Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts New!  See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought
Page: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Forum Index -> Type 3 Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
RedSquare
Samba Member


Joined: August 28, 2017
Posts: 218
Location: Kansas City
RedSquare is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:06 pm    Post subject: Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought Reply with quote

Hello all. I have a 1968 Squareback that still has the FI intact and working pretty well, but it feels like it could use some tuning. I try to do all of my work myself if I can, but am not too proud to ask for help - thank god for the Samba.

Rather than become a distributor expert and spend a bunch of time trying to find suitable replacement parts (the NOS snipe hunt) for the stock unit, I decided to buy the 123 Ignition. I’d still like to recondition the stock distributor and have it at the ready, but that may not be practical. Time will tell.

In the mean time, I’m looking for some feedback from those who may have installed these before. The stock distributor (or at least the one I just pulled out of it - I think it is the stock unit) is the Bosch 0 231 163 001, or VW part 311 905 205 L.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



I bought the 123 Ignition model for the Type 3 with D Jet, model 123\VW-R-V-IE

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



And in looking at the ignition curves I can select from, it appears that curve “B” is most appropriate for my car. Do you agree? I say this because it is the only curve that lists my distributor number and the Remarks column in their table below says “3/1600” which I interpret to mean that it is for a Type 3 with the 1600 engine.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So - whatcha think? Am I picking the right curve?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
FastyOrange
Samba Member


Joined: November 15, 2012
Posts: 91
Location: Greenville, SC
FastyOrange is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:20 am    Post subject: Re: Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought Reply with quote

You are going to like the 123ignition distributor. I upgraded to one a little over a year ago and it is the best thing I that I have done for my car to date.

Definitely email 123ignition in the Netherlands with your distributor part numbers and ask them which distributor and curve is correct for your application. I made the mistake of ordering first, and asking second and found out I bought the wrong distributor. For my '72 Fastback it was the Porsche distributor with d-jet harness rather than the VW distributor. FWIW, I found their support people to be very helpful and pretty quick to respond.

Jon
_________________
72 FI Fastback
70 FI Fastback (Parts Car)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
raygreenwood
Samba Member


Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 19439
Location: Oklahoma City
raygreenwood is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:43 am    Post subject: Re: Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought Reply with quote

Also.....I "think" from the comments of others that they have an option that allows a tunable advance curve for some models.....which I believe are the E and F models that list "for tuning". If that is true....the "E" looks more appropriate.

I think this is quite important....because with changes from factory like a little more or less compression, age of the EFI system with throttle plate leakage etc. , tire sizes, fuel quality, fuel pressure stability variation.......or maybe even modest changes like a new or aftermarket cam or exhaust........its going to be rare that any D-jet system at this point in time just absolutely runs its best set bang on factory timing.

Its also worth it to remember that just like with the original distributor.....as you change timing and/or distributor position....it changes the injection timing point. This has effect on mixing and affects idle and shift transitions. Ray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
the.fordhams
Samba Member


Joined: February 11, 2004
Posts: 458
Location: Charlotte, NC
the.fordhams is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:05 am    Post subject: Re: Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought Reply with quote

A little more info on this page from oldvolkshome
https://oldvolkshome.wetwesties.org/ignition.htm#C1964S
a 205E is static timed for 10deg btdc but alas the spec for vac advance is not known. Seems like a 205E made a lot of vac advance to get to the 28deg total range.
_________________
63 OG Turkis Bug project
63 Pearl White Ragtop Bug
65 Notchback 1500S patina
65 11w Mountain Bus project
65 SO42 Patina
67 SO42 welding project
03 Eurovan Weekender
08 Treg

WANTED :
Roy Payne Decatur Alabama VW dealer tag surround,
Alabama VW literature for 63 bug
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
RedSquare
Samba Member


Joined: August 28, 2017
Posts: 218
Location: Kansas City
RedSquare is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:15 am    Post subject: Re: Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought Reply with quote

Thanks Ray. This car is completely stock (no changes to cam, etc.) but I take your point about not necessarily assuming that bone stock will yield the best result. I don't suppose there is any harm in trying the two different settings (B vs. E) and using the highly technical "seat of the pants" method of gauging the relative performance between the two?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
RedSquare
Samba Member


Joined: August 28, 2017
Posts: 218
Location: Kansas City
RedSquare is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:18 am    Post subject: Re: Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought Reply with quote

And thanks the.Fordhams for the link. The distributor number in the pic is hard to read, but this one is the 205L, not the 205E. Makes sense as this is a '68 manual trans with FI, and that aligns with the entry further on down in the link you sent.

So for this car the stock timing is set at 0 deg BTDC.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
the.fordhams
Samba Member


Joined: February 11, 2004
Posts: 458
Location: Charlotte, NC
the.fordhams is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:34 am    Post subject: Re: Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought Reply with quote

Good spot, and it looks like 205L uses a 07 022 vacuum can which in other places on that page suggest the vacuum adds 8-12deg Adv which is comparable to the 9deg that the 123 adds. To me curve B looks like 'safer' at 25deg at 3500 and curve E looks racier with 30deg at 3200. Either way sounds fun testing.
_________________
63 OG Turkis Bug project
63 Pearl White Ragtop Bug
65 Notchback 1500S patina
65 11w Mountain Bus project
65 SO42 Patina
67 SO42 welding project
03 Eurovan Weekender
08 Treg

WANTED :
Roy Payne Decatur Alabama VW dealer tag surround,
Alabama VW literature for 63 bug
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Tram Premium Member
Samba Socialist


Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22323
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
Tram is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought Reply with quote

I agree with Ray- go with E.

You will love this unit. I first discovered these years ago while dealing with early 911s with their damn CDI bullshit and the incredibly expensive repairs. What a simple and very practical solution- it eliminates the CDI entirely, but still runs the tach. NO MORE expensive, random CDI failures or dealing with clunky MSD plus Pertronix setups.

These VW units are great in that they eliminate all the trigger point bullshit, too.

There are two things to keep in mind.
First, in my extensive experience with these, I've gotten the best burn, performance, and plug life across the board coupling the 123 with this coil and resistor combo:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/164909079183?epid=75474949&hash=item266558da8f:g:zPgAAOSwb7ddQF9k

Second- one thing they don't tell you is the orientation of the two leads for the triggers. One lead goes in each of the outer female connectors in the OE harness (the center ground is not used). In my experience, plug these wires in one way, road test, then switch them and see if performance improves. Leave the trigger contacts hooked up to where it runs best; e.g., trigger timing is optimal.

I have probably sold and installed 20 plus of these units (across classic Mercedes, Porsche, VW) and never seen a failure. You will love it!
_________________
vwfye wrote:
Oh the joy of custom things...


If water is the only drink for a wise man, there are serious upsides to being stupid.


RIPRW

"I'm very fond of long walks, especially when taken by those who annoy me."- Fred Allen
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
RedSquare
Samba Member


Joined: August 28, 2017
Posts: 218
Location: Kansas City
RedSquare is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought Reply with quote

Thanks Tram - I appreciate you sharing your $0.02 on this. I had seen previous threads on this with your comments that were similarly favorable.

Thanks for the tip on the trigger contact hook-up. I hadn't yet looked deeply enough into this to see that the manufacturer hasn't specified which one connects to which. I'll experiment, recognizing that the center contact in the harness stays open.

With respect to the coil and resistor combo you suggested, I pulled it up and its shows up as a coil for MB cars - on the Ebay listing anyway. I just wanted to double check and make sure that was a deliberate recommendation for this VW since I know you do a lot of work on MB cars too.

This coil and resister combo is still ok for this Type 3?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
KTPhil Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 29901
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
KTPhil is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought Reply with quote

Tram wrote:
First, in my extensive experience with these, I've gotten the best burn, performance, and plug life across the board coupling the 123 with this coil and resistor combo:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/164909079183?epid=75474949&hash=item266558da8f:g:zPgAAOSwb7ddQF9k


Dumb question, but what is the resistor for, and how do you wire it?

Tram wrote:
Second- one thing they don't tell you is the orientation of the two leads for the triggers. One lead goes in each of the outer female connectors in the OE harness (the center ground is not used). In my experience, plug these wires in one way, road test, then switch them and see if performance improves. Leave the trigger contacts hooked up to where it runs best; e.g., trigger timing is optimal.


I wonder if this is due to the changed injector timing somewhere in '72?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Did you fit some sort of boot around those wires where they connect? I haven't seen how those trigger wires come... twisted ends, or a connector?

Last dumb question... how do you select the advance profile? Jumpers? I don't think I ordered the BT version.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
RedSquare
Samba Member


Joined: August 28, 2017
Posts: 218
Location: Kansas City
RedSquare is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought Reply with quote

I'll leave it to Tram to answer the question on the resistor and how to wire it, but I know the answers to the other questions you've asked. (Or at least I think I do.)

The trigger wires come with tiny little spade connectors already installed that slide into the FI harness fitting. I think you just poke them inside, leaving the center one in the fitting open - it is for the ground connection I believe, and this distributor gets its ground through the body to block connection.

The advance profile is selected via a dial inside the body of the distributor. Unscrew a small hex plug on the body to reveal a small dial inside, rotate the pointer with a small screwdriver to the curve you want, reinstall the hex plug and away you go.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
raygreenwood
Samba Member


Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 19439
Location: Oklahoma City
raygreenwood is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought Reply with quote

Tram wrote:
I agree with Ray- go with E.

You will love this unit. I first discovered these years ago while dealing with early 911s with their damn CDI bullshit and the incredibly expensive repairs. What a simple and very practical solution- it eliminates the CDI entirely, but still runs the tach. NO MORE expensive, random CDI failures or dealing with clunky MSD plus Pertronix setups.

These VW units are great in that they eliminate all the trigger point bullshit, too.

There are two things to keep in mind.
First, in my extensive experience with these, I've gotten the best burn, performance, and plug life across the board coupling the 123 with this coil and resistor combo:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/164909079183?epid=75474949&hash=item266558da8f:g:zPgAAOSwb7ddQF9k

Second- one thing they don't tell you is the orientation of the two leads for the triggers. One lead goes in each of the outer female connectors in the OE harness (the center ground is not used). In my experience, plug these wires in one way, road test, then switch them and see if performance improves. Leave the trigger contacts hooked up to where it runs best; e.g., trigger timing is optimal.

I have probably sold and installed 20 plus of these units (across classic Mercedes, Porsche, VW) and never seen a failure. You will love it!


That coil looks quite a bit like the ~50kv transistor triggered coils from CIS injected coils and some of the digifant cars. If so.....superb coil!

I think you mentioned this coil a while back. Cool!

Ray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
KTPhil Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 29901
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
KTPhil is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought Reply with quote

RedSquare wrote:
I'll leave it to Tram to answer the question on the resistor and how to wire it, but I know the answers to the other questions you've asked. (Or at least I think I do.)

The trigger wires come with tiny little spade connectors already installed that slide into the FI harness fitting. I think you just poke them inside, leaving the center one in the fitting open - it is for the ground connection I believe, and this distributor gets its ground through the body to block connection.

The advance profile is selected via a dial inside the body of the distributor. Unscrew a small hex plug on the body to reveal a small dial inside, rotate the pointer with a small screwdriver to the curve you want, reinstall the hex plug and away you go.


Thanks, good to know on both counts.
I didn't realize how many models there are... I'm going to have to go check mine and be sure I ordered the right one! I think I used a link in a thread here without checking (my bad).


Another question... Since the engine lid sits so close to the SP wires coming out of the cap, VW used right-angle connectors. Should I use/order the 123 right-angle distributor cap, or will the standard still fit there?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
KTPhil Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 29901
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
KTPhil is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
That coil looks quite a bit like the ~50kv transistor triggered coils from CIS injected coils and some of the digifant cars. If so.....superb coil!
Ray


Does the current lack of Bosch NON-resistor plugs, combined with the standard 1K SP connector resistance, have any bearing on use of this coil or resistor?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
RedSquare
Samba Member


Joined: August 28, 2017
Posts: 218
Location: Kansas City
RedSquare is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought Reply with quote

Hmmm…well, on the distributor cap question, I don’t know but expect that I will know before tonight is over. I ordered the straight cap not even considering this question. Wish me luck, and I’ll report back what I find.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Tram Premium Member
Samba Socialist


Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22323
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
Tram is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought Reply with quote

KTPhil wrote:
Tram wrote:
First, in my extensive experience with these, I've gotten the best burn, performance, and plug life across the board coupling the 123 with this coil and resistor combo:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/164909079183?epid=75474949&hash=item266558da8f:g:zPgAAOSwb7ddQF9k


Dumb question, but what is the resistor for, and how do you wire it?

Tram wrote:
Second- one thing they don't tell you is the orientation of the two leads for the triggers. One lead goes in each of the outer female connectors in the OE harness (the center ground is not used). In my experience, plug these wires in one way, road test, then switch them and see if performance improves. Leave the trigger contacts hooked up to where it runs best; e.g., trigger timing is optimal.


I wonder if this is due to the changed injector timing somewhere in '72?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Did you fit some sort of boot around those wires where they connect? I haven't seen how those trigger wires come... twisted ends, or a connector?

Last dumb question... how do you select the advance profile? Jumpers? I don't think I ordered the BT version.


The coil is an externally resisted coil for electronic ignition. Bosch blue coils have the resistor built in. Externally resisted coils have been preferred by Mercedes since the 1960s. It's almost routine to find 50 plus year old original Mercedes coils that still work just fine after hundreds of thousands of miles. Having the resistor OUTSIDE the coil reduces coil heat significantly.

Basically, how it works is that at cold startup you get full spark voltage straight through. As the resistor heats up, it drops running voltage to the coil to lessen the spark. This minimizes coil heat and plug wear.

Wire your coil + wire to the resistor, then the resistor to coil +.
_________________
vwfye wrote:
Oh the joy of custom things...


If water is the only drink for a wise man, there are serious upsides to being stupid.


RIPRW

"I'm very fond of long walks, especially when taken by those who annoy me."- Fred Allen


Last edited by Tram on Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ataraxia
Samba Member


Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4442
Location: Illinois
ataraxia is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought Reply with quote

RedSquare wrote:
Hmmm…well, on the distributor cap question, I don’t know but expect that I will know before tonight is over. I ordered the straight cap not even considering this question. Wish me luck, and I’ll report back what I find.


The only difference between the two models (angled cap and straight cap) is the actual cap itself. The basic model that I have now is largely the same as the OE Bosch distributor that it replaced. It might be a couple of MM different? They use Beru caps.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Tram Premium Member
Samba Socialist


Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22323
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
Tram is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought Reply with quote

ataraxia wrote:
RedSquare wrote:
Hmmm…well, on the distributor cap question, I don’t know but expect that I will know before tonight is over. I ordered the straight cap not even considering this question. Wish me luck, and I’ll report back what I find.


The only difference between the two models (angled cap and straight cap) is the actual cap itself. The basic model that I have now is largely the same as the OE Bosch distributor that it replaced. It might be a couple of MM different? They use Beru caps.


You'll be fine with the cap it comes with- the reason being that the 123 doesn't have the extra height to the distributor body that the OEM unit has for the mechanical trigger points. The 123 triggers are digital- basically a triggered chip- which dispenses with the extra height required. The short cap AND the angled wires were put into production solely because of the height of the OE FI distributor body.
_________________
vwfye wrote:
Oh the joy of custom things...


If water is the only drink for a wise man, there are serious upsides to being stupid.


RIPRW

"I'm very fond of long walks, especially when taken by those who annoy me."- Fred Allen
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
RedSquare
Samba Member


Joined: August 28, 2017
Posts: 218
Location: Kansas City
RedSquare is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought Reply with quote

Ok - good news and bad news…

Good news = got it installed with minimal drama
Bad news = darn thing wouldn’t start

Will have to try again tomorrow. Will do a dumb check to see if I’ve swapped a wire somewhere or something equally silly.

And it does fit under the deck lid just fine - no issue there.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
RedSquare
Samba Member


Joined: August 28, 2017
Posts: 218
Location: Kansas City
RedSquare is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought Reply with quote

So here is a summary of my install process. As noted in my previous post, the car wouldn’t start when I was done with this, but I’ll give it another go tomorrow.

An earlier question on this thread asked about the wires from the unit and how they were terminated from the manufacturer. The wires that go to the coil are untermimated (you get to do that) while the wires to the FI harness have their own connectors already added.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Next I opened the plug where the advance curve is selected, and using a very small screwdriver I selected map E as was also previously discussed here.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Then I replaced that hex plug and got the distributor ready for installation. Here is a pic of the new one and the stock one side by side. On this car, the shaft of the 123 Ignition distributor is a bit longer than stock, so it comes with a spacer that fills the extra length compared to stock, which you can see laying next to the new one on the far right.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Slid the spacer ring on, then the distributor clamp. I don’t think you have to take the distributor clamp off of the car in the first place if you don’t want to, but mine was clamped on so tight that I had a hard time getting the stock distributor out without pulling it too. If you do remove it like I did, pay attention to the orientation when you put it back on.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Once the new distributor has been inserted into the engine, you need to make sure it is seated all the way down and engages the assembly below it. So I pressed down on the body while gently rotating the rotor back and forth until I felt the dogs in the shaft engage with their counterparts down below, at which point the distributor body slipped down the last 1/4” or so into its proper location. Made sure the distributor clamp bolt was tightened at this point and carried on.

Next I competed most of the wiring. Connected the two wires into either end of the FI plug. Not sure which one goes in which side (read earlier parts of this thread) so I just landed them one on each end and will try the reverse of this at a later time.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Terminated the red lead to the + side of the coil, but left the black lead taped off and not connected yet per the instructions.

Next up is basically static timing. Per the instructions you look in the holes in the plate under the rotor for the green LED light.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Once you see that, you rotate the body CCW until the light goes out.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Then rotate the body and rotor (just to take out any slop) clockwise just until the light comes on again, at which point you should be close enough to get it to run, then use a timing light to more accurately set the timing. (I’m not turning the body and rotor in this shot as I was holding the camera, but I did put the camera down to do it as described.)

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



At this point, I put the black lead to the - terminal on the coil, installed the cap and connected all of the plug wires, and had it all back together except the vacuum line which you would normally disconnect for timing anyway.

As in all fiddling with cars, the moment of truth comes when you go to start it.

Good news for me —> no trapped smoke was released.
Bad news for me —> the car cranked over fine, but didn’t start.

Gave it a few tries and then had to wash up for dinner. Will think on it and give it another go tomorrow. Comments/suggestions and the pointing out of obvious screw ups is most welcome.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Type 3 All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 1 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2020, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB