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74SBBaja
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Joined: July 03, 2020
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Location: TN
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 Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:37 pm Post subject: Oil Non Return Valve |
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EDIT: After some testing, I found that the FRAM hp1 does a good job from stopping the oil from draining back in to the pan. Hopes this helps someone.
Take care.
Hi,
For those running external oil coolers; do you use non return valves to keep the oil from draining back in to the pan or do you rely on the check valve of the remote oil filter?
Thanks for the help.
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Build Thread - https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=757112
Last edited by 74SBBaja on Sun Oct 31, 2021 12:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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BFB
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Joined: November 03, 2014
Posts: 1757
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:27 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Non Return Valve |
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it just drains back
_________________
Forced induction can overcome a lot of obsticles that gets in it's way
"You are the Engineer and the Mechanic.
Build it your way not the way someone else does it. Their way might not work for you." - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
“ The monkey see monkey do mentality seems to run deep in VW people. "Gene Berg said it was so 30 years ago so thats the way it is" “ - bdkw1 |
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74SBBaja
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Location: TN
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oprn
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Joined: November 13, 2016
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 2:03 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Non Return Valve |
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And that is exactly why large industrial stationary engines that are worth in the tens of thousands of dollars have pre-lube and post post lube systems. The vast majority of normal engine wear happens on start up.
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We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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74SBBaja
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Joined: July 03, 2020
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Location: TN
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 2:32 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Non Return Valve |
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| oprn wrote: |
| And that is exactly why large industrial stationary engines that are worth in the tens of thousands of dollars have pre-lube and post post lube systems. The vast majority of normal engine wear happens on start up. |
Yes, that is why I posted the question.
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74 SB
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Wulfthang
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Joined: August 25, 2018
Posts: 719
Location: Tucson
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 4:03 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Non Return Valve |
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| oprn wrote: |
| And that is exactly why large industrial stationary engines that are worth in the tens of thousands of dollars have pre-lube and post post lube systems. The vast majority of normal engine wear happens on start up. |
My Rail has a separate switch for Start and another one for Ignition. I like to hit the Start switch for several seconds before switching on the ignition so that oil will get flowing before it starts.
My engine is a Ford V6 with a very large plate style oil cooler and a separate extra large oil filter. I know for a fact that the oil drains back into the pan when it's not running because I can see it on the dip stick.
Just having the bearing surface oily isn't enough. That oil between the bearing surfaces has to be under pressure to cushion the contacts. There is no oil pressure while it's still flowing around and filling all of the galleys, bearings, filter, oil cooler and lines. The pressure can only build after everything is full. The engine wears like crazy while that's happening. Pumping it up a little first is a good idea, like what ground crews used to do to the prop type plane engines by rotating the props before start up. |
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74SBBaja
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Joined: July 03, 2020
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Location: TN
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 4:06 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Non Return Valve |
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| Wulfthang wrote: |
| oprn wrote: |
| And that is exactly why large industrial stationary engines that are worth in the tens of thousands of dollars have pre-lube and post post lube systems. The vast majority of normal engine wear happens on start up. |
My Rail has a separate switch for Start and another one for Ignition. I like to hit the Start switch for several seconds before switching on the ignition so that oil will get flowing before it starts.
My engine is a Ford V6 with a very large plate style oil cooler and a separate extra large oil filter. I know for a fact that the oil drains back into the pan when it's not running because I can see it on the dip stick.
Just having the bearing surface oily isn't enough. That oil between the bearing surfaces has to be under pressure to cushion the contacts. There is no oil pressure while it's still flowing around and filling all of the galleys, bearings, filter, oil cooler and lines. The pressure can only build after everything is full. The engine wears like crazy while that's happening. Pumping it up a little first is a good idea, like what ground crews used to do to the prop type plane engines by rotating the props before start up. |
Well shucks, my setup is already like that. I have a separate switch to power my coil to avoid burning it up. (Build in progress). Never thought of doing that. Thanks for the 411.
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sailtexas186548
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Joined: December 01, 2014
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 4:28 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Non Return Valve |
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| Wulfthang wrote: |
Just having the bearing surface oily isn't enough. That oil between the bearing surfaces has to be under pressure to cushion the contacts. |
The hydraulic pressure that prevents the bearing and rotating element from coming in contact is generated by the converging bearing and Journal surfaces which result in a high pressure oil wedge, only a few molecules thick.
You actually don’t “need” oil pressure for the bearing to function, but it is hard/impossible to provide enough flow to feed the bearing and cool it without generating back pressure aka “oil pressure” in the system.
Yes a prelube/accusump is ideal, but cranking u til you see oil pressure and then energizing the ignition is a good method also
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BFB
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:17 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Non Return Valve |
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I doubt the 1 second it takes to have oil pressure causes any more wear than me flogging the hell out of the engine. or any more wear than the guys that say there oil starves when they're off road and go up u steep incline
_________________
Forced induction can overcome a lot of obsticles that gets in it's way
"You are the Engineer and the Mechanic.
Build it your way not the way someone else does it. Their way might not work for you." - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
“ The monkey see monkey do mentality seems to run deep in VW people. "Gene Berg said it was so 30 years ago so thats the way it is" “ - bdkw1 |
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PhillipM
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:25 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Non Return Valve |
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Flogging the engine does barely any damage, high rpms means a strong oil film with full hydrodynamic support, the cam noses are under low load because the valve inertia keeps the spring pressure off the tip, etc.
Like someone already said, startup and cold idling is one of the roughest operating conditions for an engine in terms of wear. |
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oprn
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Posts: 12714
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:45 am Post subject: Re: Oil Non Return Valve |
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| sailtexas186548 wrote: |
The hydraulic pressure that prevents the bearing and rotating element from coming in contact is generated by the converging bearing and Journal surfaces which result in a high pressure oil wedge, only a few molecules thick.
You actually don’t “need” oil pressure for the bearing to function, but it is hard/impossible to provide enough flow to feed the bearing and cool it without generating back pressure aka “oil pressure” in the system. |
^^^This^^^
Oil pressure itself doesn't have a hope in Hades of countering the force of combustion. Like was said above it's the film strength of the oil itself that does that. It's true that there is a bit of oil that remains on the bearings but a couple rotations of the crank eliminates that. It's the job of the oil pump to replenish it. The actual pressure in the system is secondary to there being enough volume to go around to supply the whole system. Oil pressure by itself is just proof that the volume the pump supplies is more that all the bearings in the engine require. Ie: I have 10 psi/1000rpm of excess oil supply.
While cranking the engine until pressure is seen works for the engine, it is hard on starters and batteries. In cold climates where it would do the most good there is a pretty fair chance that the battery will be exhausted before there is oil pressure.
Oil accumulators have been discussed here before. I truly believe they are a viable solution, I just have not put one on a high enough priority list to try it out.
www.carid.com/canton-racing/canton-racing-accusump...07d5b05f57
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Wulfthang
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Joined: August 25, 2018
Posts: 719
Location: Tucson
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:10 am Post subject: Re: Oil Non Return Valve |
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| oprn wrote: |
| sailtexas186548 wrote: |
The hydraulic pressure that prevents the bearing and rotating element from coming in contact is generated by the converging bearing and Journal surfaces which result in a high pressure oil wedge, only a few molecules thick.
You actually don’t “need” oil pressure for the bearing to function, but it is hard/impossible to provide enough flow to feed the bearing and cool it without generating back pressure aka “oil pressure” in the system. |
^^^This^^^
Oil pressure itself doesn't have a hope in Hades of countering the force of combustion. Like was said above it's the film strength of the oil itself that does that. It's true that there is a bit of oil that remains on the bearings but a couple rotations of the crank eliminates that. It's the job of the oil pump to replenish it. The actual pressure in the system is secondary to there being enough volume to go around to supply the whole system. Oil pressure by itself is just proof that the volume the pump supplies is more that all the bearings in the engine require. Ie: I have 10 psi/1000rpm of excess oil supply.
While cranking the engine until pressure is seen works for the engine, it is hard on starters and batteries. In cold climates where it would do the most good there is a pretty fair chance that the battery will be exhausted before there is oil pressure.
Oil accumulators have been discussed here before. I truly believe they are a viable solution, I just have not put one on a high enough priority list to try it out.
www.carid.com/canton-racing/canton-racing-accusump...07d5b05f57 |
All true except I didn't mean that I turn the engine over until I see oil pressure showing on the gauge. I just give it a couple of seconds of Start before I switch on the Run switch. It's just to "prime it" and start stuff flowing.
Yes, the wear on an engine during that first few seconds of start up is a lot more than when you're flogging it. (Within reason!) I built engines, trany's and electrical systems for Kawasaki racing. A sub 10 second 1/4 mile run is "flogging" on a whole new level. It's not uncommon for a pit crew to disassemble the top end of an engine to freshen it up between races. It is very common and just about standard for a pit crew member to be hand (or foot!) cranking a cold engine for five minutes prior to start up. That's to cut down on the start up wear. |
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stevebaz
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Joined: March 14, 2008
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Location: El Monte CA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:20 am Post subject: Re: Oil Non Return Valve |
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| mount the oil filter and oil coolers upside down so they trap and hold oil when shut off. stop gravity in its tracks. I had this problem with a power steering system once. set it up easy to plumb and make sense except when the draining oil overflowed my pump and spread a quart of oil on the floor. re-orientated the components to trap oil and solved the problem. |
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BFB
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:02 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Non Return Valve |
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| PhillipM wrote: |
Flogging the engine does barely any damage, high rpms means a strong oil film with full hydrodynamic support, the cam noses are under low load because the valve inertia keeps the spring pressure off the tip, etc.
Like someone already said, startup and cold idling is one of the roughest operating conditions for an engine in terms of wear. |
exactly my point. yall are straining over something that hardly matters. what? by adding check valves into the oil cooler lines and pre- oiling your vw engine will double or triple its lifespan? this is the off road forum, I think most off road engines have more against them than a second or two or dry start up. and if your engine takes longer than that to get oil , you probably have bigger concerns.
nothing wrong with adding valves and pre-oiling if that's what you wanna do, just seems more appropriate on grandpa's vw that doesn't get driven over 50 mph and gets 40 mpg
_________________
Forced induction can overcome a lot of obsticles that gets in it's way
"You are the Engineer and the Mechanic.
Build it your way not the way someone else does it. Their way might not work for you." - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
“ The monkey see monkey do mentality seems to run deep in VW people. "Gene Berg said it was so 30 years ago so thats the way it is" “ - bdkw1 |
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Wulfthang
Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2018
Posts: 719
Location: Tucson
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:02 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Non Return Valve |
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| richardcraineum wrote: |
| PhillipM wrote: |
Flogging the engine does barely any damage, high rpms means a strong oil film with full hydrodynamic support, the cam noses are under low load because the valve inertia keeps the spring pressure off the tip, etc.
Like someone already said, startup and cold idling is one of the roughest operating conditions for an engine in terms of wear. |
exactly my point. yall are straining over something that hardly matters. what? by adding check valves into the oil cooler lines and pre- oiling your vw engine will double or triple its lifespan? this is the off road forum, I think most off road engines have more against them than a second or two or dry start up. and if your engine takes longer than that to get oil , you probably have bigger concerns.
nothing wrong with adding valves and pre-oiling if that's what you wanna do, just seems more appropriate on grandpa's vw that doesn't get driven over 50 mph and gets 40 mpg |
PSSSST! Did you read the last sentence in that quote? |
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Aerindel
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:56 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Non Return Valve |
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My fuel pump and coil are connected to my oil pressure switch, so I my engine doesn't start, until it has oil pressure, usually takes about six seconds of cranking.
My toyota tundra has a similar system....which makes it take 3-4 seconds of cranking to start, which feels slow for a 'modern' car...but its also an engine known to go 1,000,000 miles.
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oprn
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Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 5:15 am Post subject: Re: Oil Non Return Valve |
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We look at the lifespan of an engine in terms of how many miles it will last when in reality we should be looking at engine lifespan in terms of how many cold starts it has. An engine that does long highway trips and is rarely shut off will last 3 or 4 times longer in terms of miles than a city car that drives 15 city blocks and gets shut off twice a day.
We would have a far better idea of engine wear if we logged the starts and based our maintenance on that.
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We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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BFB
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Joined: November 03, 2014
Posts: 1757
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 11:19 am Post subject: Re: Oil Non Return Valve |
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| Wulfthang wrote: |
| richardcraineum wrote: |
| PhillipM wrote: |
Flogging the engine does barely any damage, high rpms means a strong oil film with full hydrodynamic support, the cam noses are under low load because the valve inertia keeps the spring pressure off the tip, etc.
Like someone already said, startup and cold idling is one of the roughest operating conditions for an engine in terms of wear. |
exactly my point. yall are straining over something that hardly matters. what? by adding check valves into the oil cooler lines and pre- oiling your vw engine will double or triple its lifespan? this is the off road forum, I think most off road engines have more against them than a second or two or dry start up. and if your engine takes longer than that to get oil , you probably have bigger concerns.
nothing wrong with adding valves and pre-oiling if that's what you wanna do, just seems more appropriate on grandpa's vw that doesn't get driven over 50 mph and gets 40 mpg |
PSSSST! Did you read the last sentence in that quote? |
PSSSSST back at ya. did you read my last sentence?
I'm not arguing about dry start causing wear, my point is that yall are trying to apply the average car / daily commuter logic to engines that get run on steep inclines, mud, desert, under water, any number of harsh conditions. so I see worrying about "dry start" as unnecessary.
you don't agree that's fine, we all have our opinions and I'm just stating mine. but don't act like a facebooker towards me because I don't go along with the group.
_________________
Forced induction can overcome a lot of obsticles that gets in it's way
"You are the Engineer and the Mechanic.
Build it your way not the way someone else does it. Their way might not work for you." - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
“ The monkey see monkey do mentality seems to run deep in VW people. "Gene Berg said it was so 30 years ago so thats the way it is" “ - bdkw1 |
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PhillipM
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Joined: January 07, 2010
Posts: 595
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:52 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Non Return Valve |
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The vast majority of which are easily mitigated, cold start damage isn't.
I've done plenty of race engines for off road abuse, wet and dry sump, they all get cranked for a few seconds to build oil pressure before firing for good reason. |
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Wulfthang
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Posts: 719
Location: Tucson
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:09 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Non Return Valve |
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| richardcraineum wrote: |
PSSSSST back at ya. did you read my last sentence?
I'm not arguing about dry start causing wear, my point is that yall are trying to apply the average car / daily commuter logic to engines that get run on steep inclines, mud, desert, under water, any number of harsh conditions. so I see worrying about "dry start" as unnecessary.
you don't agree that's fine, we all have our opinions and I'm just stating mine. but don't act like a facebooker towards me because I don't go along with the group. |
The Ford V6 engine in my street legal rail took me a while to build: Molly coated pistons, lightened lifters, matched ports, balanced pistons and rods, "flowed" water pump, etc. plus all kinds of high performance parts. I have a lot of time and money invested in it.
I run good oil in it and keep it changed, have a massive plate style oil cooler with fan, have a full set of gauges to keep track of what my engine is doing, run a good quality air filter in a housing sealed to the carb neck, use a huge outside mounted oil filter, etc. In other words: I take good care of my engine because I run my Rail in the desert, harsh inclines, mud, underwater and a whole bunch of other places that are tough on engines. The dry start is something that causes wear and I can do something about it. Why not? |
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