tone that may have been imperceptible without a clear coat.
3. It can be used to enhance gloss. As specular gloss increases.....it reflects a LOT of light away ....ranging from infrared ....through a certain amount of visible light and a lot of ultraviolet.
Gloss can make the surface absorb less heat and be cooler (infrared).....and absorb less UV so it lasts longer.....but when you lose some of tbe lower energy visible light and natural fluorescence crom UV that certain pigments may have.....it changes the color a bit. Ray |
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pedro sainz
Samba Member
Joined: July 26, 2005
Posts: 1429
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:48 pm Post subject: Re: New Paint Lotus White...is it right? |
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Will this Help?
My 68 Automatic Lotus White
_________________
68 T34 1600 Automatic
62 T34 Cabriolet Prototype
N.O.N.A member #3
The Truth is Out There |
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Caveey
Samba Member
Joined: August 21, 2014
Posts: 52
Location: Alberta, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:03 am Post subject: Re: New Paint Lotus White...is it right? |
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Totally helpful!
Thanks everyone, I brought it outside and it looks way more what I was expecting, my garage lights make it look really yellowish but outside it looks much more white/cream.
Thanks everyone!
Rob |
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Big Bill
Samba Member
Joined: June 21, 2005
Posts: 1782
Location: Santa Rosa, Ca
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:10 am Post subject: Re: New Paint Lotus White...is it right? |
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| Beautiful car pedro, and everyone's eyes see colors in different hues. Pedro's car looks just a little yellow to my eyes |
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 33986
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:47 am Post subject: Re: New Paint Lotus White...is it right? |
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| pedro sainz wrote: |
Will this Help?
My 68 Automatic Lotus White
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Aaaawww, Pedro, you made me drool all over my keyboard again!
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vwfye
Samba Member
Joined: April 15, 2000
Posts: 7661
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:15 am Post subject: Re: New Paint Lotus White...is it right? |
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| Caveey wrote: |
Totally helpful!
Thanks everyone, I brought it outside and it looks way more what I was expecting, my garage lights make it look really yellowish but outside it looks much more white/cream.
Thanks everyone!
Rob |
Purdy!
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22396
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 4:17 pm Post subject: Re: New Paint Lotus White...is it right? |
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| Big Bill wrote: |
| Beautiful car pedro, and everyone's eyes see colors in different hues. Pedro's car looks just a little yellow to my eyes |
That's the other thing, not all monitors show colors the same. My Sea Blue#2 T-34 was a real PIA to paint, as the color would change from one end of it to the other while it was being sprayed. Add in the clear coat, and it wasn't quite as bad, but it still flip flopped on it's own. Take it outside, and it would change again, get closer to sunset, and the "green car" would start turning purple. For being a solid color, that thing would change colors like it was painted with "Chrome Illusion" (a special paint from Dupont, that was made to do that).
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| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Erik G
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2002
Posts: 13263
Location: Tejas!
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:52 am Post subject: Re: New Paint Lotus White...is it right? |
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looks like lotus to me - looks great
also agree on the clear being "over-restored" but lots of people don't know how to paint with anything else now |
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Caveey
Samba Member
Joined: August 21, 2014
Posts: 52
Location: Alberta, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:20 pm Post subject: Re: New Paint Lotus White...is it right? |
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Thanks!
Its funny I was originally going to do single stage and the guy at the paint shop convinced me to base clear...
I guess I will be more glossy than my original folks |
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Erik G
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2002
Posts: 13263
Location: Tejas!
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: New Paint Lotus White...is it right? |
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| I should have added - shops want to sell clear LOL. Most body work is collision type job stuff and they want to paint a door and blend in the clear to make it look ok cheap and fast |
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