Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought

[RedSquare]

Hello all. I have a 1968 Squareback that still has the FI intact and working pretty well, but it feels like it could use some tuning. I try to do all of my work myself if I can, but am not too proud to ask for help - thank god for the Samba.

Rather than become a distributor expert and spend a bunch of time trying to find suitable replacement parts (the NOS snipe hunt) for the stock unit, I decided to buy the 123 Ignition. I’d still like to recondition the stock distributor and have it at the ready, but that may not be practical. Time will tell.

In the mean time, I’m looking for some feedback from those who may have installed these before. The stock distributor (or at least the one I just pulled out of it - I think it is the stock unit) is the Bosch 0 231 163 001, or VW part 311 905 205 L.

I bought the 123 Ignition model for the Type 3 with D Jet, model 123\VW-R-V-IE

And in looking at the ignition curves I can select from, it appears that curve “B” is most appropriate for my car. Do you agree? I say this because it is the only curve that lists my distributor number and the Remarks column in their table below says “3/1600” which I interpret to mean that it is for a Type 3 with the 1600 engine.

So - whatcha think? Am I picking the right curve?

[FastyOrange]

You are going to like the 123ignition distributor. I upgraded to one a little over a year ago and it is the best thing I that I have done for my car to date.

Definitely email 123ignition in the Netherlands with your distributor part numbers and ask them which distributor and curve is correct for your application. I made the mistake of ordering first, and asking second and found out I bought the wrong distributor. For my '72 Fastback it was the Porsche distributor with d-jet harness rather than the VW distributor. FWIW, I found their support people to be very helpful and pretty quick to respond.

Jon
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72 FI Fastback
70 FI Fastback (Parts Car)

[raygreenwood]

Also.....I "think" from the comments of others that they have an option that allows a tunable advance curve for some models.....which I believe are the E and F models that list "for tuning". If that is true....the "E" looks more appropriate.

I think this is quite important....because with changes from factory like a little more or less compression, age of the EFI system with throttle plate leakage etc. , tire sizes, fuel quality, fuel pressure stability variation.......or maybe even modest changes like a new or aftermarket cam or exhaust........its going to be rare that any D-jet system at this point in time just absolutely runs its best set bang on factory timing.

Its also worth it to remember that just like with the original distributor.....as you change timing and/or distributor position....it changes the injection timing point. This has effect on mixing and affects idle and shift transitions. Ray

[the.fordhams]

A little more info on this page from oldvolkshome
https://oldvolkshome.wetwesties.org/ignition.htm#C1964S
a 205E is static timed for 10deg btdc but alas the spec for vac advance is not known. Seems like a 205E made a lot of vac advance to get to the 28deg total range.
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[RedSquare]

Thanks Ray. This car is completely stock (no changes to cam, etc.) but I take your point about not necessarily assuming that bone stock will yield the best result. I don't suppose there is any harm in trying the two different settings (B vs. E) and using the highly technical "seat of the pants" method of gauging the relative performance between the two?

[RedSquare]

And thanks the.Fordhams for the link. The distributor number in the pic is hard to read, but this one is the 205L, not the 205E. Makes sense as this is a '68 manual trans with FI, and that aligns with the entry further on down in the link you sent.

So for this car the stock timing is set at 0 deg BTDC.

[the.fordhams]

Good spot, and it looks like 205L uses a 07 022 vacuum can which in other places on that page suggest the vacuum adds 8-12deg Adv which is comparable to the 9deg that the 123 adds. To me curve B looks like 'safer' at 25deg at 3500 and curve E looks racier with 30deg at 3200. Either way sounds fun testing.
_________________
63 OG Turkis Bug project
65 OG Safari Beige Notch
65 OG Pearl SO42 Patina
67 SO42 welding project
03 Eurovan Weekender
08 Touareg 2 V6

WANTED :
Bob King VW dealer Wilmington NC dealer tag surround and any Literature for 03 Weekender

[Tram]

I agree with Ray- go with E.

You will love this unit. I first discovered these years ago while dealing with early 911s with their damn CDI bullshit and the incredibly expensive repairs. What a simple and very practical solution- it eliminates the CDI entirely, but still runs the tach. NO MORE expensive, random CDI failures or dealing with clunky MSD plus Pertronix setups.

These VW units are great in that they eliminate all the trigger point bullshit, too.

There are two things to keep in mind.
First, in my extensive experience with these, I've gotten the best burn, performance, and plug life across the board coupling the 123 with this coil and resistor combo:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/164909079183?epid=75474949&hash=item266558da8f:g:zPgAAOSwb7ddQF9k

Second- one thing they don't tell you is the orientation of the two leads for the triggers. One lead goes in each of the outer female connectors in the OE harness (the center ground is not used). In my experience, plug these wires in one way, road test, then switch them and see if performance improves. Leave the trigger contacts hooked up to where it runs best; e.g., trigger timing is optimal.

I have probably sold and installed 20 plus of these units (across classic Mercedes, Porsche, VW) and never seen a failure. You will love it!
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[RedSquare]

Thanks Tram - I appreciate you sharing your $0.02 on this. I had seen previous threads on this with your comments that were similarly favorable.

Thanks for the tip on the trigger contact hook-up. I hadn't yet looked deeply enough into this to see that the manufacturer hasn't specified which one connects to which. I'll experiment, recognizing that the center contact in the harness stays open.

With respect to the coil and resistor combo you suggested, I pulled it up and its shows up as a coil for MB cars - on the Ebay listing anyway. I just wanted to double check and make sure that was a deliberate recommendation for this VW since I know you do a lot of work on MB cars too.

This coil and resister combo is still ok for this Type 3?

[KTPhil]

[RedSquare]

I'll leave it to Tram to answer the question on the resistor and how to wire it, but I know the answers to the other questions you've asked. (Or at least I think I do.)

The trigger wires come with tiny little spade connectors already installed that slide into the FI harness fitting. I think you just poke them inside, leaving the center one in the fitting open - it is for the ground connection I believe, and this distributor gets its ground through the body to block connection.

The advance profile is selected via a dial inside the body of the distributor. Unscrew a small hex plug on the body to reveal a small dial inside, rotate the pointer with a small screwdriver to the curve you want, reinstall the hex plug and away you go.

[raygreenwood]

[KTPhil]

[KTPhil]

[RedSquare]

Hmmm…well, on the distributor cap question, I don’t know but expect that I will know before tonight is over. I ordered the straight cap not even considering this question. Wish me luck, and I’ll report back what I find.

[Tram]

[ataraxia]

[Tram]

[RedSquare]

Ok - good news and bad news…

Good news = got it installed with minimal drama
Bad news = darn thing wouldn’t start

Will have to try again tomorrow. Will do a dumb check to see if I’ve swapped a wire somewhere or something equally silly.

And it does fit under the deck lid just fine - no issue there.

[RedSquare]

So here is a summary of my install process. As noted in my previous post, the car wouldn’t start when I was done with this, but I’ll give it another go tomorrow.

An earlier question on this thread asked about the wires from the unit and how they were terminated from the manufacturer. The wires that go to the coil are untermimated (you get to do that) while the wires to the FI harness have their own connectors already added.

Next I opened the plug where the advance curve is selected, and using a very small screwdriver I selected map E as was also previously discussed here.

Then I replaced that hex plug and got the distributor ready for installation. Here is a pic of the new one and the stock one side by side. On this car, the shaft of the 123 Ignition distributor is a bit longer than stock, so it comes with a spacer that fills the extra length compared to stock, which you can see laying next to the new one on the far right.

Slid the spacer ring on, then the distributor clamp. I don’t think you have to take the distributor clamp off of the car in the first place if you don’t want to, but mine was clamped on so tight that I had a hard time getting the stock distributor out without pulling it too. If you do remove it like I did, pay attention to the orientation when you put it back on.

Once the new distributor has been inserted into the engine, you need to make sure it is seated all the way down and engages the assembly below it. So I pressed down on the body while gently rotating the rotor back and forth until I felt the dogs in the shaft engage with their counterparts down below, at which point the distributor body slipped down the last 1/4” or so into its proper location. Made sure the distributor clamp bolt was tightened at this point and carried on.

Next I competed most of the wiring. Connected the two wires into either end of the FI plug. Not sure which one goes in which side (read earlier parts of this thread) so I just landed them one on each end and will try the reverse of this at a later time.

Terminated the red lead to the + side of the coil, but left the black lead taped off and not connected yet per the instructions.

Next up is basically static timing. Per the instructions you look in the holes in the plate under the rotor for the green LED light.

Once you see that, you rotate the body CCW until the light goes out.

Then rotate the body and rotor (just to take out any slop) clockwise just until the light comes on again, at which point you should be close enough to get it to run, then use a timing light to more accurately set the timing. (I’m not turning the body and rotor in this shot as I was holding the camera, but I did put the camera down to do it as described.)

At this point, I put the black lead to the - terminal on the coil, installed the cap and connected all of the plug wires, and had it all back together except the vacuum line which you would normally disconnect for timing anyway.

As in all fiddling with cars, the moment of truth comes when you go to start it.

Good news for me —> no trapped smoke was released.
Bad news for me —> the car cranked over fine, but didn’t start.

Gave it a few tries and then had to wash up for dinner. Will think on it and give it another go tomorrow. Comments/suggestions and the pointing out of obvious screw ups is most welcome.