Author |
Message |
oxsign Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2006 Posts: 607 Location: Sanford, FL
|
Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:47 pm Post subject: Help me brainstorm this issue |
|
|
‘71 Squareback starts, warms up then shuts off and won’t start again for a couple hours. When I say shuts off, I mean it shuts right off like the key was turned off suddenly. I can try to start it again but it’ll just crank and not start. In the last week I have installed all new coil, points, condenser, distributor, cap/rotor & starter. The motor is a 1776 with dual 40s. Maybe bad ignition, relay, something else? Is there a way to test those things?
Ideas?? Thanks for any/all help. _________________ 1971 Squareback, fully bagged, 1776.
Build thread here.....
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
GMendoza Samba Member
Joined: November 15, 2007 Posts: 341 Location: Alta Loma, CA
|
Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:40 pm Post subject: Re: Help me brainstorm this issue |
|
|
Are you getting spark? You can check with a timing light |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Ossipon Samba Member
Joined: May 12, 2021 Posts: 473 Location: KS
|
Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:09 am Post subject: Re: Help me brainstorm this issue |
|
|
Until you said what carbs you had, it reminded me of a problem I had on a 34PICT-3 years ago. It had a loose internal connection on the Electric cutoff switch. It had exactly the same symptoms, but mine would run for a bit longer. Once I replaced the cutoff with a pilot jet, the problem immediately disappeared. My hunch is something in your system cutting off fuel flow. _________________ Ossipon
VWs in my life:
Air
Type 1 - 59, 62, 63, 71 Super 68 KGhia/ Type 2 - 59 Single Cab / Type 3 - 64 Notch
Water
GTI 83, Jetta 81, 85, 87, 91 TDI, 98 TDI, 09 / New Beetle 99 / SportWagen 05, 13 / Tiguan 18 / T3 92 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21513 Location: Oklahoma City
|
Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:24 pm Post subject: Re: Help me brainstorm this issue |
|
|
Check your fuel tank venting to make sure you are not pulling a vacuum.
Ray |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Qldelsie Samba Member
Joined: September 22, 2019 Posts: 518 Location: Queensland Australia
|
Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:30 pm Post subject: Re: Help me brainstorm this issue |
|
|
He said "it shuts off suddenly, like the key has been switched off".
Surely a fuel restriction would cause it to splutter a bit before it died ?
Sounds more like electrical to me.........
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21513 Location: Oklahoma City
|
Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:56 am Post subject: Re: Help me brainstorm this issue |
|
|
Qldelsie wrote: |
He said "it shuts off suddenly, like the key has been switched off".
Surely a fuel restriction would cause it to splutter a bit before it died ?
Sounds more like electrical to me.........
|
Good point agree......slowly lowering fuel levels in the float chamber "should" cause run quality issues.....though the cut off from tank vacuum is a little more odd than just a general restriction like a fuel filter. Unless the pump has good check valves once vacuum hits a certain level it can back siphon and it kills it quick.
But on that note.....it really sounds electrical and heat related. Getting hot and losing ground.....idle solenoid etc. Ray |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22413 Location: Kimball, Mi
|
Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:08 pm Post subject: Re: Help me brainstorm this issue |
|
|
raygreenwood wrote: |
Qldelsie wrote: |
He said "it shuts off suddenly, like the key has been switched off".
Surely a fuel restriction would cause it to splutter a bit before it died ?
Sounds more like electrical to me.........
|
Good point agree......slowly lowering fuel levels in the float chamber "should" cause run quality issues.....though the cut off from tank vacuum is a little more odd than just a general restriction like a fuel filter. Unless the pump has good check valves once vacuum hits a certain level it can back siphon and it kills it quick.
But on that note.....it really sounds electrical and heat related. Getting hot and losing ground.....idle solenoid etc. Ray |
Since it's a 71, could the ignition switch be going bad? It is a 1 year only part. Could the plug in connector be trying to fall off? _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
veedweeb Samba Member
Joined: May 23, 2018 Posts: 150 Location: Greater Manchester UK
|
Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:57 am Post subject: Re: Help me brainstorm this issue |
|
|
I had a similar problem with my old Square a few years ago.
After a lot of searching, I found that the trigger wire from the coil for the rev counter that I'd fitted was intermittently shorting out on the bodywork and that was just shutting the ignition off instantly. _________________ 1963 Turbo WBX Bug
2000 Sedan Clasico Mexican Bug
1972 Type 3 Squareback |
|
Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21513 Location: Oklahoma City
|
Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:21 am Post subject: Re: Help me brainstorm this issue |
|
|
Had to re-read for clues.
The other issue .....is the fact that it....... "wont start again for a couple of hours".....
If this is consistent.....and it ALWAYS starts again after a couple of hours......I am still going back to a fuel problem and not an electrical problem.
If it were electrical....like a ground heating up or vibrating until it breaks.....still possible.....but doubt that it would consistently re-start like clockwork.
Either its flooding.....and takes a couple of hours to evaporate fuel
Its choked off with silt in the tank pick up tube area.....not uncommon and it can take a,while for line fuel slowly flowing back to rinse silt out of the way.....
Or you are pulling a vacuum on the tank.
Try these things:
Remove the gas tank cap, start snd warm up. If the problem disappears.....ots a tank venting issue. If it does not help......try pouring a little fuel into both carbs and try to re-start. If it works.....your float heights are wrong, fuel is getting restricted to the carbs (could be silt, could be the pump, could be a range of carb problems).
If that does not help....look down the top of the carbs to see ir they ard wet and pull a spark plug from each side and see if they are wet.
Ray |
|
Back to top |
|
|
oxsign Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2006 Posts: 607 Location: Sanford, FL
|
Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:12 pm Post subject: Re: Help me brainstorm this issue |
|
|
Really sorry for not replying here. I never got any notifications of your replies, sorry.
So after all this it turns out to be a fuel issue. More specifically, the lining/seal the previous mechanic did. As you can see from the pix, it’s just coming apart inside and clogging things up.
Today I got a 2gal can and a new pump. I ran a hose from the pump to the cab and it ran flawlessly. Drove it around the block a couple times and had zero issues. So today I drained and removed the tank. I’ve reached out to a couple people in the FS section but no one seems to want to ship a tank to FL. I may look in to having a fuel cell made for it if I can’t find anything local.
_________________ 1971 Squareback, fully bagged, 1776.
Build thread here.....
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22413 Location: Kimball, Mi
|
Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:02 pm Post subject: Re: Help me brainstorm this issue |
|
|
oxsign wrote: |
Really sorry for not replying here. I never got any notifications of your replies, sorry.
So after all this it turns out to be a fuel issue. More specifically, the lining/seal the previous mechanic did. As you can see from the pix, it’s just coming apart inside and clogging things up.
Today I got a 2gal can and a new pump. I ran a hose from the pump to the cab and it ran flawlessly. Drove it around the block a couple times and had zero issues. So today I drained and removed the tank. I’ve reached out to a couple people in the FS section but no one seems to want to ship a tank to FL. I may look in to having a fuel cell made for it if I can’t find anything local.
|
Well, that'll do it. It's also why it's not recommended to try and seal these tanks with the tank sealers that are available today. Some of today's fuels aren't compatible with the tank sealers. Just something to keep in mind.
If you aren't worried about under frunk space, you could go with an aluminum off road tank, if nobody will ship you a stock one. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
oxsign Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2006 Posts: 607 Location: Sanford, FL
|
Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:03 pm Post subject: Re: Help me brainstorm this issue |
|
|
Bobnotch wrote: |
Well, that'll do it. It's also why it's not recommended to try and seal these tanks with the tank sealers that are available today. Some of today's fuels aren't compatible with the tank sealers. Just something to keep in mind.
If you aren't worried about under frunk space, you could go with an aluminum off road tank, if nobody will ship you a stock one. |
it was something he suggested be done and not being sure about it I went with it. That was my mistake unfortunately. I’m in talks with a couple shops to see about having a custom cell made to at least fit in the factory location and use the factory sending unit. Hopefully I’ll know something by next week sometime. I planned on raising the tank 1.5”-2” for clearance underneath with the bagged beam. So that’s something I can work in to the custom cell now. Or at least a notched section for the bag/lever. _________________ 1971 Squareback, fully bagged, 1776.
Build thread here.....
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7537 Location: Santa Cruz
|
Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:31 am Post subject: Re: Help me brainstorm this issue |
|
|
Many radiator shops will boil out a fuel tank.
Or you could fill it with paint remover and nuts/bolts and slosh it around or something?
With the right application of heat/chemicals/agitation the stuff will come out. _________________ Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
oxsign Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2006 Posts: 607 Location: Sanford, FL
|
Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:06 am Post subject: Re: Help me brainstorm this issue |
|
|
Clatter wrote: |
Many radiator shops will boil out a fuel tank.
Or you could fill it with paint remover and nuts/bolts and slosh it around or something?
With the right application of heat/chemicals/agitation the stuff will come out. |
Someone local mentioned something about a radiator shop yesterday. I'll have to look in to that this week and see. _________________ 1971 Squareback, fully bagged, 1776.
Build thread here.....
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Erik G Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2002 Posts: 13271 Location: Tejas!
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21513 Location: Oklahoma City
|
Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:48 am Post subject: Re: Help me brainstorm this issue |
|
|
If it has no actual holes in it......have it caustic washed at a radiator shop which will remove all of the liner and varnish deposits. Then acid wash it. That will literally dissolve all rust down to metal. If it still has no leaks or pinholes....proceed to next stage.
Then let it flash rust for a couple of days after rinsing it out. Then pour in a quart of Ospho or similar about a pint at a time. Fully agitate to cover every surface . Drain it. Do not rinse it. Let it dry for a full 24 hours someplace warm. This converts the surface rust to black iron phosphate
Done.
Keep it full of fuel and it will likely not rust again until after you are dead from old age.
Well established method.
Ray |
|
Back to top |
|
|
oxsign Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2006 Posts: 607 Location: Sanford, FL
|
Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:58 am Post subject: Re: Help me brainstorm this issue |
|
|
raygreenwood wrote: |
If it has no actual holes in it......have it caustic washed at a radiator shop which will remove all of the liner and varnish deposits. Then acid wash it. That will literally dissolve all rust down to metal. If it still has no leaks or pinholes....proceed to next stage.
Then let it flash rust for a couple of days after rinsing it out. Then pour in a quart of Ospho or similar about a pint at a time. Fully agitate to cover every surface . Drain it. Do not rinse it. Let it dry for a full 24 hours someplace warm. This converts the surface rust to black iron phosphate
Done.
Keep it full of fuel and it will likely not rust again until after you are dead from old age.
Well established method.
Ray |
It actually is still in pretty good condition. I was just concerned with trying to do anything with it for fear of "leftovers" in there causing more issues down the line. his sounds like a pretty good method and I do still have about 1.5gal of Ospho left from doing the floors. I may have to give this a try as well and see how it turns out. _________________ 1971 Squareback, fully bagged, 1776.
Build thread here.....
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|