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Upgrading to H4 headlights?
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KTPhil Premium Member
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:57 am    Post subject: Re: Upgrading to H4 headlights? Reply with quote

ToolBox wrote:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Those are DOT spec lamps and will be different to the E-Code housings you are used to seeing.



That surprises me.

DOT lamps do not have that "right-up" aiming fluting of the lens (at the 3-4 o'clock position).

The pattern will be E-code, yet the lens is cast as DOT... strange!
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Upgrading to H4 headlights? Reply with quote

KTPhil wrote:
ToolBox wrote:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Those are DOT spec lamps and will be different to the E-Code housings you are used to seeing.



That surprises me.

DOT lamps do not have that "right-up" aiming fluting of the lens (at the 3-4 o'clock position).

The pattern will be E-code, yet the lens is cast as DOT... strange!


They are also made in Sweden. Cool
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Shonandb
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Upgrading to H4 headlights? Reply with quote

Shonandb wrote:
As CIP1 said they won't warranty these, I reached out directly to EMPI and they responded within 12 hours and asked me to send the pics and a summary of the problem. Sent that this morning and will report back on what they have to say.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


EMPI's Tech support came back saying that their Warranty is 12months so I should be able to return these to CIP1 as the issue/defect is with the lens/housing, not the bulbs. Forwarded the email thread to CIP1 but will have to wait until next week for their reply.
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KTPhil Premium Member
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Upgrading to H4 headlights? Reply with quote

notchboy wrote:
KTPhil wrote:
ToolBox wrote:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Those are DOT spec lamps and will be different to the E-Code housings you are used to seeing.



That surprises me.

DOT lamps do not have that "right-up" aiming fluting of the lens (at the 3-4 o'clock position).

The pattern will be E-code, yet the lens is cast as DOT... strange!


They are also made in Sweden. Cool


For comparison, here is an old Hella (German) E-code unit:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

It has similar 3-4 o'clock optics, which in the "upside down/backwards" way a reflector system works, means it throws some light up and to the right on the road, as desired.

There is some variation to the rest of the fluting between Bosch and Hella E-code units over the years, but none of them look like the DOT fluting, which mostly resembles that of the old-style sealed beams (which is usually what DOT-approved requires):

Sealed Beam:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


LED unit but with DOT pattern; see how similar it is to the sealed beam? They are both nearly symmetric left and right, unlike E-Code, which has the asymmetric beam:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Last edited by KTPhil on Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Upgrading to H4 headlights? Reply with quote

Shonandb wrote:

EMPI's Tech support came back saying that their Warranty is 12months so I should be able to return these to CIP1 as the issue/defect is with the lens/housing, not the bulbs. Forwarded the email thread to CIP1 but will have to wait until next week for their reply.


You are likely stuck in the middle of two parties pointing fingers at each other.

Frankly, from the pattern, it could be either the lamp or the bulb.

Remind me again... what bulbs do these use? Can you substitute a "normal" H4 bulb and see what the resulting pattern looks like?
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Upgrading to H4 headlights? Reply with quote

I wonder if that Swedish lamp is for a motorcycle? There are DOT-approved motorcycle lamps that are not allowed for cars (but they fit just fine! shhhh!)
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Upgrading to H4 headlights? Reply with quote

KTPhil wrote:
Shonandb wrote:

EMPI's Tech support came back saying that their Warranty is 12months so I should be able to return these to CIP1 as the issue/defect is with the lens/housing, not the bulbs. Forwarded the email thread to CIP1 but will have to wait until next week for their reply.


You are likely stuck in the middle of two parties pointing fingers at each other.

Frankly, from the pattern, it could be either the lamp or the bulb.

Remind me again... what bulbs do these use? Can you substitute a "normal" H4 bulb and see what the resulting pattern looks like?


The bulbs are what came with the purchase of the EMPI H4s from CIP1. I don't have another H4 bulb but will try to buy one this weekend to compare. Thanks for suggesting this as if the bulb is not positioned properly, that could be causing the focus issue.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Upgrading to H4 headlights? Reply with quote

KTPhil wrote:
I wonder if that Swedish lamp is for a motorcycle? There are DOT-approved motorcycle lamps that are not allowed for cars (but they fit just fine! shhhh!)


There is an M down by where it says DOT.

My '78 Bus has motorcycle lights.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Upgrading to H4 headlights? Reply with quote

KTPhil wrote:
I wonder if that Swedish lamp is for a motorcycle? There are DOT-approved motorcycle lamps that are not allowed for cars (but they fit just fine! shhhh!)


It only took you four posts to catch up. Wink Think Anxious
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2021 11:24 am    Post subject: Re: Upgrading to H4 headlights? Reply with quote

Shonandb wrote:
KTPhil wrote:
Shonandb wrote:

EMPI's Tech support came back saying that their Warranty is 12months so I should be able to return these to CIP1 as the issue/defect is with the lens/housing, not the bulbs. Forwarded the email thread to CIP1 but will have to wait until next week for their reply.


You are likely stuck in the middle of two parties pointing fingers at each other.

Frankly, from the pattern, it could be either the lamp or the bulb.

Remind me again... what bulbs do these use? Can you substitute a "normal" H4 bulb and see what the resulting pattern looks like?


The bulbs are what came with the purchase of the EMPI H4s from CIP1. I don't have another H4 bulb but will try to buy one this weekend to compare. Thanks for suggesting this as if the bulb is not positioned properly, that could be causing the focus issue.


Don't forget that H4 type quartz-halogen bulbs are available with at least three different types of mounting flange (i.e. P43t, P45t & P36t - as used for the Lucas "Bright Eyes" quartz-halogen headlamps on my 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 "HL Special"), so make sure you know which are appropriate to your EMPI headlamps.
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Last edited by NASkeet on Fri Dec 17, 2021 12:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 9:48 am    Post subject: Re: Upgrading to H4 headlights? Reply with quote

NASkeet wrote:
Shonandb wrote:
KTPhil wrote:
Shonandb wrote:

EMPI's Tech support came back saying that their Warranty is 12months so I should be able to return these to CIP1 as the issue/defect is with the lens/housing, not the bulbs. Forwarded the email thread to CIP1 but will have to wait until next week for their reply.


You are likely stuck in the middle of two parties pointing fingers at each other.

Frankly, from the pattern, it could be either the lamp or the bulb.

Remind me again... what bulbs do these use? Can you substitute a "normal" H4 bulb and see what the resulting pattern looks like?


The bulbs are what came with the purchase of the EMPI H4s from CIP1. I don't have another H4 bulb but will try to buy one this weekend to compare. Thanks for suggesting this as if the bulb is not positioned properly, that could be causing the focus issue.


Don't forget that H4 type quartz-halogen bulbs are available with at least three different types of mounting flange (i.e. P43t, P45t & P36t - as used for the Lucas "Bright Eyes" quartz-halogen headlamps on my 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 "HL Special"), somake sure you know which are appropriate to your EMPI headlamps.


Thanks. CIP1 recommended/paired the bulbs with the purchase of the EMPI H4 housings so I bought as a package.

No reply back from CIP1 as expected after sending them the 12 month warranty email message from EMPI's Tech Support/Customer Service. I will never buy anything from CIP1 ever again and I encourage others to be careful if you use them.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Upgrading to H4 headlights? Reply with quote

i'd like to offer this --

i have tested a number of these housings and various bulbs - halogen, HID and LED

and i present to you, in my opinion, the finest bulb available for a bus (as of Q4 '21, at least):

The Philips Ultinon Xtreme H4 gen2.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here are the key points:
- approx 3x light output
- better beam pattern than basically "any" other H4 on the market
- color temp on the latest revision is 5800K - which looks just fine on a vintage vehicle, not a wretched blue tint
- they are one of the only fan-less LED H4s with real output - passive cooling is the only acceptable solution here IMO
- the heat sink is threaded on/off so it is compatible with the housing rubber boots

The only issues:
- there are many counterfeit copies out there (make sure you buy from someone reputable)
- they are not cheap

here is a video that summarizes everything with excruciating technical detail:

Link


keep in mind, this is the gen1 in the review - the gen2 is improved over this.

p.s. for housings, i lean towards the cibie's but there are many nice options Smile
i really liked the [cheaper than cibie] busdepot motorcycle hella units i've tried as well
but housings aside, these bulbs are hands down the best i've been able to find.

i would say that a very nice H4 bi-xenon HID conversion with a standard 35W ballast is "perhaps" better in terms of light output (i run that on my other bay - it's kind of a toss up vs the philips to be honest - i'd say a 50W HID ballast would be undeniably better, though) .. however, HIDs are a hassle to fit, with lots of extra crap to go in the bus, and clearancing is required to pass the wiring into the bucket... not to mention there are so many options purporting to be the same thing, that finding the 'proper' unit (generally, without the help of legitimate branding to guide you, as well) isn't that easy.

10 times out of 10 i would put H4 housings and these philips in any bay Bus.

the LED bulbs simply install like a regular bulb... and you just thread the heat sink on and put the little control/regulator box in the bucket.

i would go so far as to say that "almost" every other H4 LED bulb on the market is junk. most of them have no regard to beam pattern (a lot of them even have you rotate the bulb to aim them in the housing...pfft) - even the ones with massive output tend to just throw light all over the place in totally unusable ways and almost all of them have fans.

on the contrary, if you watch the video reviewing the philips LED H4, there is a lot of technical detail covering the beam pattern (which is simply a more perfect version of a H4 halogen pattern, exactly as intended by the design) and total light output.

and yes, there are some nice H4 halogens, but the "right" LED or HID bulbs will perform MUCH better and use less power (and produce less heat).

the light output is simply incredible.
i would go so far as to call it "audi like" ... if that gives you any indication.

all of that is delivered without disrupting an appropriately bus-like appearance, too.

i sure have tried a lot of configurations to figure out that these are quite simply "where it's at."

i hope you try them and enjoy them as much as i have.

cheers
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 11:44 am    Post subject: Re: Upgrading to H4 headlights? Reply with quote

metahacker wrote:
i'd like to offer this --

i have tested a number of these housings and various bulbs - halogen, HID and LED

and i present to you, in my opinion, the finest bulb available for a bus (as of Q4 '21, at least):

The Philips Ultinon Xtreme H4 gen2.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here are the key points:
- approx 3x light output
- better beam pattern than basically "any" other H4 on the market
- color temp on the latest revision is 5800K - which looks just fine on a vintage vehicle, not a wretched blue tint
- they are one of the only fan-less LED H4s with real output - passive cooling is the only acceptable solution here IMO
- the heat sink is threaded on/off so it is compatible with the housing rubber boots

The only issues:
- there are many counterfeit copies out there (make sure you buy from someone reputable)
- they are not cheap

here is a video that summarizes everything with excruciating technical detail:

Link


keep in mind, this is the gen1 in the review - the gen2 is improved over this.

p.s. for housings, i lean towards the cibie's but there are many nice options Smile
i really liked the [cheaper than cibie] busdepot motorcycle hella units i've tried as well
but housings aside, these bulbs are hands down the best i've been able to find.

i would say that a very nice H4 bi-xenon HID conversion with a standard 35W ballast is "perhaps" better in terms of light output (i run that on my other bay - it's kind of a toss up vs the philips to be honest - i'd say a 50W HID ballast would be undeniably better, though) .. however, HIDs are a hassle to fit, with lots of extra crap to go in the bus, and clearancing is required to pass the wiring into the bucket... not to mention there are so many options purporting to be the same thing, that finding the 'proper' unit (generally, without the help of legitimate branding to guide you, as well) isn't that easy.

10 times out of 10 i would put H4 housings and these philips in any bay Bus.

the LED bulbs simply install like a regular bulb... and you just thread the heat sink on and put the little control/regulator box in the bucket.

i would go so far as to say that "almost" every other H4 LED bulb on the market is junk. most of them have no regard to beam pattern (a lot of them even have you rotate the bulb to aim them in the housing...pfft) - even the ones with massive output tend to just throw light all over the place in totally unusable ways and almost all of them have fans.

on the contrary, if you watch the video reviewing the philips LED H4, there is a lot of technical detail covering the beam pattern (which is simply a more perfect version of a H4 halogen pattern, exactly as intended by the design) and total light output.

and yes, there are some nice H4 halogens, but the "right" LED or HID bulbs will perform MUCH better and use less power (and produce less heat).

the light output is simply incredible.
i would go so far as to call it "audi like" ... if that gives you any indication.

all of that is delivered without disrupting an appropriately bus-like appearance, too.

i sure have tried a lot of configurations to figure out that these are quite simply "where it's at."

i hope you try them and enjoy them as much as i have.

cheers


Please keep in mind that substitution of LED bulbs or HID "bulbs" into H4 headlamps or even non-H4 headlamps with standard 45/40W glass-envelope, twin-filament headlamp bulbs, might NOT be legal in your local territories. They are presently illegal in Great Britain for use on the public highway.
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Much modified, RHD 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental campervan, with the World's only decent, cross-over-arm, SWF pantograph rear-window wiper

Onetime member, plus former Technical Editor & Editor of Transporter Talk magazine
Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club (Great Britain)

http://www.vwt2oc.net
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 12:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Upgrading to H4 headlights? Reply with quote

NASkeet wrote:


Please keep in mind that substitution of LED bulbs or HID "bulbs" into H4 headlamps or even non-H4 headlamps with standard 45/40W glass-envelope, twin-filament headlamp bulbs, might NOT be legal in your local territories. They are presently illegal in Great Britain for use on the public highway.


As noted on the packaging not for road use and NOT ECE approved.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Upgrading to H4 headlights? Reply with quote

The other issue.....the big issue in my opinion.....is that with halogen type bulbs, the geometry of the bulb.....glass envelope shape/diameter/length, filament length, tip masking etc.....are set up for or at least specified/chosen for the specific geometry of the reflector.

Not all lamp reflectors are equal in geometry.....and not all lamp bulbs are equal in their geometry to fit a specific reflector assembly. Thiw iw most especially true since H4 replacement bulbs fit a wide range of housings from round to square.

And this is not even yet getting into all of the diffetent fluting, beam cut off, side lighting or dlor beam direction and angle specs.

Likewise.......the geometry of LED lamp bulbs are TOTALLY different. LED's typically have an optical angle of 92° to 120°.......and since they only radiate from a very narrow single direction point.....LED high wattage projector bulbs like you need in q headlight have to be "clusters" or arrays with specific angles for overlap.

This means that unless a reflector hoysing is desitned to work with the LED array or the LED array is designed to work with a specific reflector assembly......the effect is rarely the same.....yet.

They are improving but I have not found any I am sold on yet. Typically LED's are great at being far brighter than the incandescent or filament type bulb when seen side by side.

This is lumens.

However.....they are poor at projection over a distance .....which is candlepower. Some of this is the reflector to bulb geometry issue.....but a lot of it is the light spectrum or mix that creates tye spectrum.

MOST....most..... LEDs are single phosphor/single color for each LED. So to create a specific color temperature they have a mixture of several different LED in some bulbs whose ouput angle has to overlap. As the CRI drops.....which it will in lower Kelvin bulbs.....the candlepower or "projection power " drops.

I see far too many LEDs still that when seen from oncoming vehicles....are blindingly BRIGHT.......yet the swath of the road they light up....is pitifully close to the vehicle. When the LED brigjts are turned on.....a total different geometry of bulb......they seem to get very pencil like long throw beams which still rarely match what an incandescent can do (I think thats some of the fluting and reflector geometry).....but light poorly close to the vehicle.

Part of that is also an,issue of trying to do both high and low beam in one headlight. Its not as much of an issue in vehicles with four headlights. Ray
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Upgrading to H4 headlights? Reply with quote

Ray,

I agree 100%.

However, that said... I think you need to watch the Russian guy's video to the point where he gets into the beam pattern specifics. Smile

The Philips H4 units have precisely matched the an "ideal H4 bulb" filament placement and light output with their LED array.
The beam pattern is simply perfect and the light output is massive.

Adding nice H4 housings and those bulbs takes a bus with sealed beams, which is like driving with a flashlight duct taped to your bicycle, to driving something expensive and German... and model year 2021.

I've used more LED bulbs than I care to keep track of... and all of them basically sucked for the reasons you stated.
Even the really bright ones that are supposedly high quality, were like a dazzlefest lightshow clusterf'k explosion of MASSIVE lumens all over the place.

The Philips Ultinon H4s are totally different.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 11:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Upgrading to H4 headlights? Reply with quote

Hmm, as I went to look for some photos of beam patterns to share.... I have now noticed that they've recently released a third revision of the product... one major enough to get a new name and spot in the product line. the Pro5000/Pro9000

https://www.bulbfacts.com/led-kits/reviews/philips-ultinon-pro9000-pro5000-led-review.html

And it seems they've taken it past the stage of perfectly emulating the H4 halogen bulb, and moved on to improving the beam pattern beyond what is possible with the halogen.

www.bulbfacts.com wrote:
"Most halogen reflectors will produce some glare for street signs and the like, and when you decide to upgrade to LED, well then you typically increase that glare due to the much higher output due to the technology. There are numerous LED designs to combat this and focus the beam the best way they possibly can, but the new Philips LEDs must have spent quite some time designing and testing to achieve a perfect beam which they are calling ‘SafeBeam technology’.

Yes, we said perfect. And we literally re-thought the way we rate the beam patterns. A halogen bulb used to rate 5.0 stars, but the Philips LEDs have a better beam over a halogen, so a halogen is now rated a 4.5, while the Philips LEDs are rated 5.0 stars.

This is of course always subjective, and we are not saying a halogen beam is bad, because it is designed to do exactly what it was meant to, but because the Philips LEDs are producing a projector-like beam, we had no choice but to change our rating scale. They have simply raised the bar. "


I'm still running the Ultinon gen1.... and I think they're the cat's pajamas ... sounds like the new 3rd gen ones are performing noticeably better...and have settled on a perfect 5000K color temperature...which looks great on a bus (no blue)
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 11:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Upgrading to H4 headlights? Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
high quality halogen, reflector housing
(as expected)

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
LED, Ultinon Pro9000, reflector housing
(even better)

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
a $100 LED, reflector housing
(garbage)


----


also, note the filament placement and internal reflector of a standard halogen vs philips h4
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


now, vs. the typical LED trainwreck (which has no regard for anything other than throwing tons of bright leds into the reflector at random angles and positions...note that these would produce a pattern even worse than the one shown above...a lot worse....this is "typical")
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



heh..sorry to make 3 posts like a madman Smile
i get excited about headlights, i guess...

also some somewhat new and interesting information:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


daniel stern the OG car lighting nerd says that the cibies went to shit and the KOITO H4 (from Japan) sealed beam replacements are the new hot fire.

here's the kicker. they're usually like $200 a pair but apparently there is some Toyota OE deal for a headlight kit they sell to replace sealed beams on old toyotas .. and people are reselling that for dirt cheap vs the MSRP list price on a regular set of Koito H4 7's by themselves.....

https://cruiserteq.com/oem-toyota-koito-h4-headlight-upgrade-kit-w-harness/
check it out, $57 for the pair of Koito's AND a relay harness...WTF? that is dirt cheap

seems to come in a toyota box
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interesting reflector pattern on these ...
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 10:20 am    Post subject: Re: Upgrading to H4 headlights? Reply with quote

Very nice research!

Especially since you UNDERSTAND what I was getting at. Too many LED headlight mfgs....just do not seem to get the geometry issues.....and lumens versus candlepower.

I will take all of this under consideration when starting to shop.....if I shop for something other than what I have....when I get it back on the road.

Right now.....and bear in mind that this is on a 412.....with inner high beams and outer high/low beams with the higj/lows being old school (1980s) Hella semi-flat faced H4s with lead crystal lenses and Hella 100/80 bulbs.

The inner high beams.....well....not fully legal.....but aimed properly and never had an issue or question.....are Hella clear lens Par 46 driving lamps with 100 watt HB-2 bulbs.

It took years and miles of night driving to arrive at a killer combo and get them aimed right and safe.

But.....the miles have been hard on the glass. If I could find exact replacement.....I would stay with what I have.

I will post pics shortly.
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Ray
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WestyPop
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2021 3:07 am    Post subject: Re: Upgrading to H4 headlights? Reply with quote

Ray Greenwood stated, "But.....the miles have been hard on the glass."

Yesss! Since new my '68 Westy's good ol' CIBIE z-Beams have been covered by plastic covers, now-yellowing and getting brittle I'm sure. Where are good quality new 7" plastic headlight covers available these days?
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