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bugguy1967
Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2008
Posts: 4341
Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
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 Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: 3-valve OHC type 4 (Apfelbeck) cylinderhead project |
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If you produce a working set, I'll be your first customer.
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"A petrol engine can start readily, run smoothly and give every appearance of being in good order, without necessarily being in good tune." - Colin Campbell, "The Sportscar Engine" |
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Chickensoup
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018
Posts: 5368
Location: Good Hope, GA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:13 pm Post subject: Re: 3-valve OHC type 4 (Apfelbeck) cylinderhead project |
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| bugguy1967 wrote: |
| If you produce a working set, I'll be your first customer. |
 NO, I will. I'm just kidding  maybe I'll be the second tho.
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-'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
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oldgit
Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2007
Posts: 88
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2021 7:28 am Post subject: Re: 3-valve OHC type 4 (Apfelbeck) cylinderhead project |
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Did you get the heads digitized?
If so where, I am looking to have an old engine part for a tractor done. |
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Chickensoup
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018
Posts: 5368
Location: Good Hope, GA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2021 7:35 am Post subject: Re: 3-valve OHC type 4 (Apfelbeck) cylinderhead project |
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| oldgit wrote: |
Did you get the heads digitized?
If so where, I am looking to have an old engine part for a tractor done. |
If I remember right the first page has some pictures of the heads modeled in a cad program. If not I know he said he had it ready in cad(the modeling software), and cam(the machining software).
If not I could probably have it done for you. Although depending on the complexity, I may have to have it in hand to reverse engineer it.
_________________
-'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
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mark tucker
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2021 7:46 am Post subject: Re: 3-valve OHC type 4 (Apfelbeck) cylinderhead project |
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| shit have the chicken print them for inspection and testing!!! |
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Beetspeed
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2004
Posts: 429
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2021 11:27 am Post subject: Re: 3-valve OHC type 4 (Apfelbeck) cylinderhead project |
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| oldgit wrote: |
Did you get the heads digitized?
If so where, I am looking to have an old engine part for a tractor done. |
Yes, but not by me personally. We all have our qualities, that is not one of mine. I just bring in the neccesary perserverence 
The complete digital data was used to make the molds. I investigated alu printing and billet machining in depth, but eventually the current proces proved the best balance in cost and quality. And casting has historical value to some extent as the first 3 heads were cast in the (probably) late seventies. Back then they used wooden molds! I have the complete wooden set of casting molds from which the original test heads were cast. Its amazing Ludwig pulled that off from those..
My friends corrected quite a few weaknesses which became apperent from using a modern 3D CAD program (Inventor btw).
This is whats needed today just to cast a head:
The "plastic" green parts/inserts and the alu machined head (it consists of several parts, but looks like one complete head, are all extremely smooth and pretty. I was overwhelmed when I saw this first time earlier this year you can imagine.
I sure will try to make a tested head assembly available as affordable as possible, but it may take a while to have all little custom parts made as you might imagine. If its really 'sensible' from a $$-performance point of view, I dunno as several billet (type 4) heads are readily available for probably less. Probably not sensible at all. Still, I do this purely because I like it so much myself, even if it makes no sense
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'75 SB 1303 2,4ltr T4 turbo: 10.58 @ 129.9mph
'65 Ruska buggy 1192cc EFI 80hp N/A |
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mark tucker
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2021 3:51 pm Post subject: Re: 3-valve OHC type 4 (Apfelbeck) cylinderhead project |
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| it dose not have to make sense. just make you happy doing somethen different.and hopefully it will work and make a few cents. |
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Beetspeed
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2004
Posts: 429
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:02 am Post subject: Re: 3-valve OHC type 4 (Apfelbeck) cylinderhead project |
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Well, machining of the first cast head has been done and all parts that had been made for it 15 years ago fit like a glove. Long live cad-cam designing and machining I suppose!
I placed one of the biral 98mm bore cylinders on it and it looks cool anyways 
Probably just need to have the sparkplugs machined 1mm less deep, so they don't stick out anymore:
With the partial (half length) tangential cut cam the (roller) rockers run freely:
Link
Lots of parts to be made yet and things to work out. Small steps at the time keeps it manageable
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'75 SB 1303 2,4ltr T4 turbo: 10.58 @ 129.9mph
'65 Ruska buggy 1192cc EFI 80hp N/A |
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ArnoudH
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Joined: December 30, 2008
Posts: 162
Location: The Lowlands
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| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:21 am Post subject: Re: 3-valve OHC type 4 (Apfelbeck) cylinderhead project |
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That is quite the achievement Walter!
I see you have a camshaft in it but it's probably only for mockup.
How are you going to determine what camprofile you are going to need to make the engine run properly?
260Hp from a two litre?-thats Cosworth B-series territory 
Cheers,Arnoud |
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Beetspeed
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2004
Posts: 429
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:59 am Post subject: Re: 3-valve OHC type 4 (Apfelbeck) cylinderhead project |
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| ArnoudH wrote: |
That is quite the achievement Walter!
I see you have a camshaft in it but it's probably only for mockup.
How are you going to determine what camprofile you are going to need to make the engine run properly?
260Hp from a two litre?-thats Cosworth B-series territory
Cheers,Arnoud |
Yes, its a test cam in only half the length, but made with the ~ profile I would try first.
You're right, its just an educated guess what this type of head and engine would 'need' for a given RPM range. We have had a tangentional (roller) profile drawn up 17 years ago. the rockers are roller tipped, so its a tangent cam (just as Apfelbeck described in his book as well), lets see what it does
The hp goal is the value Ludwig mentioned in his book for this engine in 2 ltr form: 230 hp.
But tbh: if it ever runs without seizing in the first minutes or hour, I would be extremely happy whatsoever, regardless of output numbers.
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'75 SB 1303 2,4ltr T4 turbo: 10.58 @ 129.9mph
'65 Ruska buggy 1192cc EFI 80hp N/A |
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Beetspeed
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2004
Posts: 429
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 12:31 pm Post subject: Re: 3-valve OHC type 4 (Apfelbeck) cylinderhead project |
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Very happy the other heads have been cast and machined now as well, so I could trial fit them on the case.
Head studs are all equal length, the short ones of a stock type 4 set (the upper ones) will work for most widths.
Rockers and rocker shafts have been made as well. Making camshaft (blanks) and manifolds will be the next step(s).
All parts surrounding the heads presents at least as much work as the heads themselves!
For those without FB :
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'75 SB 1303 2,4ltr T4 turbo: 10.58 @ 129.9mph
'65 Ruska buggy 1192cc EFI 80hp N/A |
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Tvättbjörn
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Joined: May 07, 2004
Posts: 1431
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 5:11 pm Post subject: Re: 3-valve OHC type 4 (Apfelbeck) cylinderhead project |
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| Thank you for posting it here. Lots of people are not on FB. |
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Beetspeed
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2004
Posts: 429
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2022 5:15 am Post subject: Re: 3-valve OHC type 4 (Apfelbeck) cylinderhead project |
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No problem! Lots of gearheads here, so thats always good to chat with and therefore interesting for me as well.
Same setting, different perspective:
The manifolds will be for the IDA pattern only as the bore spacing is very close to that of the wider IDA pattern. The 2 liter will use 45mm ITB's in an IDA pattern (from VWspeedshop) for that reason.
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'75 SB 1303 2,4ltr T4 turbo: 10.58 @ 129.9mph
'65 Ruska buggy 1192cc EFI 80hp N/A |
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Beetspeed
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2004
Posts: 429
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2022 11:38 am Post subject: Re: 3-valve OHC type 4 (Apfelbeck) cylinderhead project |
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| Tvättbjörn wrote: |
| Thank you for posting it here. Lots of people are not on FB. |
As some more parts were designed and made to reality, here's the pics I also posted on FB. These here are better quality and larger though
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'75 SB 1303 2,4ltr T4 turbo: 10.58 @ 129.9mph
'65 Ruska buggy 1192cc EFI 80hp N/A |
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67rustavenger 
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Joined: February 24, 2015
Posts: 9759
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2022 11:53 am Post subject: Re: 3-valve OHC type 4 (Apfelbeck) cylinderhead project |
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Those heads are fantastic.
I have a question.
What is your plan for oil pressure on this engine?
since the cams are OHV. How you propose to drive your oil pump?
Thank you for the update.
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I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
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Beetspeed
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2004
Posts: 429
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2022 12:13 pm Post subject: Re: 3-valve OHC type 4 (Apfelbeck) cylinderhead project |
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| 67rustavenger wrote: |
Those heads are fantastic.
I have a question.
What is your plan for oil pressure on this engine?
since the cams are OHV. How you propose to drive your oil pump?
Thank you for the update. |
Thanks!
There will be a rudimentary 'cam' in the original location, probably just to keep the oil (pressure) holes there occupied, but mainly to drive the oil pump in the original location.
The original "cam" doesn't need to operate lifters, but it will be able to hold an original cam gear and all will work as stock. Easy-peasy.
Since the cam does not need to have lobes, very large stroke cranks (86mm is large in my book) will run freely without having to grind the rods to pass each other or use reduced lift cams or such.
I want to keep it as simple and stock-case as possible.
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'75 SB 1303 2,4ltr T4 turbo: 10.58 @ 129.9mph
'65 Ruska buggy 1192cc EFI 80hp N/A |
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halbug
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Location: Germany
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tcoop1100
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Joined: August 12, 2004
Posts: 194
Location: Hilo, Moku O Keawe, Moana Pakipika
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| Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2022 7:29 pm Post subject: Re: 3-valve OHC type 4 (Apfelbeck) cylinderhead project |
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Beautiful! Any ideas on what compression ratio it'll run?
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Aloha,
Tim
January '57 Sedan with April '64 40hp big bore |
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Beetspeed
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2004
Posts: 429
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2022 2:55 am Post subject: Re: 3-valve OHC type 4 (Apfelbeck) cylinderhead project |
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| tcoop1100 wrote: |
| Beautiful! Any ideas on what compression ratio it'll run? |
Thats the least of my worries tbh
But more seriously: I haven't given that much thought, depends (as with any engine) on your camshaft timing. For the first engine probably somewhere between 10-12:1 to be safe.
Setting CR would be mostly in the design of the piston top. Smaller engines would need a bigger dome shape, but thats just stating the obvious right?
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'75 SB 1303 2,4ltr T4 turbo: 10.58 @ 129.9mph
'65 Ruska buggy 1192cc EFI 80hp N/A |
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nogoodwithusernames
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Joined: November 10, 2014
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