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Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought
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KTPhil Premium Member
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought Reply with quote

Thanks for that photo-rich post! let us know what the issue was once you get it to start.

I'm not liking that open connector to the harness for the trigger points. I don't want to modify my harness (i want to carry a spare distributor onboard on long trips), so maybe I'll hack some crappy trigger points to make up a sealed connector.

Anyone got a spoiled set to donate for the experiment?
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought Reply with quote

KTPhil wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:
That coil looks quite a bit like the ~50kv transistor triggered coils from CIS injected coils and some of the digifant cars. If so.....superb coil!
Ray


Does the current lack of Bosch NON-resistor plugs, combined with the standard 1K SP connector resistance, have any bearing on use of this coil or resistor?


Forget Bosch plugs. As a German-American, it pains me to say this, but I am a confirmed NGK non resistor man since the mid 90s on early German cars. At this stage in the game, for pre OBD cars, they are the only game in town. NGK B6HS with this coil setup and 123.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought Reply with quote

KTPhil wrote:
Thanks for that photo-rich post! let us know what the issue was once you get it to start.

I'm not liking that open connector to the harness for the trigger points. I don't want to modify my harness (i want to carry a spare distributor onboard on long trips), so maybe I'll hack some crappy trigger points to make up a sealed connector.

Anyone got a spoiled set to donate for the experiment?


Email me your info to [email protected]. At this stage with the availability of the 123, I'll likely liquidate my distributor core and trigger point stash. They're obsolete.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought Reply with quote

Tram wrote:
KTPhil wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:
That coil looks quite a bit like the ~50kv transistor triggered coils from CIS injected coils and some of the digifant cars. If so.....superb coil!
Ray


Does the current lack of Bosch NON-resistor plugs, combined with the standard 1K SP connector resistance, have any bearing on use of this coil or resistor?


Forget Bosch plugs. As a German-American, it pains me to say this, but I am a confirmed NGK non resistor man since the mid 90s on early German cars. At this stage in the game, for pre OBD cars, they are the only game in town. NGK B6HS with this coil setup and 123.


Yep...sadly...save for a few special plugs for modern VW cars like the FR7HE02 that goes into my 2012 Golf.....and the W7DTC triples....which are superb on high compression type 4 engines ....out of production but I have boxes of them.....I am tending to agree.

Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought Reply with quote

RedSquare wrote:
Thanks Tram - I appreciate you sharing your $0.02 on this. I had seen previous threads on this with your comments that were similarly favorable.

Thanks for the tip on the trigger contact hook-up. I hadn't yet looked deeply enough into this to see that the manufacturer hasn't specified which one connects to which. I'll experiment, recognizing that the center contact in the harness stays open.

With respect to the coil and resistor combo you suggested, I pulled it up and its shows up as a coil for MB cars - on the Ebay listing anyway. I just wanted to double check and make sure that was a deliberate recommendation for this VW since I know you do a lot of work on MB cars too.

This coil and resister combo is still ok for this Type 3?


Sorry I missed your question. Yes, in my opinion and experience, this coil and resistor should be used with all 123s along with the NGK nonresistor plugs. In both my shop and my consulting biz through a lot of experimentation on Porsches with Webers, PMOs, and MFI as well as Mercedes with Solexes, Zeniths, the Solex Quadrajunk wanna- be, and MFI engines- the red coil/ red resistor/ NGK nonresistor combo is the shining star in all scenarios for troublefree operation. One of the interesting things with the Porsche PMO/ 123 combo is that a heat range 6 nonresistor NGK is actually less prone to fouling than the hotter 5 under all conditions. This tells me that this is a very efficient system. This has proven true on MFI cars as well including M-B.

Yes, I know you Bosch people are scratching your heads going 'WTF!'... NGK plug heat ranges are opposite- the lower the number, the hotter the plug.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought Reply with quote

First thing I'd check is to see if the distributor drive popped out.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:20 am    Post subject: Re: Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought Reply with quote

Also check the rotor arm is pointing to the same cylinder as the original setup, for example it could now be one off. Or go to tdc for #1 and make sure the rotor arm is firing into lead #1 on the cap.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought Reply with quote

Tram wrote:
Sorry I missed your question. Yes, in my opinion and experience, this coil and resistor should be used with all 123s along with the NGK nonresistor plugs.


Got it, and thanks for confirming. As it happens I just installed the NGK plugs you referenced in this thread, so I'm good there. Trying to get the car running again with this 123 Ignition distributor and my existing blue Bosch coil to begin with, then will return to the topic of the coil and deal with this.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought Reply with quote

RedSquare wrote:
Tram wrote:
Sorry I missed your question. Yes, in my opinion and experience, this coil and resistor should be used with all 123s along with the NGK nonresistor plugs.


Got it, and thanks for confirming. As it happens I just installed the NGK plugs you referenced in this thread, so I'm good there. Trying to get the car running again with this 123 Ignition distributor and my existing blue Bosch coil to begin with, then will return to the topic of the coil and deal with this.


If you wind up needing ignition wires with angled ends - I'm using NGK 57411 wires - they're a tiny bit long but super nice - the plug end is thinner than the Bosch wires. I have a 1904 and the short IDF manifolds make getting plug wire ends on/off difficult. It is significantly easier with the NGK wires. They're on Amazon and RockAuto.com.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 5:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought Reply with quote

Ok - messed with it again and still stumped. Have re-verified the wiring, and that I did not cross wire anything.

Main lead from the coil to the cap is on solid on both ends, as are each of the plug wires. Red lead from the 123 is on the + side of the coil, black is on the negative.

Made sure that the shaft has not popped up and off of the drive below it. Rotated the rotor back and forth and felt it bump into the groove in the shaft below. Barely rotated as you would expect.

So, I started over. Went back and rotated the engine to TDC with the rotor pointing to the #1 plug on the cap. Followed the instructions again with respect to rotating the body until the light just comes on, which should get the timing close enough to start the car and then adjust with a timing light. No go. Tried it a third time. No go. At this point, I was the poster boy for the definition of of insanity - doing the same thing over and over while hoping for a different result.

Then I tossed all of that and tried a more basic method that still didn’t work. Went back to TDC and rotor at #1, then just eyeballed the rotor position relative to the center of the #1 plug on the cap. Didn’t look to be in good alignment at all - visibly quite different. I was generally expecting the center of the rotor’s conductive tip to be at the center of the #1 plug on the cap, but it sure didn’t look to be. So I rotated the body until the #1 plug on the cap was centered on the center of the rotor at TDC. Ignored the LED in this attempt. Didn’t expect it would work, and it didn’t.

Did notice that in the process of doing the static timing with the unit’s green LED, there are multiple places that you can rotate the body to and have that green LED just light up. See the two pics below, both of which were taken just as the green light comes on as per instructions. I don’t get that.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



I’m still missing something, and probably something obvious. Does anyone here see it? Car no worky.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 5:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought Reply with quote

ataraxia wrote:


If you wind up needing ignition wires with angled ends - I'm using NGK 57411 wires - they're a tiny bit long but super nice - the plug end is thinner than the Bosch wires. I have a 1904 and the short IDF manifolds make getting plug wire ends on/off difficult. It is significantly easier with the NGK wires. They're on Amazon and RockAuto.com.


Thanks for the recommendation. I might replace mine. They don’t look too bad, but the boot that goes to the coil is brittle and partially split. I don’t care about that per se, but I wonder if that is an indication that they are aged. Pics below.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought Reply with quote

Just FYI-

8. What kind of high tension leads will be a good choice in connection with 123\ignition?
Of course it is always possible to use your original HT-leads for the original look, but some of our customers have experienced strange behaviours from misfiring up to non-starting engines in connection with copper core cables. For the best performance we advise so-called "carbon tension leads". These cables have a little resistance and very good isolation. We offer a wide variety from stock looking 7 mm cables up to cables in various colours with 8 mm diameter.

This is from the www.123ignition.de site, which seems to have more tech info than the NL site.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought Reply with quote

You know, I didn’t remember that until you reminded me of it here. I think they also might have warned about old coils that may have previously been overheated too. I’ll go back and re-read their stuff again - I should have done that already. Perhaps I’ll test the coil too. It worked fine with the stock distributor, but maybe not with this one.

At the link below they are even more definitive about the cables. They say flat out that copper core are not suitable for use with this.

https://www.123ignition.de/123-ignition-en/ignition-distributor-vw-1500-1600-type-3-variant.aspx

“Please note:
Ignition cables with copper core are not suitable for use with this ignition distributor. Likewise older ignition cables should be replaced. For suitable ignition lead sets, see below.
Older ignition coils and ignition coils with a resistance below 1 ohm in the primary circuit (between terminals 1 and 15) lead to malfunction/total failure. The appropriate ignition coil with the parameters required for your vehicle, see below”

That conflicts with what it says on their US website:

“ Of course it is always possible to use your original HT-leads for the original look. Even when your engine has solid copper core cables it would work with a 123ignition. For the best performance we advise “carbon tension leads”. These cables have a little resistance and very good isolation”

I don’t mind replacing the HT leads anyway, as mine are old and at least one of the boots is cracked. Looks like I’m probably buying more parts.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought Reply with quote

Don't the 1K resistors built into the SP connectors at the plug end take care of the needed resistance? it is also equal for all four leads, regardless of cylinder.

I had troubles with carbon core wiring a long time ago. Bend it tightly and it can fail. Snapping it into the tight plastic wire clips on the shroud can do it. And the SP connectors made poor contact. Stranded wire cores never have these problems.

But I'm open to opinions on the latest products. A few things have changed in 30 years. Not me, of course.


Last edited by KTPhil on Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:19 am    Post subject: Re: Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought Reply with quote

RedSquare wrote:
You know, I didn’t remember that until you reminded me of it here. I think they also might have warned about old coils that may have previously been overheated too. I’ll go back and re-read their stuff again - I should have done that already. Perhaps I’ll test the coil too. It worked fine with the stock distributor, but maybe not with this one.

At the link below they are even more definitive about the cables. They say flat out that copper core are not suitable for use with this.

https://www.123ignition.de/123-ignition-en/ignition-distributor-vw-1500-1600-type-3-variant.aspx

“Please note:
Ignition cables with copper core are not suitable for use with this ignition distributor. Likewise older ignition cables should be replaced. For suitable ignition lead sets, see below.
Older ignition coils and ignition coils with a resistance below 1 ohm in the primary circuit (between terminals 1 and 15) lead to malfunction/total failure. The appropriate ignition coil with the parameters required for your vehicle, see below”

That conflicts with what it says on their US website:

“ Of course it is always possible to use your original HT-leads for the original look. Even when your engine has solid copper core cables it would work with a 123ignition. For the best performance we advise “carbon tension leads”. These cables have a little resistance and very good isolation”

I don’t mind replacing the HT leads anyway, as mine are old and at least one of the boots is cracked. Looks like I’m probably buying more parts.


The US site is highly unreliable and not directly affiliated with the manufacturer - I would hazard to guess that they didn't translate the information properly for the website.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:43 am    Post subject: Re: Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought Reply with quote

Poking around online this morning, and I'm not seeing a wealth of available spark plug wires with the correct 90 ends that are also carbon core. I can have them made to order by the German 123 Ignition website, but that feels like overkill. Maybe what is needed though....

The ones ataraxia suggested (NGK 57411) look very nice but are noted as copper core, so that leaves me wondering about them in tandem with the 123.

Tram - you noted you have installed a number of these 123 Ignitions. Have you noticed any performance/reliability issues with carbon vs. copper core spark plug wires?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:11 am    Post subject: Re: Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought Reply with quote

If you have an assistant you could check you're getting sparks out of the end of the HT leads. Are you sure the rotor arm is pointing to the #1 lead when its sending that spark?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:12 am    Post subject: Re: Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought Reply with quote

RedSquare wrote:
Poking around online this morning, and I'm not seeing a wealth of available spark plug wires with the correct 90 ends that are also carbon core. I can have them made to order by the German 123 Ignition website, but that feels like overkill. Maybe what is needed though....

The ones ataraxia suggested (NGK 57411) look very nice but are noted as copper core, so that leaves me wondering about them in tandem with the 123.

Tram - you noted you have installed a number of these 123 Ignitions. Have you noticed any performance/reliability issues with carbon vs. copper core spark plug wires?


Well, that's odd because my car starts right up with my existing 123 distributor.

Just noticed this on the NL site:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


https://www.123ignitionshop.com/gb/ht-leads/216-cablesbeetle.html

I looked at several sets of wires in their shop and they're all copper core, so...


Last edited by ataraxia on Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:33 am    Post subject: Re: Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought Reply with quote

the.fordhams wrote:
If you have an assistant you could check you're getting sparks out of the end of the HT leads. Are you sure the rotor arm is pointing to the #1 lead when its sending that spark?


Haven't done an independent check on whether there is spark at the plug end of the HT leads yet. That would be a good sanity check.

I did consider the question as to whether the rotor was really pointing at the #1 lead or not. I spoke to this a little bit in an earlier post in this thread:

"Then I tossed all of that and tried a more basic method that still didn’t work. Went back to TDC and rotor at #1, then just eyeballed the rotor position relative to the center of the #1 plug on the cap. Didn’t look to be in good alignment at all - visibly quite different. I was generally expecting the center of the rotor’s conductive tip to be at the center of the #1 plug on the cap, but it sure didn’t look to be. So I rotated the body until the #1 plug on the cap was centered on the center of the rotor at TDC. Ignored the LED in this attempt. Didn’t expect it would work, and it didn’t."

I have been very diligent about making sure that each of these attempts start at TDC with the rotor in the #1 position.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:49 am    Post subject: Re: Installing 123 Ignition Distributor - advice sought Reply with quote

ataraxia wrote:
Well, that's odd because my car starts right up with my existing 123 distributor.


I wondered about that. Was assuming that you had no issues with copper and 123 since you suggested the NGK set. Any special coil you are running?
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