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FL-Frank
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2015
Posts: 823
Location: Jupiter, Florida
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 Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:53 pm Post subject: Excessive Tire Wear |
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1967 Beetle.
Original VW 15” rims.
Michelin XWX tires with 6,000 miles on them. All 4 wheels were balanced when the new tires were mounted.
20 psi front, 28 psi rear. Stock ride height.
Entire front end rebuilt 6,000 miles ago…new ball joints, tie rods, steering damper, steering box, shocks, sway bar, etc.
Front end was checked and aligned 5,900 miles ago by a local alignment shop. Unfortunately, they didn’t provide a pre or post alignment print out.
Car tracks straight with no pulling or drifting, steering wheel sits straight and returns to center properly.
Both rear tires and the front left tire show very little, even wear. However, the right front tire from the center of the tire to the outer edge…the tread is completely gone. 
Am I correct in thinking that the issue is most likely too much toe in on the right front?
_________________
“Tinker Toy” 1967 Savannah Beige Beetle Sedan...........Mostly Original Survivor
“Fritz” 1964 Gulf Blue Karmann Ghia Coupe...Complete Pan-Off Restoration SOLD
Last edited by FL-Frank on Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:25 am; edited 2 times in total |
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KTPhil 
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34003
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:05 pm Post subject: Re: Excessive Tire Wear |
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Toe is a function of the pair of wheels, so that's not it.
Camber is adjustable, and may be off on the right front. Stock, the front tires have positive camber (tops are farther apart than the bottoms, looking from in front of the car). The rear may have a slight negative camber.
Roll it gently in a parking lot, and then walk 20-30 feet in front of the car. Examine the tilt of the front tires. Are they the same? Or is the right front tilted more outward at the top?
A sloppy shop may not set camber right, and then adjust toe to compensate, causing the wear issues you are seeing. |
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FL-Frank
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2015
Posts: 823
Location: Jupiter, Florida
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| Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:21 pm Post subject: Re: Excessive Tire Wear |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
Toe is a function of the pair of wheels, so that's not it.
Camber is adjustable, and may be off on the right front. Stock, the front tires have positive camber (tops are farther apart than the bottoms, looking from in front of the car). The rear may have a slight negative camber.
Roll it gently in a parking lot, and then walk 20-30 feet in front of the car. Examine the tilt of the front tires. Are they the same? Or is the right front tilted more outward at the top?
A sloppy shop may not set camber right, and then adjust toe to compensate, causing the wear issues you are seeing. |
Thanks for the advice!
Rather than attempting to find a local shop to check and align it correctly, I’m thinking maybe I’ll try to check and adjust the front camber and toe myself. For toe, I’d use the string method. For camber, I’d try using this tool that I’ve seen on several YouTube videos.
Thoughts?
_________________
“Tinker Toy” 1967 Savannah Beige Beetle Sedan...........Mostly Original Survivor
“Fritz” 1964 Gulf Blue Karmann Ghia Coupe...Complete Pan-Off Restoration SOLD |
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FL-Frank
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2015
Posts: 823
Location: Jupiter, Florida
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| Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:29 pm Post subject: Re: Excessive Tire Wear |
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And this 36mm wrench for the camber adjusters?
_________________
“Tinker Toy” 1967 Savannah Beige Beetle Sedan...........Mostly Original Survivor
“Fritz” 1964 Gulf Blue Karmann Ghia Coupe...Complete Pan-Off Restoration SOLD |
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sjbartnik
Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 5994
Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:31 pm Post subject: Re: Excessive Tire Wear |
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It's pretty easy to do toe and camber adjustments yourself with the right tools and lots of patience.
You also need a flat & level surface.
It's kind of a pain to do toe without having a rack or a pit because you have to raise the front end to make your tie rod adjustments, then measure again etc etc til you get it right, then adjust more after a test drive to make sure you steering wheel is still straight.
I have had success with the toe plates & camber gauge from Tenhulzen Automotive
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1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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mukluk
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2012
Posts: 7023
Location: Clyde, TX
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| Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:58 pm Post subject: Re: Excessive Tire Wear |
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Good advice has been given already, but I'd also like to mention the issue could be caused by the rear alignment being off as explained below.
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1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga" |
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FL-Frank
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2015
Posts: 823
Location: Jupiter, Florida
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| Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:17 pm Post subject: Re: Excessive Tire Wear |
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| sjbartnik wrote: |
It's pretty easy to do toe and camber adjustments yourself with the right tools and lots of patience.
You also need a flat & level surface.
It's kind of a pain to do toe without having a rack or a pit because you have to raise the front end to make your tie rod adjustments, then measure again etc etc til you get it right, then adjust more after a test drive to make sure you steering wheel is still straight.
I have had success with the toe plates & camber gauge from Tenhulzen Automotive |
I have the flat and level surface, plenty of time, and always looking for ways to improve my level of patience😊
I ordered a pair of Tenhulzen toe plates to use in conjunction with the string method for checking and adjusting toe.
For camber I’m planning to use the gauge and wrench pictured in my previous post.
Camber first, then toe, correct?
_________________
“Tinker Toy” 1967 Savannah Beige Beetle Sedan...........Mostly Original Survivor
“Fritz” 1964 Gulf Blue Karmann Ghia Coupe...Complete Pan-Off Restoration SOLD |
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sjbartnik
Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 5994
Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:25 pm Post subject: Re: Excessive Tire Wear |
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| FL-Frank wrote: |
Camber first, then toe, correct? |
Yes and before you do any of that, make sure everything in the front end is good, no play in ball joints, tie rod ends, wheel bearings are good, steering box is tight to the beam and adjusted properly.
_________________
1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34003
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:18 pm Post subject: Re: Excessive Tire Wear |
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And check the rear, since front and rear can affect each other, as posted above.
Anyone know if the typical inclinometer built into phones good enough for setting camber?
People have used it for rear spring plate angle. |
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rcooled
Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2008
Posts: 2504
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:24 pm Post subject: Re: Excessive Tire Wear |
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| sjbartnik wrote: |
| It's kind of a pain to do toe without having a rack or a pit because you have to raise the front end to make your tie rod adjustments... |
If you remove the gas tank, you'll have easy access to the tie rod adjustments. Remove the tank and spare tire, then place about 70lbs of weight in the spare tire well. A couple bags of sand or water softener salt will take the place of a nearly-full tank of gas and the spare.
| FL-Frank wrote: |
| I ordered a pair of Tenhulzen toe plates to use in conjunction with the string method for checking and adjusting toe. |
I know you've already ordered the plates, but as an FYI for others setting toe by the parallel-string method, here's an alternative: Sandwich a folded-up 1-2 mil thick plastic trash bag between two one-foot square pieces of corrugated cardboard, then place one of these under each front tire. This'll reduce the friction between the tire and ground enough to make an accurate toe adjustment.
I've used this gauge ↑ to set camber and it works quite well. Just be sure to establish a '0' baseline by placing the gauge against an edge that's known to be exactly 90° vertical from your working surface before measuring the camber angle.
_________________
'63 Ragtop (current)
'65 Ghia coupe (totaled)
'67 Ghia convertible (current)
'69.5 Ghia convertible and
'62, '63, '65, '69 Bugs (all long gone) |
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FL-Frank
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2015
Posts: 823
Location: Jupiter, Florida
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:16 am Post subject: Re: Excessive Tire Wear |
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| rcooled wrote: |
| sjbartnik wrote: |
| It's kind of a pain to do toe without having a rack or a pit because you have to raise the front end to make your tie rod adjustments... |
If you remove the gas tank, you'll have easy access to the tie rod adjustments. Remove the tank and spare tire, then place about 70lbs of weight in the spare tire well. A couple bags of sand or water softener salt will take the place of a nearly-full tank of gas and the spare.
| FL-Frank wrote: |
| I ordered a pair of Tenhulzen toe plates to use in conjunction with the string method for checking and adjusting toe. |
I know you've already ordered the plates, but as an FYI for others setting toe by the parallel-string method, here's an alternative: Sandwich a folded-up 1-2 mil thick plastic trash bag between two one-foot square pieces of corrugated cardboard, then place one of these under each front tire. This'll reduce the friction between the tire and ground enough to make an accurate toe adjustment.
I've used this gauge ↑ to set camber and it works quite well. Just be sure to establish a '0' baseline by placing the gauge against an edge that's known to be exactly 90° vertical from your working surface before measuring the camber angle. |
Thanks for the tips regarding removing the fuel tank and spare to allow access to the tie rods from above and placing cardboard/plastic sandwiches under the tires.
Regarding using this camber gauge…after establishing the 0 baseline, would removing the wheels and sticking the gauge to the brake drums work properly?And, can the camber angle be read and adjusted correctly while the wheels are off and with jack stands placed under the front beam?
_________________
“Tinker Toy” 1967 Savannah Beige Beetle Sedan...........Mostly Original Survivor
“Fritz” 1964 Gulf Blue Karmann Ghia Coupe...Complete Pan-Off Restoration SOLD |
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FL-Frank
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2015
Posts: 823
Location: Jupiter, Florida
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:56 am Post subject: Re: Excessive Tire Wear |
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The Tenhulzen toe plates I ordered delivered this morning, so I just finished measuring total toe with…
car on level and flat garage floor, rolled it fore and aft 5 feet, jounced the front suspension, parking brake engaged, steering wheel centered, and the fuel tank 3/4 full.
Current Total Toe In + 1.25” 
(This tells me all I need to know about the professional alignment shop I took it to last spring )
Based on everything I’ve read, optimum is 1/16” to 1/4” Total Toe In., correct?
Next I’ll be checking the current camber settings, and adjusting if needed to get 1/8* Negative per side, correct? Also, Can I do this accurately with the front wheels off, the magnetic gauge stuck to the brake drums, and with jack stands under the front beam?
Once I get the camber set, I’ll set up the strings so I can measure and adjust the toe equally on both sides. I’ll probably follow the previous suggestion and remove the fuel tank and spare, and add 75 pounds to the front so I can easily access the tie rods from above.
Thanks in advance for advice and recommendations 
_________________
“Tinker Toy” 1967 Savannah Beige Beetle Sedan...........Mostly Original Survivor
“Fritz” 1964 Gulf Blue Karmann Ghia Coupe...Complete Pan-Off Restoration SOLD
Last edited by FL-Frank on Sun Dec 05, 2021 9:21 am; edited 1 time in total |
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MrGoodtunes
Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2012
Posts: 851
Location: South Florida
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:35 pm Post subject: Re: Excessive Tire Wear |
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| FL-Frank wrote: |
| ... Next I’ll be checking the current camber settings, and adjusting if needed to get 1/8* Negative per side, correct? ... |
I don't think so, in fact ...
| KTPhil wrote: |
| ... Camber is adjustable, and may be off on the right front. Stock, the front tires have positive camber (tops are farther apart than the bottoms, looking from in front of the car). The rear may have a slight negative camber ... |
| FL-Frank wrote: |
| ... Also, Can I do this accurately with the front wheels off, the magnetic gauge stuck to the brake drums, and with jack stands under the front beam? ... |
Of course you can do it that way if you wish; however, what really matters is where camber's at while you're driving down the road, with wheels on. Should be the same in theory, but weight on wheels may cause some parts to stress a bit or wear to show itself. |
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rcooled
Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2008
Posts: 2504
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:27 pm Post subject: Re: Excessive Tire Wear |
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| FL-Frank wrote: |
| Regarding using this camber gauge…after establishing the 0 baseline, would removing the wheels and sticking the gauge to the brake drums work properly? And, can the camber angle be read and adjusted correctly while the wheels are off and with jack stands placed under the front beam? |
Yes, the camber can be set with the car up on jacks and the wheels off. Stick the gauge to the 6:00 or 12:00 position on the brake drum.
| Quote: |
| Based on everything I’ve read, optimum is 1/16” to 1/4” Total Toe In., correct? |
Yes, that's the correct range. 1/8" total is the optimal setting.
| Quote: |
| Next I’ll be checking the current camber settings, and adjusting if needed to get 1/8* Negative per side, correct? |
Camber is measured in degrees, and the markings on the gauge are also in degrees. The range is .17° to .8° POSITIVE camber per side ( \----/ )
_________________
'63 Ragtop (current)
'65 Ghia coupe (totaled)
'67 Ghia convertible (current)
'69.5 Ghia convertible and
'62, '63, '65, '69 Bugs (all long gone) |
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FL-Frank
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Joined: August 08, 2015
Posts: 823
Location: Jupiter, Florida
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rcooled
Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2008
Posts: 2504
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:26 pm Post subject: Re: Excessive Tire Wear |
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| FL-Frank wrote: |
| This is where I saw the camber and toe specs that, according to wcfvw69, deliver little to no tire wear… |
wcfvw69 is a stand-up guy and very knowledgeable.
That being said, the specs I referenced are straight from the official VW service manual and I've used them to set the alignment on my '67 Karmann Ghia, which has the same type of ball joint front axle as your Beetle. This car still tracks straight & true and exhibits no unusual tire wear, even after ten years of driving.
Just as an FYI, caster is adjusted by adding shims in between the axle tube and the frame head...you shouldn't need to make any changes to it for a stock front end set-up.
_________________
'63 Ragtop (current)
'65 Ghia coupe (totaled)
'67 Ghia convertible (current)
'69.5 Ghia convertible and
'62, '63, '65, '69 Bugs (all long gone) |
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34003
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:51 pm Post subject: Re: Excessive Tire Wear |
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| Due to toe and also camber differences between the front and rear (especially on swing axle cars), rotating tires front to rear evens our tire wear on the edges. |
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FL-Frank
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2015
Posts: 823
Location: Jupiter, Florida
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:17 pm Post subject: Re: Excessive Tire Wear |
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| rcooled wrote: |
| FL-Frank wrote: |
| This is where I saw the camber and toe specs that, according to wcfvw69, deliver little to no tire wear… |
wcfvw69 is a stand-up guy and very knowledgeable.
That being said, the specs I referenced are straight from the official VW service manual and I've used them to set the alignment on my '67 Karmann Ghia, which has the same type of ball joint front axle as your Beetle. This car still tracks straight & true and exhibits no unusual tire wear, even after ten years of driving.
Just as an FYI, caster is adjusted by adding shims in between the axle tube and the frame head...you shouldn't need to make any changes to it for a stock front end set-up. |
Thank you, I think I’ll go with the VW service manual specs then. And BTW, I installed a pair of caster shims last spring just prior to bringing the car to the alignment shop. Wondering if the caster shims may have caused the excessive wear on the one tire?
_________________
“Tinker Toy” 1967 Savannah Beige Beetle Sedan...........Mostly Original Survivor
“Fritz” 1964 Gulf Blue Karmann Ghia Coupe...Complete Pan-Off Restoration SOLD |
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FL-Frank
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2015
Posts: 823
Location: Jupiter, Florida
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:40 pm Post subject: Re: Excessive Tire Wear |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
| Due to toe and also camber differences between the front and rear (especially on swing axle cars), rotating tires front to rear evens our tire wear on the edges. |
Good advice, I need to be sure to include tire rotation in my 3,000 mile routine maintenance program…checking/adjusting valves, changing oil, adjusting brakes, lubing the the front beam, and checking/adjusting tire pressure😊
_________________
“Tinker Toy” 1967 Savannah Beige Beetle Sedan...........Mostly Original Survivor
“Fritz” 1964 Gulf Blue Karmann Ghia Coupe...Complete Pan-Off Restoration SOLD |
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rcooled
Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2008
Posts: 2504
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:00 pm Post subject: Re: Excessive Tire Wear |
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| FL-Frank wrote: |
| I installed a pair of caster shims last spring just prior to bringing the car to the alignment shop. |
I'd suggest that you remove the shims before attempting to align the front end. Caster shims are frequently used on cars with lowered front ends to correct the fore/aft steering pivot angle. If your car sits at stock ride height, and the steering wheel wants to return back toward center after completing a 90° turn, the shims shouldn't be needed.
_________________
'63 Ragtop (current)
'65 Ghia coupe (totaled)
'67 Ghia convertible (current)
'69.5 Ghia convertible and
'62, '63, '65, '69 Bugs (all long gone) |
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