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Chickensoup
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Joined: January 06, 2018
Posts: 5368
Location: Good Hope, GA
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 Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:01 am Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? |
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And then the OP left the chat... never to be heard of again...
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12740
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:13 am Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? |
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| KEGZ wrote: |
Why do modern cars have factory oil coolers? Did the OEM “do something wrong” and it’s there to bandaid their fk up?
People incorporate an updated feature to regulate oil temp in 60 year old aircooled technology and its heresy. You guys are all trippin. Might as well tell all the EFI guys to gtfo.
No one I know who drives their drag cars on the street overheat. I run 25lb boost on the street and don’t even come close. Is it ONLY because of the oil cooler? No.. but I’d be full of shit if I said it doesn’t help. |
Where did you get the idea that oil coolers don't help? In my case that is the the only thing that DID help! I was discussing sumps not coolers... and a sump is not a substitute for an oil cooler.
Running any air cooled VW engine with no oil cooler is insane!
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RandyV
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Joined: November 23, 2019
Posts: 357
Location: So Cal
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:47 am Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? |
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| Chickensoup wrote: |
| And then the OP left the chat... never to be heard of again... |
Ha ha.....I'm still here admiring the ideas!
Interesting thoughts about the sump drawing only the hot oil, however, I can't imagine there isn't still *some* mixing going on in the dynamic motion of the vehicle itself. Heck, inertia might even be contributing (though minimally) as the oil moves from front to back which may for a gear-type flow inside the sump (though again, minimally and surely would almost need a see-thru sump to conirm)
Still pondering what I'll do.  |
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QRP
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Joined: April 27, 2008
Posts: 1712
Location: NORTH HOLLYWOOD,CA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:28 am Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? |
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This thread keeps giving and giving . . . LOL
I'm just gonna ad my 2 cents here about oil coolers.
Even the VW factory improved on the cooling system as the displacement increased, by time the dual port 1600cc was the standard they brought in the dog house system that was a vast improvement over the original cooler.
Now here's something to think about, if VW would've continued increasing the displacement to let's say a factor option 74mm x 90.5mm with dual carbs would they have also made further improvements on the cooling system, maybe or maybe not.
That we will never know.
But the only other example that I can think of is Porsche.
As they increased the displacement and RPM capability of the air cooled engine the made improvements to the oil cooling system.
Dry sump and auxiliary coolers were added to keep everything in check.
It's just something to think about, as some have said here it never hurts to have the extra cooling capacity if your gonna go bigger.
I am one of them.
Also wanna ad MO about oil lines.
Not everyone out there can afford the latest greatest gold plated scare face braided lines.
And no matter what you use whether it be low buck rubber with hose clamps or the top shelf braided stuff, if you install it correctly it won't leak if you don't it will. |
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Lingwendil
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Joined: February 25, 2009
Posts: 3988
Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:45 am Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? |
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even the factory went bigger with the oil cooler on the type 4, definitely worth considering. especially with our cars you will notice sustained high RPM runs will always run hotter. If you plan to run hard it makes sense to keep it in mind.
I keep wiggling around but think I'll eventually run an auxiliary cooler under the package tray, with a thermostat bypass and a thermoswitch for fan control. even a small one should be plenty in addition to the stock cooler. All it needs to do is take the edge off, really.
A while back I saw a kit to use an additional stock offset cooler, and it mounted to the torsion housing. If you duct some air to via simple sheetmetal scoops and for backup run a moderately sized fan through it I bet it would be plenty for the average guy.
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Paul Jr
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Joined: July 20, 2018
Posts: 458
Location: PA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:16 pm Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? |
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| oprn wrote: |
Think about what is really happening in a deep add on sump fellows. Hot oil is falling down from the engine all around and right beside the pickup tube and being sucked right back up by the pump. All the rest of your extra oil reserve is sitting stagnant in that nice big sump going nowhere. Why? Because it is being cooled by the passing air stream and is cooler and thicker than the oil next to the pump pickup tube. Thick cooler oil does not move as easily as hot thin oil. So it ain't going nowhere and there is nothing in that sump to make it go anywhere! It's not mixing!
Now think about what happens in the stock crankcase. Hot oil is flowing down the outside of the case from all 4 directions, contacting the case sides and bottom that are being cooled by passing air then being sucked up in the center by the oil pump pick up tube. Yup, that oil is being mixed, cooled and circulated! Now add a sump on the bottom and block off that cool air on the case floor... it's a wonder to me that an added sump does not actually increase oil temperature! It should...
I have given this conundrum some thought... ideally we would drill 4 holes in the extreme corners of the add on sump, 4 matching holes in the bottom of the crankcase and connect the two. Then we would block off the hole the oil normally comes down and only have the pickup tube coming through in the center. Now the oil HAS to circulate in that sump and there should very little oil taking a holiday in the corners!
This idea however could be an oil leaking nightmare! The other idea is to tee off the oil pickup tube down inside the add on sump and make the oil pump draw oil from the edges of the sump instead of taking up the easy to draw hot thin oil directly around it in the middle. This would be easier to do. |
You have a theory, problem is I don’t see the possibility that the oil doesn’t mix and the rate that it returns in relation to the speed the sump picks it up seems to ovride your theory.
It would be next to impossible for the oil not to mix.
Maybe you should do your experiment with multiple temp sensors but before testing the sump you should also consider having sensors placed in other areas like maybe before and after the filter if full flowed and at block entry and exit points. My guess and theory is you would definately see differences and prove the extra capacity does help. My only question would be how much does it help? |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12740
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:35 pm Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? |
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Yes it would be interesting to put temp sensors at different point around the add on sump but I already know how it will turn out and it is not theory. I just don't know how big the temperature differentials will be. Any liquid in a basically static vessel will stratify. From personal experiance I know oil does this big time.
I spent many years in the instrumentation field and was called on regularly to calibrate temperature switches, gauges and recorders. We normally used water for the lower heat ranges and often some type or other of oil for the heat ranges above 212*F for obvious reasons. I learned very quickly that unless you stir your temperature bath CONSTANTLY you will never get consistent readings and calibrations that should take minutes stretch into hours of frustration. And I mean constantly! Not once in a while. Oil is far worse in this regard than water and by stopping the stirring even for 10 seconds you can get temp fluctuations of 30 to 40*F across a 12" aluminum pot on a hot plate!
When an apprentice doing temp calibrations would get frustrated and ask me for help and nine times out of ten the problem would simply be that he/she was not stirring the the medium enough.
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12740
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:46 pm Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? |
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| RandyV wrote: |
| Interesting thoughts about the sump drawing only the hot oil, however, I can't imagine there isn't still *some* mixing going on in the dynamic motion of the vehicle itself. Heck, inertia might even be contributing (though minimally) as the oil moves from front to back which may for a gear-type flow inside the sump (though again, minimally and surely would almost need a see-thru sump to conirm) |
No need to wonder about this, you can confirm that yourself very easily right there at home. Get a see through container, fill it with water right to he top with NO air bubbles in it and put a drop or two of food coloring in it. With the lid on and remember, no air bubbles, see how long it takes you to mix it. Shake it anyway you like!
Your add on sump is just like that only worse due to the oil being much more viscus than water.
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Teeroy 
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Joined: April 20, 2003
Posts: 3685
Location: Eastern WA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:32 pm Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? |
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A sump is for added capacity to avoid starving bearing, it is not for cooling. Once everything is up to temp there is not enough fin surface area on a sump to lower the oil temp any significant amount.
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12740
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:50 am Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? |
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| QRP wrote: |
Now here's something to think about, if VW would've continued increasing the displacement to let's say a factor option 74mm x 90.5mm with dual carbs would they have also made further improvements on the cooling system, maybe or maybe not.
That we will never know. |
Ah yes, we do know! They increased the displacement and power output to 2.0 L and 80+ HP in the type 4 engine. This increase came with heads that have somewhere in the range of 30% more cooling area, a larger oil cooler and a crank mounted axial cooling fan.
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Paul Jr
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Joined: July 20, 2018
Posts: 458
Location: PA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:24 am Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? |
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| oprn wrote: |
Yes it would be interesting to put temp sensors at different point around the add on sump but I already know how it will turn out and it is not theory. I just don't know how big the temperature differentials will be. Any liquid in a basically static vessel will stratify. From personal experiance I know oil does this big time.
I spent many years in the instrumentation field and was called on regularly to calibrate temperature switches, gauges and recorders. We normally used water for the lower heat ranges and often some type or other of oil for the heat ranges above 212*F for obvious reasons. I learned very quickly that unless you stir your temperature bath CONSTANTLY you will never get consistent readings and calibrations that should take minutes stretch into hours of frustration. And I mean constantly! Not once in a while. Oil is far worse in this regard than water and by stopping the stirring even for 10 seconds you can get temp fluctuations of 30 to 40*F across a 12" aluminum pot on a hot plate!
When an apprentice doing temp calibrations would get frustrated and ask me for help and nine times out of ten the problem would simply be that he/she was not stirring the the medium enough. |
Key word that I see is static. I understand you have some experiance but that to me says sitting still. Our cars are driven, accelerated, turns, braking and bums. All of this ads to a surge which will also mix everything.
Right now I am learning to drive class a CDL and have experianced how much those motions make the fluid in a tank surge on an exaggerated level compared but you can’t tell me they aren’t mixing.
If they are mixing due to both movement of the vehicle and the amount however small you claim at the sump, then they are mixing which means more oil is getting a benefit of any cooling effects.
This also hints strongly why many claim they see a slight overall drop in temps. Does that mean they have no cooling effect or just a limited cooling effect?
As I said the only way to prove no mixing or no benafit can be found is to mount temp sensors in other places as well as the sump and drive it not sit still with it in a spot.
I just don’t see your theory making 100 percent sense except sitting still in lab conditions? |
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jpaull
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Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3466
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:18 am Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? |
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| Paul Jr wrote: |
| oprn wrote: |
Yes it would be interesting to put temp sensors at different point around the add on sump but I already know how it will turn out and it is not theory. I just don't know how big the temperature differentials will be. Any liquid in a basically static vessel will stratify. From personal experiance I know oil does this big time.
I spent many years in the instrumentation field and was called on regularly to calibrate temperature switches, gauges and recorders. We normally used water for the lower heat ranges and often some type or other of oil for the heat ranges above 212*F for obvious reasons. I learned very quickly that unless you stir your temperature bath CONSTANTLY you will never get consistent readings and calibrations that should take minutes stretch into hours of frustration. And I mean constantly! Not once in a while. Oil is far worse in this regard than water and by stopping the stirring even for 10 seconds you can get temp fluctuations of 30 to 40*F across a 12" aluminum pot on a hot plate!
When an apprentice doing temp calibrations would get frustrated and ask me for help and nine times out of ten the problem would simply be that he/she was not stirring the the medium enough. |
Key word that I see is static. I understand you have some experiance but that to me says sitting still. Our cars are driven, accelerated, turns, braking and bums. All of this ads to a surge which will also mix everything.
Right now I am learning to drive class a CDL and have experianced how much those motions make the fluid in a tank surge on an exaggerated level compared but you can’t tell me they aren’t mixing.
If they are mixing due to both movement of the vehicle and the amount however small you claim at the sump, then they are mixing which means more oil is getting a benefit of any cooling effects.
This also hints strongly why many claim they see a slight overall drop in temps. Does that mean they have no cooling effect or just a limited cooling effect?
As I said the only way to prove no mixing or no benefit can be found is to mount temp sensors in other places as well as the sump and drive it not sit still with it in a spot.
I just don’t see your theory making 100 percent sense except sitting still in lab conditions? |
For reals huh! But OPRN did not think of that little detail in his hours of sitting around contemplating stuff. Hes probably thinking now, oh crap, i forgot about that! Cars do move! How am i gonna defend my oil not mixing theory of contemplation when oil is sloshing around mixing?
For the others arguing, the ones that are talking about oil sumps helping temps, we are not saying oil coolers dont work, or we are substituing oil sumps for coolers, we are just saying they help. a 3.5 quart wide glide sump made it possible to live on the street in 100 degree temps for what i do. Now, if i wanted to "do more" i would add a cooler and do a nice job of it. custom lines are NOT expensive. The idea that rubber hoses and barbed fittings, or cheap hoses is ok cause "good stuff" is too expensive is fake news. Good hoses can be bought for $100 or $150 doing cooler lines. |
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Ohio Tom
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Joined: February 09, 2006
Posts: 1660
Location: Marshallville Ohio
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| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:46 am Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? |
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Might as well add my thoughts as well since nobody is listening....
Berg recommended 7.5/1 CR as well. So there's that..
External coolers are a worthy venture if you are running a big cc motor, hotter cam, higher compression ratio, etc..
It's reasonable to expect more heat to have to reject.
I like external coolers plumbed to the factory cooler ports. This retains the factory oil supply to bearings and helps to purge the cooler w/o starving bearings on startups. (as designed by VW). |
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Brian_e
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Joined: July 28, 2009
Posts: 3293
Location: Rapid City, SD
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| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:30 pm Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? |
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| jpaull wrote: |
| The idea that rubber hoses and barbed fittings, or cheap hoses is ok cause "good stuff" is too expensive is fake news. Good hoses can be bought for $100 or $150 doing cooler lines. |
Rubber hose and a china hose clamp are a great idea till you fire it up one morning and it dumps 4+ quarts of oil on the ground in about 10sec.
Or when the cheap hose gets hot and squishy, then sags against a header tube, and burns a hole in it, dumping oil all over the hot header.
Brian
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jimmyhoffa
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Joined: February 16, 2014
Posts: 1059
Location: St. Louis
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| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:42 pm Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? |
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For what it's worth I did about 5 years of super intense engine reliability research, and in my experience on about 10 radically different engine platforms, it can be pretty safely assumed that the volume of oil in the sump is pretty well all one temperature within about 2-4F. I assure you, you should be much more concerned about how badly your non-research-grade oil temp gauge of ANY COMMON BRAND is lying to you, than temp differentials in your sump. I don't care who makes it, unless its Omron, National Instruments, Kistler, etc., its probably telling you sweet little lies. All that jibber-jabber about auto parts store temp sensors being inaccurate is 100% truth. My VDO reads 10 degrees higher than a calibrated thermocouple going into a National Instruments Data Acquisition box positioned 2mm from it. I consider that good. My autometer read 18F lower- and yes I have that picture somewhere of two temp sensors in the same pot of boiling water disagreeing by 28 degrees F.
Stuff is real weird during warm up and temperatures are all over the place, but at running temperature everything stabilizes super fast, almost unintuitively fast.
The oil flinging out of the rods and mains is of course hotter, but blends and homogenizes into the bath of oil in the sump almost immediately.
At my disposal was a large research-grade thermocouple datalogger with dozens of thermocouples all over and inside the engine.
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oprn
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Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12740
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:35 pm Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? |
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| jpaull wrote: |
| But OPRN did not think of that little detail in his hours of sitting around contemplating stuff. Hes probably thinking now, oh crap, i forgot about that! Cars do move! How am i gonna defend my oil not mixing theory of contemplation when oil is sloshing around mixing? |
Way ahead of you Paul! Back up 5 or 6 posts and re-read...
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Paul Jr
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Joined: July 20, 2018
Posts: 458
Location: PA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:50 pm Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? |
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Just for the record, I am not trying to argue just trying to understand his point of view and have it make sense to me.
At this point I am missing something as no one I ever talked to said a deep sump would take the place of a cooler but most do claim it does help a noticeable amount.
Myself I have a deep sump full flowed to a filter but only run the stock dog house cooler and experiance no heat issues so far.
I am however concerned that when I start running my next engine I will need to add an external cooler into the mix.
Thanks for the information on how bad some gauges are, I will see what I can do to find some way to verify the readings.
I do know my oil pressure gauge is reading low compared to my uncles very expensive test gauge but never considered what the variance might be on the temp gauges. |
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txoval
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Posts: 3552
Location: The Woodlands, TX
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| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:21 pm Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? |
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I have measured my case temp vs sump temp numerous times after runs
When my case is 195-200F, my sump is 165F
I only run an external cooler as well, if you go this route I recommend buying a quality/efficient cooler. Setrab |
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Paul Jr
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Joined: July 20, 2018
Posts: 458
Location: PA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:54 pm Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? |
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| oprn wrote: |
| jpaull wrote: |
| But OPRN did not think of that little detail in his hours of sitting around contemplating stuff. Hes probably thinking now, oh crap, i forgot about that! Cars do move! How am i gonna defend my oil not mixing theory of contemplation when oil is sloshing around mixing? |
Way ahead of you Paul! Back up 5 or 6 posts and re-read... |
Your experiment suggestion with water and food dye also seems to be lacking as we are not moving the fluid in all the same ways and we are also not dropping the fluid heated elsware as it is in the engine.
Your heating it with a burner and sloshing it in the pan only? |
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King_vw61
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Joined: February 03, 2018
Posts: 1383
Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:11 pm Post subject: Re: Full flow without external cooler?? |
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