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Hokie87 Samba Member
Joined: May 27, 2010 Posts: 280 Location: Richmond, VA
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Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:45 pm Post subject: Engine fire now I need electrical recovery |
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I had an engine fire (brass fitting on the fuel pump pulled out). Thankfully, I had a fire extinguisher with me so not much damage other than to the electrical.
I've repaired/replaced all the electrical stuff in the engine bay (coil, distributor, wires, cutoff solenoid, oil pressure switch and melted wires.
I also noticed that I couldn't get my key out of the ignition. Troubleshooting this issue showed me that a short in the engine bay fried the black wire running from fuse 2 to the coil, the black wire running from fuse 1 to the ignition switch and the plastic connector for the ignition under the steering wheel.
My questions are:
1. Can I just run a new black wire from the coil to fuse 2 or could the heat from the melted wire have damaged other wires in the main harness requiring replacement of the entire main harness?
2. Should I put an inline fuse at the fuse box for the wire running from fuse 2 to the coil since this is unfused in the stock configuration and any short at the cutoff solenoid, choke or reverse light would replicate this problem. |
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mondshine Samba Member
Joined: October 27, 2006 Posts: 2765 Location: The World's Motor Capital
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Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2021 8:40 pm Post subject: Re: Engine fire now I need electrical recovery |
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If you have the time and patience, the best practice would be to strip the jacket from the main wiring harness and examine all of the wires inside.
If that is too much trouble, just run a new 14 AWG wire alongside the main harness.
You noticed that the ignition circuit is not protected by a fuse, as it is connected to the "supply side" of the fuse panel.
This is the inline fuse that I used to protect the ignition circuit on my '74:
The ignition switch connector plug itself might be a little hard to get; (111 953 631).
I think mine came from Riga, Latvia!
Anyway, here's a sketch of the ignition switch connector plug.
Use a small jeweler's screwdriver or similar to flatten the locking tab so that the individual connectors can be pulled out.
A quality crimping tool for open barrel terminals, and quality terminals with locking tabs (I like Hella terminals) is very helpful.
On the carburetor...
Keep in mind that "securing" the stock brass carburetor inlet tube with safety wire, as seen in a popular photo will do absolutely nothing to guarantee a seal between the brass tube and the carburetor top.
If you want to fix this permanently, use a 1/16 NPT X 1/4" hose barb.
It is not even necessary to drill the carburetor top to tap it; the metal is very soft, and with the brass tube removed, the bore size is just about right.
1/16 NPT taps and fittings might be hard to find at the corner hardware store, but they're easy to purchase online.
A hose barb fitting threaded into the carburetor top, (sealed with Loctite or similar) will never leak or pull out unexpectedly.
Good luck, Mondshine
Good luck, Mondshine
Last edited by mondshine on Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Hokie87 Samba Member
Joined: May 27, 2010 Posts: 280 Location: Richmond, VA
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Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2021 6:40 am Post subject: Re: Engine fire now I need electrical recovery |
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Thanks, Mondshine. I notice that you put the in-line fuse on the input side of fuse 1 rather than fuse 2. This would require a much bigger fuse, I think, but makes the location easier.
I am having trouble finding the plug connector so thanks for the lead. M&T has the whole harness with the plug but I don't need all that. |
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mondshine Samba Member
Joined: October 27, 2006 Posts: 2765 Location: The World's Motor Capital
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Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:41 am Post subject: Re: Engine fire now I need electrical recovery |
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The input sides of fuses 1 and 2 are connected. Nothing connected to either one of those terminals is protected.
The "bridge" between the input sides of fuses 1 and 2 only serves as a junction point. It is the output sides of the fuses that are connected to various loads; in the case of fuses 1 and 2, brake lights, wipers, horn, etc. (all of the stuff that only works with the ignition switched on).
The only exception is the long black wire that runs to the back of the car to coil terminal 15.
I suppose the VW engineers did not want the car disabled for the lack of a 10¢ fuse (better to cook the wire instead).
By the way, you will find the black ignition wire on old VW's either totally or partially cooked as often as not. My '74 Thing came with a heat-distorted plug at the ignition switch. I lived with it for 37 years until I finally bought a new one (from Riga, Latvia). Then, that car was totaled shortly thereafter; I kept the ignition switch plug!)
Good luck, Mondshine |
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Hokie87 Samba Member
Joined: May 27, 2010 Posts: 280 Location: Richmond, VA
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Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2021 1:06 pm Post subject: Re: Engine fire now I need electrical recovery |
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Understood. The black wire to the input side of fuse 1 is a true input -- from the battery to fuse 1 via the ignition switch. The "input" side of fuse 2 is not a true input but the unfused load to the coil terminal 15.
I plan to put an in-line fuse on the wire from fuse 2 to the coil and to move the wire that goes from fuse 1 to the speedometer lights and vibrator to the fused side of fuse 1. I can't imagine that the speedo lights would draw enough additional current to blow that fuse. |
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mondshine Samba Member
Joined: October 27, 2006 Posts: 2765 Location: The World's Motor Capital
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Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:51 am Post subject: Re: Engine fire now I need electrical recovery |
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In stock form, the input sides if fuses 1 and 2 receive their power directly from the ignition switch.
So on my car, those two terminals are protected by the additional inline fuse.
Fuses 1 and 2 are 8 amp each, which is adequate for the circuits that they power.
My additional inline fuse; between the ignition switch and fuses 1 and 2 inputs is a 20 amp (greater than the combined capacity of fuses 1 and 2).
That way, if the wiring to any of the Terminal 15 devices (brake lights, horn, wipers, fuel gauge, etc.) is overloaded or shorted, one of the 8 amp fuses will blow. The only fuse in line to the coil 15 is the 20 amp inline fuse.
In the case of a direct short in the coil 15 wire (like what happened in your fire) a 20 amp fuse will blow as quickly as a 2 amp or a 40 amp fuse; immediately.
Good luck with your project, Mondshine |
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Dougster43 Samba Member
Joined: May 11, 2018 Posts: 182 Location: Texas
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Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:32 am Post subject: Re: Engine fire now I need electrical recovery |
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I agree 100% with Mondshine about checking the whole harness. On mine, a bad coil caused the wire between the ignition switch and the coil to overheat and melted some of the insulation. Fortunately I did not have a fire.
I cut the harness open and found one other wire that had been damaged inside. I replaced both wires and added a few extra as well to clean things up. Not too difficult of a task, more time consuming that anything else. Better to be safe than sorry.
I’m glad the fire wasn’t worse. Thank I’ll take a better look at the line on my fuel pump! |
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Hokie87 Samba Member
Joined: May 27, 2010 Posts: 280 Location: Richmond, VA
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Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:04 pm Post subject: Re: Engine fire now I need electrical recovery |
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Dougster43 wrote: |
I’ll take a better look at the line on my fuel pump! |
On mine the pressed in brass output line pulled out.
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mondshine Samba Member
Joined: October 27, 2006 Posts: 2765 Location: The World's Motor Capital
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Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:35 pm Post subject: Re: Engine fire now I need electrical recovery |
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I was using one of those square top Pierburgs.
After some vapor lock problems on my trip to the last Kubel Treffen, I switched to a Carter electric pump; mounted up front.
So far... so good.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=757944 |
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Hokie87 Samba Member
Joined: May 27, 2010 Posts: 280 Location: Richmond, VA
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Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:06 am Post subject: Re: Engine fire now I need electrical recovery |
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Wow, you do nice work. I have a similar setup in my Type 3 but not mounted nearly as well and using the clackity-clack type pump. Since my engine is out of the Thing, now would be a good time to copy your setup. Also, the Blazecut is already installed so this hopefully won't happen again. |
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markie61 Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2005 Posts: 583 Location: Northern Virginia
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Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:32 am Post subject: Re: Engine fire now I need electrical recovery |
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I bought a '72 Super that had an engine fire. Quickly realized that in addition to the engine bay wires the main harness from front to back had melted through most of the other wires - multiple crossovers of uninsulated copper. I ended up replacing everything from the fuse box on back. _________________ Whut is that-there Thang!?
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Chicks dig my Thing - so what if it's little and yellow...!? |
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doublecanister Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2008 Posts: 1184 Location: Richmond, Va
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Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:12 am Post subject: Re: Engine fire now I need electrical recovery |
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Just to mention I had a electrical issue quite a while back myself and thank goodness it didn't cause a fire.
The "black cigar" shaped reverse light fuse block that sits behind/to the right of the carb, the "hot" wire to the coil, the base of the spade connector was sticking out of the black plastic case and touched a tab on the fan shroud and shorted out while driving (had just took a sharp S curve) it smoked and cut the engine off and burned up the wire on the hot side.
Since i've added some protection to that to hopefully keep that from happening again but something that simple (it was a 1/16th of an inch exposed spade connector) and that's all it took.
Hokie87's unfortunate incident has inspired me to the blazecut install, I'm going to try to work on that this weekend if time allows and get mine installed too. I need to drive the THING.
T _________________ ****************************************
2020 - Mustang Eco Boost [High Performance]
1973 - Thing
1966 - Mustang GT- Fastback
1951 - Ford F1 pickup Flathead V8 |
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mondshine Samba Member
Joined: October 27, 2006 Posts: 2765 Location: The World's Motor Capital
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Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:28 am Post subject: Re: Engine fire now I need electrical recovery |
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Tom-
You southern boys are fortunate in that you get to drive your Things year 'round.
Here in Michigan, it's 32º outside right now. My Thing is "in for the season".
Maybe by April Fools Day 2022, I can take my Thing out without freezing my thing off.
Good luck with the Blaze Cut, Mondshine |
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doublecanister Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2008 Posts: 1184 Location: Richmond, Va
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Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:08 pm Post subject: Re: Engine fire now I need electrical recovery |
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Hey Gary,
LOL!
If the "fancy heater" in your 73' is working you may be surprised.
I know mine will cook my right foot pretty good, even makes hot water if I have a bottle in the console!
T _________________ ****************************************
2020 - Mustang Eco Boost [High Performance]
1973 - Thing
1966 - Mustang GT- Fastback
1951 - Ford F1 pickup Flathead V8 |
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Hokie87 Samba Member
Joined: May 27, 2010 Posts: 280 Location: Richmond, VA
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Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: Engine fire now I need electrical recovery |
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Follow up question: the heat from the engine fire melted the little grommets that hold the flaps in the air cleaner. The air cleaner is fine but I need to replace the grommets and can't find a source other than for 66-68 years which are smaller. Does anyone know of a source for these?
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doublecanister Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2008 Posts: 1184 Location: Richmond, Va
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Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:27 pm Post subject: Re: Engine fire now I need electrical recovery |
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Hey Hokie87,
maybe check with Mike @ Thingparts.com?
I don't know if I've ever seen them for sale as a replacement part myself,
but he may can help.
Plan b; find a spare air breather assembly on the cheap for parts?
T _________________ ****************************************
2020 - Mustang Eco Boost [High Performance]
1973 - Thing
1966 - Mustang GT- Fastback
1951 - Ford F1 pickup Flathead V8 |
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Hokie87 Samba Member
Joined: May 27, 2010 Posts: 280 Location: Richmond, VA
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Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:43 am Post subject: Re: Engine fire now I need electrical recovery |
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Thanks. Mike was able to help me out. |
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doublecanister Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2008 Posts: 1184 Location: Richmond, Va
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Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:42 pm Post subject: Re: Engine fire now I need electrical recovery |
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Hokie87 wrote: |
Thanks. Mike was able to help me out. |
Cool glad you found something.
T _________________ ****************************************
2020 - Mustang Eco Boost [High Performance]
1973 - Thing
1966 - Mustang GT- Fastback
1951 - Ford F1 pickup Flathead V8 |
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