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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12688 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 7:44 pm Post subject: Steering box - how much travel? |
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1960 beetle. Shop installed a new steering box, chrome pitman arm, and 2.5" EMPI disc brake drop spindles in 2017. (Large tie rod ends all around.) Box/wheel are centered, and the car was laser-aligned after the work was done.
The installed steering box in the car only has 2.5 turns of travel, less than I'm used to. The bug struggles to navigate parking lots, and has to make 5-point turns frequently. Is 2.5 turns correct for a '60 chassis?
Or was there a bad batch of steering boxes a few years ago?
Thanks!
Robbie _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
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scrivyscriv Samba Electrician
Joined: October 04, 2011 Posts: 2918 Location: Memphis
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Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:22 pm Post subject: Re: Steering box - how much travel? |
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I can’t say for sure since I don’t have a ‘60, but my understanding is the boxes are all pretty much the same, with exception of the 50s. See if it’s hitting the full lock stop on the beam.. are you getting 2-1/2 turns from center both directions? Those TRW boxes have a notoriety about them and a well deserved reputation. Maybe you’ve already seen the TRW tear down topic; but if not, it’s excellent and highly educational.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=660446 _________________ Robert in Memphis
Dünkelgrügen 1967 Java Green bug thread
Engine rebuild thread
If you're ever in the Memphis area, you are welcome to stop by for advice and help. |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12688 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:56 am Post subject: Re: Steering box - how much travel? |
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I plowed through that thread a year or so ago when my friend was disappointed with his TRW box. This one has the usual play, but also severely limits full lock in each direction.
With the tie rods disconnected, the box still limits stop, one full turn and some change each direction from center. 2.5 turns total. The pitman arm does not contact anything. It, and the tires, come inches away from contacting any body or chassis parts.
Everything in my right mind says it's just a box quality issue, but I want to make sure I'm not missing anything early bug specific.
Robbie _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
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www.airschooled.com |
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scrivyscriv Samba Electrician
Joined: October 04, 2011 Posts: 2918 Location: Memphis
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Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:54 am Post subject: Re: Steering box - how much travel? |
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I don’t have a manual going back to 1960.. but here is what I have found fo far:
The 61-65 blue book has this
If the turning radius is too large, grind down the boss.
The 66-69 book also says the same but it also gives a measurement from upper torsion arm to wheel as .4”+- .04”, not sure if that’s the same for king and link pin.
However it also specifies 2.5 turns from full lock, in the chart on the right side. So I don’t know. Is it an aftermarket box or an OG VW?
_________________ Robert in Memphis
Dünkelgrügen 1967 Java Green bug thread
Engine rebuild thread
If you're ever in the Memphis area, you are welcome to stop by for advice and help. |
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EVfun Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012 Posts: 5446 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 1:37 pm Post subject: Re: Steering box - how much travel? |
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airschooled wrote: |
1960 beetle. Shop installed a new steering box, chrome pitman arm, and 2.5" EMPI disc brake drop spindles in 2017. (Large tie rod ends all around.) Box/wheel are centered, and the car was laser-aligned after the work was done.
The installed steering box in the car only has 2.5 turns of travel, less than I'm used to. The bug struggles to navigate parking lots, and has to make 5-point turns frequently. Is 2.5 turns correct for a '60 chassis?
Or was there a bad batch of steering boxes a few years ago?
Thanks!
Robbie |
The stock box for a '60 (worm and sector) should be 2.4 turns, lock to lock. The standard replacement box is a later style worm and roller type and should be 2.6 turns lock to lock. Either way the turning circle should be about 36 feet. For comparison my '04 Tacoma pickup is about 34 1/2 feet.
On king and link pin Bugs (1965 and older) the steering is limited by the front bolts holding the brake baking plate (or disc brake caliper bracket) in place. You should be able to turn left and right until either that bolt hits the link pin carrier, or until the front tire hits the front of the upper trailing arm. _________________
Wildthings wrote: |
As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12688 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:44 am Post subject: Re: Steering box - how much travel? |
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Thanks for both of your advice; I have more to go on now when I see the car again.
Appreciate it!
Robbie _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33882 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2021 11:21 am Post subject: Re: Steering box - how much travel? |
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I never got a chromed joint flange to fit right, gave up and bought used OEM. |
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Erik G Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2002 Posts: 13247 Location: Tejas!
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12688 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:43 pm Post subject: Re: Steering box - how much travel? |
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Got to poke around the car in question today, though no wrenches on hand.
The beam was narrowed 2” according to the owner.
Unless anyone else has other thoughts, I feel like the pitman arm is too short, or the spindle arms are too long for this car… _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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EVfun Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012 Posts: 5446 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:30 pm Post subject: Re: Steering box - how much travel? |
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What is stopping the car from turning farther left or farther right? I've never seen the steering box itself be the limit. _________________
Wildthings wrote: |
As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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evanfrucht Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2016 Posts: 2180 Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
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Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:59 pm Post subject: Re: Steering box - how much travel? |
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Narrowed beams increase the turn radius a fair amount. In other words, it reduces your ability to make a clean getaway in the parking lot _________________ 1967 Bug ( the daily rod )
1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder )
Last edited by evanfrucht on Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33882 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:01 pm Post subject: Re: Steering box - how much travel? |
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Reduce or increase? |
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evanfrucht Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2016 Posts: 2180 Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
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Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:03 pm Post subject: Re: Steering box - how much travel? |
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Was the car driving before. What was changed?
Was the issue not present before? Or is the first time your ever driving this car since it's been redone? _________________ 1967 Bug ( the daily rod )
1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder ) |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26741 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:39 pm Post subject: Re: Steering box - how much travel? |
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Normally the spindles would be the "stop" that limits steering lock angle.
The front most brake backing plate bolt is where the stop is. So, look there and find it.
Or rather look where it "used to be" and you will (probably?) see there is a boss there, since you have aftermarket spindles.
The spindle itself can only pivot so far.
Usually it's about right to keep the wheel or tire from rubbing the grub screws on the trailing arm, or if you have wider wheels then sometimes not enough.
So if it needs to be adjusted you grind a little off, weld a little on, or use a longer bolt as needed. Tho if using a longer bolt you better put a steep bevel on the end so it doesn't rivet itself
If your aftermarket spindles work differently, have different stops, have different ratio, then I guess you will have to figure that out. |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12688 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:09 pm Post subject: Re: Steering box - how much travel? |
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Thanks for all the advice; this is a friend's car who is only casually interested in correcting the problem. I'm taking it as a chance to learn about the earlier Type 1's.
I'll probably see it again next week and poke around for backing plate bolt bosses, though everything being aftermarket tells me it's probably just stackup error. Thanks again for the insight.
Robbie _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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