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Best wheel stud kit for Empi 911 wide 5? 1966 bug.
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Cabo9302
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:13 pm    Post subject: Best wheel stud kit for Empi 911 wide 5? 1966 bug. Reply with quote

I've searched to no avail, so I wanted to see if anyone can recommend a good quality wheel stud kit.

I have a 1966 bug that I just acquired a set of wide-5 Empi Fuchs replica wheels that I couldn't pass up.

(Like these)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


They will be mounted on stock drums. I was wanting to get a wheel stud kit (the screw in type), but had seen statements that the Empi kit sold on CIP1 is crap. From the cost ($39.99), they probably are cheap made.

https://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC%2DC10%2D6670
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This is not a daily driver, and is driven maybe 200 miles a year. Also, can anyone confirm I'll need 12mm studs? Thanks
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:45 am    Post subject: Re: Best wheel stud kit for Empi 911 wide 5? 1966 bug. Reply with quote

The thickness of the wheel where the lug nut is can vary greatly from one manufacturers wheel to another. I would get a few fully threaded bolts that you can trim the head off of to thread into the drum with your fingers to mock up. 80’s-90’s Honda’s had lugnuts that had an open end with a ball seat. You can then fit the wheel with the open lugnut to size up how long of a stud you need. A lot of the problems I’ve seen with the threaded in studs like from Empi are the studs aren’t long enough for a specific wheel, and the nut just catches the end of the threads. The other issue is no one applies any lock tight to the portion in the drum to keep the stud tight during removal, or any anti-seize on the lug nut portion of the thread to keep the nut from galling. I don’t think you would have any issue with the Empi set if they are long enough, but you could simply use a 10.9 grade fully threaded bolt to trim to length. The thread in the drum is 12mm x 1.50. The best solution would be to have your drums reamed/spotfaced, and use a pull through stud you could trim to the size you need.
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Cabo9302
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:50 am    Post subject: Re: Best wheel stud kit for Empi 911 wide 5? 1966 bug. Reply with quote

Good info - thanks!

I'm not skilled enough to attempt the pull through type of studs. I've looked at threads covering that process and it appears the inside of the drum would need some grinding to prevent any brake shoe rubbing? I simply don't rust myself to do that. I'll give the studs a try. Thanks again
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:09 am    Post subject: Re: Best wheel stud kit for Empi 911 wide 5? 1966 bug. Reply with quote

Related, I'm installing a stud kit on my stock drums. Length looks good but mocking them up, I noticed a couple of the studs seem to "keep going" through through the drum, ie, they don't tighten when they get to the non-threaded portion of the stud. Pretty sure it's something with the threads in the drum, though they're not stripped or x-threaded. Issue? Will finger-tight studs tighten up once I apply red Loctite and torque the lug nuts wheels to spec?
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:03 am    Post subject: Re: Best wheel stud kit for Empi 911 wide 5? 1966 bug. Reply with quote

Threads for studs are generally (suppose to be) a tighter fit then those for nut removal, that's why the pull thru are better, but harder to install, green lock tight might be your friend, if you thread a proper stud in to a hole it should not have any wiggle or looseness when in all the way (not bottomed out), unlike the nut side of stud.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Best wheel stud kit for Empi 911 wide 5? 1966 bug. Reply with quote

BruceJ wrote:
Related, I'm installing a stud kit on my stock drums. Length looks good but mocking them up, I noticed a couple of the studs seem to "keep going" through through the drum, ie, they don't tighten when they get to the non-threaded portion of the stud. Pretty sure it's something with the threads in the drum, though they're not stripped or x-threaded. Issue? Will finger-tight studs tighten up once I apply red Loctite and torque the lug nuts wheels to spec?


I would find out how much stud would be protruding off the face of the drum when it is flush inside. I would then get some 12x1.5 standard nuts to use as jamb nuts. Install the studs with loctite, then snug down the nuts as jamb nuts to put pressure on the threads for the loctite to set up. This way you can double check the position of the studs. Simply trying to put the wheel on, the wheel lugnut may rotate the stud into the drum further without you being able to see it. This will possibly result in the studs catching the shoes, and only a small portion on the lugnut engaging the stud threads.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Best wheel stud kit for Empi 911 wide 5? 1966 bug. Reply with quote

I believe the EMPI wide-5 Porsche replica wheel has a 60 degree beveled seat where the lug nuts seat to the wheel. The EMPI lug nuts in the picture you displayed below the wheel are similar to factory Porsche lug nuts with a ball seat which may be incompatible with the wide-5 replica wheel.
Regardless of the studs you choose make sure the lug nuts match the wheels…60 degree or ball seat. CB Perf has both options.
Opps….just realized the original poster has not made an entry since June and may have already solved their problem.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Best wheel stud kit for Empi 911 wide 5? 1966 bug. Reply with quote

DerrickfromNC1 wrote:

Opps….just realized the original poster has not made an entry since June and may have already solved their problem.


Nope, haven't solved the problem. Just been running stock smoothies at the moment. I'll probably try the screw-in stud method eventually.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:31 am    Post subject: Re: Best wheel stud kit for Empi 911 wide 5? 1966 bug. Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
I would find out how much stud would be protruding off the face of the drum when it is flush inside. I would then get some 12x1.5 standard nuts to use as jamb nuts. Install the studs with loctite, then snug down the nuts as jamb nuts to put pressure on the threads for the loctite to set up. This way you can double check the position of the studs. Simply trying to put the wheel on, the wheel lugnut may rotate the stud into the drum further without you being able to see it. This will possibly result in the studs catching the shoes, and only a small portion on the lugnut engaging the stud threads.


Great idea. This is one of those concepts that twists my mind in a knot. As I tighten the lug nut I could easily picture any of three different things: the stud pulling itself out as I bring the lug nut to torque, or being driven in further, or (what I would want it to do) bed in the threads w/ the loctite. Your solution may well be the key.

When I posted, my test-fitting was on a spare drum. Yesterday I mocked up the fronts to the drums that are on the car and had no issues. But if the backs present a challenge at least now I have a solid solution. Thanks!
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:12 am    Post subject: Re: Best wheel stud kit for Empi 911 wide 5? 1966 bug. Reply with quote

For everyone reading this, also keep in mind the tightening torque for a 12mm thread. I don’t have a Bentley in front of me, but I’m thinking stock 12mm lugbolts were only 65-72 ft/lbs.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:34 am    Post subject: Re: Best wheel stud kit for Empi 911 wide 5? 1966 bug. Reply with quote

^ Yup.

Also, for my wheels I'm using 3/8" spacers, which seem to be in ready supply. But what I'd really like for the front is 1/4", which I can't find. Ideas?
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Best wheel stud kit for Empi 911 wide 5? 1966 bug. Reply with quote

BruceJ wrote:
^ Yup.

Also, for my wheels I'm using 3/8" spacers, which seem to be in ready supply. But what I'd really like for the front is 1/4", which I can't find. Ideas?


https://www.mckenzies.com/products/5-x-205mm-wheel...&_ss=r
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:43 am    Post subject: Re: Best wheel stud kit for Empi 911 wide 5? 1966 bug. Reply with quote

^ Fantastic!

But leads to (another) dumb question: the description says "accepts 14mm studs". Does this mean I HAVE to use 14mm? Currently running 12mm.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:03 am    Post subject: Re: Best wheel stud kit for Empi 911 wide 5? 1966 bug. Reply with quote

BruceJ wrote:
^ Fantastic!

But leads to (another) dumb question: the description says "accepts 14mm studs". Does this mean I HAVE to use 14mm? Currently running 12mm.


Crap...., I never made it through the description to see it was for 14mm studs. Maybe you could find some 9/16, .040 wall tubing to make some sleeves to center the spacer on the studs.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Best wheel stud kit for Empi 911 wide 5? 1966 bug. Reply with quote

BruceJ wrote:
But leads to (another) dumb question: the description says "accepts 14mm studs". Does this mean I HAVE to use 14mm? Currently running 12mm.

Short answer is, No.
Not sure this would be the case if the wheels had ball seats like the OG ones.
Stock wide-5 drums are drilled for 12mm lug bolts. But larger diameter studs/lug bolts would offer more strength. I believe the above just means in addition to the stock 12mm studs, you can go with 1/2" (12.7mm) or 14mm studs/lub bolts if you desire. As long as the 60deg lug seat is the same as the wheel. The cones of the lug nuts will center the wheel around the 5 studs.


12mmx1.50 conical seat (60deg) lug nuts are rather common. Here is a list from Summit Racing. Lots of styles and colors to choose from.
https://www.summitracing.com/search/department/whe...-60-degree

Different length screw-in 12mmx1.50 studs are fewer... looks like only 4 different lengths here, but you can go long and trim to length. You could also look elsewhere and see what you find. Try an import-only wheel source and you may find more options.
https://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/whee...Am12-x-1-5
Both brands listed on the Summit site are probably better than the "made in China" Empi studs.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Best wheel stud kit for Empi 911 wide 5? 1966 bug. Reply with quote

I think BruceJ is referring to how the spacers will be held concentric if they have 14mm lug holes being placed over 12mm studs. You are correct the seat of the lugnut would center the wheel with whichever stud, but the lugnut wont be in contact with the spacer.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:22 am    Post subject: Re: Best wheel stud kit for Empi 911 wide 5? 1966 bug. Reply with quote

BruceJ wrote:
Related, I'm installing a stud kit on my stock drums. Length looks good but mocking them up, I noticed a couple of the studs seem to "keep going" through through the drum, ie, they don't tighten when they get to the non-threaded portion of the stud. Pretty sure it's something with the threads in the drum, though they're not stripped or x-threaded. Issue? Will finger-tight studs tighten up once I apply red Loctite and torque the lug nuts wheels to spec?


Bruce, Based on your description of the lug bolt not cinching up, I may have the same issue on one of my front drums. (1966 std beetle). Tied swapping lug bolts and it's definitely the threads in the drum. I bought a helicoil kit and plan to try to replace the threads in that one drum/lug. I'm not sure if it's the best solution but thought maybe you or others could share thoughts on the idea.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Best wheel stud kit for Empi 911 wide 5? 1966 bug. Reply with quote

Quote:
Regardless of the studs you choose make sure the lug nuts match the wheels…60 degree or ball seat.

Simple way to confirm the lug nut seat shape in the rim: Take a small ball of kitchen aluminum foil and insert it fully into one of the lug bolt holes. Take a bolt or wooden dowel that is nearly the same width as the bolt hole, and use it to tap the foil ball firmly in. Turn the wheel over and poke out the foil ball thru the lug bolt hole. It will now have the exact contour of the contact surface where the lug bolt/nut sits.

Studs: How about pursuing a high quality pull-in stud kit for a Porsche 356 B? Just make sure it has enough length outward beyond the drum so that it reaches through the thickness of the alloy wheel and well/fully into the lug nut.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Best wheel stud kit for Empi 911 wide 5? 1966 bug. Reply with quote

Great ideas, all.

As I mentioned, the stud tightness was a problem on a spare drum I had laying around (to test fit) and seems to be fine on the car. But if it becomes a problem yes, the pull through stud kit is an option.

The wheels I've got use ball seat (like the OG steelies) not conical.

Yes, my main concern now is how to keep the spacer concentric, at least until I torque the nuts. I actually spoke to the helpful guy at McKenzie and he said he runs the same spacers w/ 12mm studs on a sand-rail. While we both acknowledged that a wheel imbalance would be more noticeable on a street ride, I don't think it'll hurt to give it a shot. So I ordered a pair (for the front) and we'll see. Might have to make spacers (as suggested).

Thanks for the ideas!
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:04 am    Post subject: Re: Best wheel stud kit for Empi 911 wide 5? 1966 bug. Reply with quote

Another possible option would be to use late VW 14mm lug bolts, I use to drill and tap the 5 bolt drums to 14mm for off road use, held the big wheels on better! also the 14mm lug bolts are slightly longer, of course the VW lugs are of highest quality.
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