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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12728
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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 Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:31 am Post subject: Re: 76 Riviera Starts then dies after about 2 seconds |
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| ToolBox wrote: |
| When the key returns to the run position from the start position are all the key on items functioning? I have seen ignition switch electrical portions with failed run positions. The contact heats up and sinks into the plastic causing a no contact issue. |
Good call.
The quickest way to rule that out would be a wire directly from battery + to the coil 15/+ posts. If no worky, your switch is probably fine.
--
Re-reading your posts, my guess is now on the tach (yellow wire) fouling up the spark signal to the ECU from coil negative. Disconnect the yellow wire and try again.
Robbie
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50353
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:31 am Post subject: Re: 76 Riviera Starts then dies after about 2 seconds |
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| Make up a 14 gauge jumper with a spring clamp on one end large enough to somehow grab the positive battery cable end and on the other a small insulated alligator clamp, the whole thing needs to be long enough to reach the fuel pump, so maybe 7' or so. An added inline fuse on the battery end gives you extra points. |
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SGKent 
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:43 am Post subject: Re: 76 Riviera Starts then dies after about 2 seconds |
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Could be lots of things but I'd make sure that the fuel pump is running when the flap is opened with the key in the on position. I believe that the double relay isn't used during starting but takes over once the starter is released. The ignition switch also uses a second set of contacts in the start position. If the primary set are worn out it may run while the key is in the start position.
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50353
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:57 am Post subject: Re: 76 Riviera Starts then dies after about 2 seconds |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| I believe that the double relay isn't used during starting but takes over once the starter is released. |
The trigger coil for the Fuel Pump side of the double relay is fed from both the #50 starter circuit and the points in the AFM. There is a diode that prevents backfeeding into the starter circuit once the points in the AFM close. |
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redruf
Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2013
Posts: 34
Location: SW Fla
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 5:20 pm Post subject: Re: 76 Riviera Starts then dies after about 2 seconds |
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Thanks Robbie, ToolBox, SGKent, Wildthings, I'm willing to check out all possibilities and all suggestions.
I have to prep the house here in Northern NY for the winter and do some oil changes for our other vehicles. I also have to change the brakes and brake rotors on the minivan that we use to travel. As soon as that is done, I'll concentrate on the Bus. Hopefully by the weekend. I would hate to have to leave my Bus here but, it will be in a nice dry garage. It doesn't fit in my garage down in Florida and don't want to have it not running down there.
BTW, I also have a 1983 Pinzgauer 710K, the more muscular cousin of the VW Bay Window Bus
The next project, eventually. |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51156
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 5:23 pm Post subject: Re: 76 Riviera Starts then dies after about 2 seconds |
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Sweet!, I'm jealous! 
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redruf
Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2013
Posts: 34
Location: SW Fla
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 5:49 pm Post subject: Re: 76 Riviera Starts then dies after about 2 seconds |
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Thanks Busdaddy!
Unfortunately, the last time it ran was 2015, then it started sputtering while I was on the road, I quickly turned around , made it home, parked it and it never ran again. |
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redruf
Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2013
Posts: 34
Location: SW Fla
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:02 pm Post subject: Re: 76 Riviera Starts then dies after about 2 seconds |
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[Re-reading your posts, my guess is now on the tach (yellow wire) fouling up the spark signal to the ECU from coil negative. Disconnect the yellow wire and try again.]
Thanks Robbie. I disconnected the tach and it's still doing the same thing. Would that DK Blue wire have anything to do with it?
I tried tracing it to see where it goes after it goes through the rubber grommet with the red wire and it looks like they both connect to something, don't know if it's the starter or the solenoid, it's definitely on the same side as where they go through the grommet. Right side of bus. Of course each is attached to a separate stud secured by a nut. I'll try and get a picture of what it's connected to. |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:25 pm Post subject: Re: 76 Riviera Starts then dies after about 2 seconds |
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did you get a noid light?
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=bosch+ii+noid+light&ref=nb_sb_noss
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50353
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:06 pm Post subject: Re: 76 Riviera Starts then dies after about 2 seconds |
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| redruf wrote: |
I tried tracing it to see where it goes after it goes through the rubber grommet with the red wire and it looks like they both connect to something, don't know if it's the starter or the solenoid, it's definitely on the same side as where they go through the grommet. Right side of bus. Of course each is attached to a separate stud secured by a nut. I'll try and get a picture of what it's connected to. |
They don't look like stock wires to me. My tendency would be to take a picture of where they attach and then disconnect and remove them using normal care so as to not short anything out. |
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redruf
Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2013
Posts: 34
Location: SW Fla
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:23 pm Post subject: Re: 76 Riviera Starts then dies after about 2 seconds |
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Yes I did. Hopefully, to run tests this weekend. |
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redruf
Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2013
Posts: 34
Location: SW Fla
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:25 pm Post subject: Re: 76 Riviera Starts then dies after about 2 seconds |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| redruf wrote: |
I tried tracing it to see where it goes after it goes through the rubber grommet with the red wire and it looks like they both connect to something, don't know if it's the starter or the solenoid, it's definitely on the same side as where they go through the grommet. Right side of bus. Of course each is attached to a separate stud secured by a nut. I'll try and get a picture of what it's connected to. |
They don't look like stock wires to me. My tendency would be to take a picture of where they attach and then disconnect and remove them using normal care so as to not short anything out. |
I agree, they don't look stock. I'll definitely take a picture of exactly what it's connected to and post it. |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50353
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:26 pm Post subject: Re: 76 Riviera Starts then dies after about 2 seconds |
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Your alternator belt looks loose to me. Probably has little to do with your no start assuming your battery is good.
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Abscate
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Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22671
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:35 pm Post subject: Re: 76 Riviera Starts then dies after about 2 seconds |
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Do a quick test of disconnecting the tach wire to make sure it isn’t messing up your FIJ signal. Unlikely but really easy to do.
How far up North are you from Albany? Might have some bandwidth next week.
By the way those KN filters aren’t causing your running problems but aren’t good for cars in general
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redruf
Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2013
Posts: 34
Location: SW Fla
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:54 am Post subject: Re: 76 Riviera Starts then dies after about 2 seconds |
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| Abscate wrote: |
Do a quick test of disconnecting the tach wire to make sure it isn’t messing up your FIJ signal. Unlikely but really easy to do.
How far up North are you from Albany? Might have some bandwidth next week.
By the way those KN filters aren’t causing your running problems but aren’t good for cars in general |
I'll disconnect the tach wire again and give it another shot. I'll see if I can get another air filter. Can I run a quick test without the air filter to see if it's not getting enough air?
I'm in Massena so about 3 hours away from your location. |
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redruf
Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2013
Posts: 34
Location: SW Fla
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:16 am Post subject: Re: 76 Riviera Starts then dies after about 2 seconds |
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| ToolBox wrote: |
| When the key returns to the run position from the start position are all the key on items functioning? I have seen ignition switch electrical portions with failed run positions. The contact heats up and sinks into the plastic causing a no contact issue. |
Thanks for the info, ToolBox. Yes, all switched items work. Surprised me, I was sure something wouldn't be working. |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22671
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 3:10 am Post subject: Re: 76 Riviera Starts then dies after about 2 seconds |
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| redruf wrote: |
| Abscate wrote: |
Do a quick test of disconnecting the tach wire to make sure it isn’t messing up your FIJ signal. Unlikely but really easy to do.
How far up North are you from Albany? Might have some bandwidth next week.
By the way those KN filters aren’t causing your running problems but aren’t good for cars in general |
I'll disconnect the tach wire again and give it another shot. I'll see if I can get another air filter. Can I run a quick test without the air filter to see if it's not getting enough air?
I'm in Massena so about 3 hours away from your location. |
Air filter
Yes you can. It’s a long term poor filtration that’s the issue. Don’t worry about it for now
If you are driving by ALB ping me and stop in today hello
It’s a good 4 hours to me, beautiful country!
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redruf
Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2013
Posts: 34
Location: SW Fla
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:15 am Post subject: Re: 76 Riviera Starts then dies after about 2 seconds |
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| Abscate wrote: |
| redruf wrote: |
| Abscate wrote: |
Do a quick test of disconnecting the tach wire to make sure it isn’t messing up your FIJ signal. Unlikely but really easy to do.
How far up North are you from Albany? Might have some bandwidth next week.
By the way those KN filters aren’t causing your running problems but aren’t good for cars in general |
I'll disconnect the tach wire again and give it another shot. I'll see if I can get another air filter. Can I run a quick test without the air filter to see if it's not getting enough air?
I'm in Massena so about 3 hours away from your location. |
Air filter
Yes you can. It’s a long term poor filtration that’s the issue. Don’t worry about it for now
If you are driving by ALB ping me and stop in today hello
It’s a good 4 hours to me, beautiful country! |
Thanks for the invite. Likewise, if you happen to be around the Massena area, give me shout. It will have to be next year since we're heading south soon. Unfortunately, we head west from here and take 81 not 87 to go south. |
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redruf
Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2013
Posts: 34
Location: SW Fla
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: 76 Riviera Starts then dies after about 2 seconds |
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| I took out the K&N Air Filter and attempted a start....again, it died after about a second. I started it again and gave it some gas and was able to keep it running, unfortunately, the tach was reading around 3k so I took my foot off the gas and it sputtered and died. |
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redruf
Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2013
Posts: 34
Location: SW Fla
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| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 9:01 pm Post subject: Re: 76 Riviera Starts then dies after about 2 seconds |
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Traced the DK Blue Wire
From Engine Compartment
And...looks like it is taped together to the same Orange wire that goes through the engine compartment with it....
the Orange Wire is then taped/connected to lite blue wire which is then attached to the positive side of the coil
Now I'm really confused because the DK Blue wire is not connected to anything...??? |
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