Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions

[Ceckert64]

[Chickensoup]

yeah. somehow. imma make it out of this hell hole here real soon tho.

Personally, i dont like the idea of the "lube a lobe" design, and a hole in the center of a low contact wear surface seems edgy(literally) as wear increases, BUT, ive never used them, and ive never heard of failures. So, hopefully someone else could chime in. I know youve asked before. plural.

I think youd be fine tho if the machining is up to standards. If scat and webcam manufacture them, you should be fine. Maybe it actually helps. idk.

Btw, im a "new member", so i cant PM till tomorrow.

[Ceckert64]

[raygreenwood]

[Chickensoup]

i looked at your shopping cart again. few things...


Do they dont make dbl thrust cam bearings for T4? if not, it may be worth it to buy another set so you could make this happen. The timing gears are helical and push the gear towards the thrust surface.

You may be able to order your web cam cheaper through Dan Rudock.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2233833

IDK which cam blank ACN orders from web, but Dan uses the EP-12 blank. Which means you SHOULD be able to use CB lifters. I would email and ask tho.

https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/2200.htm
(solid, no oil hole)

or

https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1510.htm
(hydraulic, no oil hole)

Ive never used curil-k2, and i know some people swear by it, but for the price, you could find something cheaper and better. Ive used yama/3 bond, and it works and works very well. Go to the T4 group on face book, and watch Jake rabies take on sealants. the video is long, and kinda boring, but he demonstrates what works for T4 engines.

You also need to buy cam shield. Apply it on the cam lobes and lifter faces. It helps aid in cam break in for our flat tappet cams.

https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/3049.htm
This is a big container of it. you should be able to buy a much smaller packet, which will last you 2-3 engine builds.

And if you end up buying more parts from cb, you could save like 5 bucks on the intake/carb linkage kit.

https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/3128.htm

[Clatter]

Um,
I’d be waiting a bit before counting your chickens..
There are worldwide parts supply issues at hand,
And just because aircooled.net lists something on their site doesn’t mean they can get it.
Call Web.
See if they have any type 4 cams to sell..

You won’t have to worry about hole/no hole.
Use the right oil and the cam and lifters that the manufacturer says and you’ll be fine.
You’re not running 500# over the nose..
_________________
Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[Ceckert64]

My pistons, cylinders and heads showed up yesterday. The Mahle P&C look great and I think they are balanced since they said balanced on the box and the weight numbers were written on the pistons.

The heads, I was pretty disappointed with. For 1,000 to rebuild the heads you don’t get much (luckily I didn’t even pay that much for them, the P&Cs and shipping) they are still dirty, the castings heads have a lot of issues. One has a small crack pictured below

The onl spark plug hole is welded up and when they tapped it they left burs on the sealing surface and the threads are too deep and the sealing surface needs to be machined down farther, I could see some air pockets in the welds showing in the threads.

The one hole for the cooling tins has been opened up for much larger threads and they didn’t fix that.

The machining quality doesn’t seem the greatest in spots. I also found that one valve guide on the exhaust wasn’t installed right. It doesn’t stick out at all and it goes way into the hole for the guide. The first pic is the issue one and the other is the normal one. It also looks like the exhaust valve is different on the one with the weird guide.

The seats have been replaced I think and they are at slightly different heights. The sealing surface for valve covers has a fair amount of shelf rash.

_________________
1964 sunroof Beetle Restoration "Herbie"
“Joann” 1970 Elm Green Squareback
1972 Sierra Yellow Tin Top Westfalia Camper
“Fitz” 1971 Westfalia Poptop

[RWK]

Further disassembly, cleaning and inspection would be wise, blue valve pic shows a gouge,melt down spot or porosity? not sure. Possible guide broke off while pressing in or its not in all the way? You will want that support for the valve. Should also check sealing surface for cyl. and chamber volumes. Plug hole can be inserted as well as the tin hole, or use a larger bolt/screw.
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73 Type 181
63 Type 113
63 Type 261- 428 071
62 Type 241-378 025 178 530

[Chickensoup]

nice toes Do what RWK says, hes a machinists i think. I would contact the seller and try to work something out. Not only is that guide not fully supported but the exhaust heat will transfer to the valve easier.
_________________
-'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge"

[Ceckert64]

[Clatter]

Welcome to the wonderful world of rebuilt heads!
Now you know why Len and others won't accept used Bus castings to start with.
Probably 87% of all used Bus heads aren't even rebuildable.

First off, I'll say that i do not consider any of your conditions terminal,
And that if you bolted them on and ran them they would probably last and run for years.
That said, I'd be pulling them apart, cc-ing chambers, checking guide fit, etc. to be sure.

That crack near the upper two center head studs isn't too bad.
I'll bet the heads have been flycut pretty heavy if things were moving that much.
When you build the motor, do a leak-down or otherwise pressurize the chambers to be sure the head was cut flat and level between the holes.
If you have a bit of leak at the head seal, you might consider gluing the heads on with some ultra copper.


Welded plug holes are actually looking good.
Better than an insert IMHO, and certainly far better than stripped out.
That is a pretty low amount of porosity compared to a lot of other welded heads I've seen.
The castings are porous and absorb oil over the years.
Welding them sucks because the oil comes out of pores and pops and spits and makes bubbles in weld.
Most serious builders will do all of their welding on new castings for this reason.


The bigger tin screw is actually supposed to be that way.
Fuel injected cars put Temp Sensor II in that location.
Find an old one in the junkyard and use it as a nut.


That valve guide, while definitely not right, will probably work.
Like was suggested, perhaps it wasn't driven in all the way.
Hope that is what's going on.
Maybe you'll pull some springs and find the one guide sticking up into the rocker box area.
However, if that's the case, they might have been driving in an oversize guide that was a bit too big, and it ended up sticking before it was home, and they gave up.
If you are really lucky, you'll be able to wail on it and get it the rest of the way home.
This will 'mushroom' the top of the guide, and close it up smaller at the top there from the impact of your driving,
and the guide will have to be reamed back to size afterward.
Any normal automotive machine shop can ream guides.
Many cars used to need this done, not just VWs.

If it is indeed a smaller guide, and you really care and/or worry about it,
You can core it, drive it out, measure it, and fid a replacement.
I just got a set of oversize guides successfully from aircooled.net last month.
They might just be the last place on earth with these in-stock...

Otherwise, it probably isn't the end of the world...

You valve job could likely be better.
A good place will sink the valve job a bit more.
Again, not the end of the world.
Pop the valves out, and inspect. Some lapping wil tell the story.

Valve cover gasket seating can be dressed down with a file if you care.
If you really care, pull the rocker studs and you can sand them flat on a plate.
They're usually like that - chewed up.

Same with the valves and/or guides being different.
Most volume rebuilt heads will have different used valves thrown in.
A cheap set of rebuilt heads doesn't usually get you a whole set of matching new valves.

i also wouldn't bother calling Adrian about it.
Budget head rebuilder, and what you got there is what he sells..

CC the chambers first and check for valve leaks.
Pull all the valves out and inspect the valve job.
Check all of the valve/guide clearance by feeling/measuring the 'rock' as per the Bentley.
Give that odd guide a good look,
And post a bunch of pics.

Despite what a lot of 'experts' on the internet might say,
There's tons of cheap rebuilt heads pushing buses around all over the world,
And if you looked real closely at the heads,
They might be worse than yours by far...
_________________
Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[Clatter]

Couple other thoughts..

Put some plugs in and check the depth.
See if they faced the plug washer area accurately.

If you're going to run a CHT, you'll want to make some sender room.

I'd also check those P&L.
Make sure the rings are on right-side up, gapped right, Piston-to-cylinder clearance right.
Make sure they all are from the same batch, all the same length, etc.
Check piston weight, on and on.
Trust no parts - new or used.

Might give my Cheap Junk build another peek, in case there's a tidbit or two for you..
_________________
Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[Ceckert64]

Thanks for the info! I didn’t realize they put a temp sensor in that one hole. Some of the spots you mentioned I didn’t consider for welding. I also guess I didn’t think they were economy head rebuilders. But realistically it probably has 200-300 in parts to rebuild it. I guess I could have done a round two of my home done valve job on the 1700 heads and had them fly cut

I poured some paint thinner into the ports, and they actually sealed up one I left for close to 2 hours and to was only a little wet on the combustion side of the valve. Barely any leaked out. So that’s good news at least. But I will still take apart the one that has the messed up exhaust guide and get that fixed.

So I took your advice and got in contact with aircooled.net. Here ya go, “ Web-cam has not been able to tell us how long the wait for more blanks will be, presumably because their blank supplier also is unable to predict.
We check in with them about every 2-3 weeks, and the blank shortage has already been ongoing for close to 5 months.
We have a standing order for restock on the most popular cam grinds, so we are in line to receive re-stock on Web-cams at the point that the shortage of blanks is overcome.”
So at least 5 months in back orders, with no end in sight: I need to choose a diff cam if I want to get this done. I couldn’t find anyone else that happened to have one for sale. So runner up cam seems to be a Scat camshafts. I think maybe a C35? Aircooled.net listed it good for a dual barrel dual carb setup and a great bus cam. Or maybe a milder C25 but that doesn’t seem as good. I would match it with Scat lifters too. Going the route would also save me 100-200 in parts.
_________________
1964 sunroof Beetle Restoration "Herbie"
“Joann” 1970 Elm Green Squareback
1972 Sierra Yellow Tin Top Westfalia Camper
“Fitz” 1971 Westfalia Poptop

[Chickensoup]

Eagle cams are out of stock as well, but they seem to have a smaller time interval between back orders.

https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/2202.htm

This cam is similar to the web 86 based of the 2 numbers CB gives WTH CB why no at 50 number?

anyways, it may be a good choice. says it works well with duels and lower-mid range engines.
_________________
-'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge"

[ept000]

I waited a LONG time for my Web Cam. It was ordered in January and I just got it about two weeks ago. It doesn't seem to be just a problem with getting blanks. I called every week for an update and got answers like the guy who grinds the cams went on vacation. Or we had a rush order for Ferrari so we had to bump you out of line. For the last several weeks its was "it's shipping tomorrow" which never happened. Very frustrating.

[raygreenwood]

Or.....you might also check the type 4 store stock. Excellent cams for type 4, they are made by Web cam. Ray

[Ceckert64]

Thanks for the info everyone! Type4 store was back ordered as well. I ended up getting a scat C35 from aircooled.net along with matching lifters. Hopefully they arrive somewhat soon.

Well, I’m going to building a 1700cc still one of my friends at school is buying a but that needs an engine so we are doing going to do an absolute budget build, so we’ll use that spare 1.7L I have. We will already have some different sets of stock dual carbs for the bus and L-jet systems. Would L-jet work with a 1.7L with high compression pistons? Or would modifying stock dual carbs be easiest? Or get a set of Weber ICTS? Trying to keep the 1.7L build as cheap as possible.
_________________
1964 sunroof Beetle Restoration "Herbie"
“Joann” 1970 Elm Green Squareback
1972 Sierra Yellow Tin Top Westfalia Camper
“Fitz” 1971 Westfalia Poptop

[Ceckert64]

Got some engine parts I needed, still waiting on some to build my engine. But I started tearing into the motor for my friends bus, still in true form of a 73 412 engine, not in the best shape but could be much worse. I don’t think we’ll split the case as the cam is in okay condition and the engine will probably get a better rebuild in a few years when my friend has more money to spend on it. For the engine build I got my $20 engine stand set up and the holes drilled into it to hold the engine. I also figured out the engine wouldn’t go more than 1/2 a revolution because a chunk of compacted carbon was stopping it. I think the plan will be new valves, maybe some new springs, gasket kit, and honing the cylinders and put it back together. I’m going to use some parts from the 1.7 I originally tore down as they are in better shape. The plan is to use a 1975-1978 header/ heater box system with a Monza exhaust as that’s what I got in a huge parts deal from where my friend bought his bus. I also got another really nice set of 72-74 heater boxes, a bunch of nice T4 cooling tin, a bunch of carburetors, FI systems, and a bunch of other bus parts. For some reason just half of a type 4 case the parts filled an entire truck bed anyways, the engine will use that exhaust system, and I’m thinking running L-jet but I was curious how that’d play with the smaller high compression engine with a D-jet cam vs it’s usual bigger, lower compression engine it’s used on.

Then I did a little home resurfacing on two flywheel and pressure plate as no one seems to be able to machine them in driving distance. I used a friend lathe and mainly knocked off the rust.

_________________
1964 sunroof Beetle Restoration "Herbie"
“Joann” 1970 Elm Green Squareback
1972 Sierra Yellow Tin Top Westfalia Camper
“Fitz” 1971 Westfalia Poptop

[Wreck]

All this is experience , just about everyone learns through mistakes of sorts , back on the first page I posted about the cost of new heads verses rebuilt heads . Not that you really want to know but others learning from your experience (what makes these threads very good) may note that you have spent $1000 on getting old heads rebuilt , that you are disappointed with ,when you could have now bought brand new heads for less money from AA .
In my opinion the C35 will not be the right cam for a 1700 in a bus , the C25 would be a better option.
https://aapistons.com/collections/stock-performance-type-4-914-head-aa-series?page=1

[Ceckert64]