Author |
Message |
modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26785 Location: Colorado Springs
|
Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:01 pm Post subject: Re: Bushings for carb butterfly shaft? |
|
|
Yeah that's fine I'm actually machining more plastic these days, getting into it a little. Milling it seems to work great, drilling/reaming not so good.
maybe machining butter is more up your alley.
it is more ideal, I agree.
Just saying with bronze.... makes no difference at all if it's new or it isn't, it does not change over time.
zinc carburetors and throttle shafts and plastic on the other hand of course are temporary flashes in the pan which will just be pollution for the next generations to figure out.
If you have a 8mm shaft you use a 7mm scrap valve guide. I think you got it but then again I'm not sure
Shafts can be made smaller and holes can be made larger, is the way repairing machinery tends to go, unless you run into some wall then we need to resort to more wild methods.
The whole rest of the entire thing is, well, kind of also NOT ideal, so I just don't see any reason to overkill this too much. Don't need to get into it but you want to be a critic lets take a look at everything from the gas pedal to the throttle plate and see how ideal all that is, I mean, room for improvement in a lot of areas. And it it was improved in such a way to reduce vibration of the throttle why, just imagine how long it could last!
maybe long enough to justify a chromed shaft. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Chickensoup Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 5368 Location: Good Hope, GA
|
Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:50 pm Post subject: Re: Bushings for carb butterfly shaft? |
|
|
modok wrote: |
I don't know about nickel plating, sounds good but i wonder why isn't it used? |
I'm not sure. I think there two types. Electroless and electrolysis. I'm using the electrolysis method. _________________ -'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Chickensoup Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 5368 Location: Good Hope, GA
|
Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:52 pm Post subject: Re: Bushings for carb butterfly shaft? |
|
|
Ok theres a truck load of info and points that have been made since my last post.
Just wanted to let yall know, I did read it
Sooo. The basic Igus rod is cheap as hell.
Just to clarify, this version will work right?
I started mocking up the DRO on the lathe last night. Then realized I was late for swim lol.
_________________ -'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
|
Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21513 Location: Oklahoma City
|
Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:51 pm Post subject: Re: Bushings for carb butterfly shaft? |
|
|
Chickensoup wrote: |
modok wrote: |
I don't know about nickel plating, sounds good but i wonder why isn't it used? |
I'm not sure. I think there two types. Electroless and electrolysis. I'm using the electrolysis method. |
Its "electro-less"....meaning no electricity. Its not electro-plating...the one I am speaking of.
The other is standard electroplating...a cathode and an anode. The problem with standard electroplating of anything is that it follows the path of least electrical resistance....and works "line of site" to the zinc electrode.
So...accurately plating thicknesses inside of small cavities or bores is nearly impossible without specialty electrodes shaped to protrude into the bore.
On the other hand...."electro-less" plating...uses a special (unique to each metal type) acidic/reactive electrolyte to cause an electrochemical reaction at the surface metal to....crate its own charge....to plate 100% even in thickness over and into any surface on the part. All you have to do is maintain flow of the liquid over the surface....agitate.
Also...with "electro-less plating"...you can plate materials that are "non-conductive"...like plastics and some glass.
Modok said:
Quote: |
Just saying with bronze.... makes no difference at all if it's new or it isn't, it does not change over time.
zinc carburetors and throttle shafts and plastic on the other hand of course are temporary flashes in the pan which will just be pollution for the next generations to figure out. |
Temporary?...not even.
Bronze corrodes. It also is NOT self lubricating unless its made to be self lubricating bronze which is POROUS.
It has NO lubricating properties unless it gets hot....and wears in order to release the oil that tis entrained in it. Thats how it works. Yes...it last a long time....but will not hold a candle to a plastic like torlon...which is stiffer for deflection than self lubricating bronze...which will DENT and not return if stressed...no memory.
And....lets see...while Torlon...PAI plastic has only been around since the 80's...there are no airliners made that do NOT use it all over the place.
Its friction is so much lower than oilite bronze....that it requires "0" lubrication in a wide range of applications. I have installed bushings running in machine in factories for a decade now.....with high speeds and heavy loads....with no lubrication...and no wear yet.
As for zinc ....not zinc...but as I stated...zinc/nickle electroless plating...was invented in 1946 has been in wide use since about 1955. Originally to put nickle into vacuum tubes...then zinc/nickle was created to combine wear resistance with anti-corrosion for fine detail castings like carbs and hydraulic cylinders, valve bodies for pneumatic valves....huge range of products.
Temporary flashes in the pan? Mmmmm no. This process has been replacing bronze and brass in plain bearing assemblies rapidly over the past 2-3 decades in aerospace, electronics, automotive accessory assemblies.....because ALL of the "yellow metal" materials materials contain lead and several other alloying metals that are contaminants.....and they also have poor dimensional stability at wide ranges of temperature....in comparison to plastics like Torlon and PEEK.
Overkill for carb bushings? Sure. But since they are becoming cheap....why not buy some overkill for yourself!
If you price Torlon bar stock....you will see that the Igus bushing rod stock is absolutely dirt cheap.
Ray |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Vanapplebomb Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010 Posts: 5410 Location: Holland, MI
|
Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:39 am Post subject: Re: Bushings for carb butterfly shaft? |
|
|
Chickensoup wrote: |
Sooo. The basic Igus rod is cheap as hell.
Just to clarify, this version will work right?
|
It’s cheap because it isn’t anything super special. It’s just a basic low friction bearing for light environments. For what it is, it’s good stuff, but I wouldn’t use it under-hood. The J material looses strength fast as temperature rises. Not a problem while the engine is running, but heat soak after you shut it down on dual carbs, which can get quite hot at times.
The material you want for an application like this is the iglide T500. The stuff is amazing!!!
I have done a lot of work with bushings/bearings in industrial applications, and 9/10 times, the Igus iglide T500 bearings far outlive any bronze bearing I tried. Particularly in oscillating applications. Those applications just don’t draw out the oil in the sintering for lubrication. Worse yet, if they are in an environment with even mild solvents present, they just wear out fast… and not just the bearing. They pit the shafts as well, from both galvanic corrosion and abrasives getting trapped in the pores. The T500, though not quite as slippery as some of Igus’ other materials, is unbelievably tough! The failure rate is far lower in production machinery in harsh environments than bronze bushings.
So, define overkill? Sure, Igus iglide T500 is one heck of a bearing material, and does cost about 5x what a bronze bushings does, but when you consider the time and money spent in a total tear down and rebuild of a carb, $5 per bushing isn’t bad at all. _________________ 1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Ebel Samba Member
Joined: June 07, 2015 Posts: 564 Location: New york
|
Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:11 pm Post subject: Re: Bushings for carb butterfly shaft? |
|
|
I think the “flash in the pan” he was talking About is what happens when the junked part winds up in a furnace again. The metal gets recycled. Plastic just burns up. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26785 Location: Colorado Springs
|
Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:33 pm Post subject: Re: Bushings for carb butterfly shaft? |
|
|
Right. And I don't know why sintered material keeps being mentioned, because nobody is recommending it. Tho it could work maybe depending on what kind. Not oilite.
My 1960 has little bronze wheels on the ashtray and they still work great.
It's simple and it works good enough. The carburetor on the other hand...... is long dead |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Chickensoup Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 5368 Location: Good Hope, GA
|
Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:52 am Post subject: Re: Bushings for carb butterfly shaft? |
|
|
modok wrote: |
My 1960 has little bronze wheels on the ashtray and they still work great.
It's simple and it works good enough. The carburetor on the other hand...... is long dead |
Volkswagen also made a version with plastic like rollers... Yeah, they dont last well. I had one set that had 2 of the roller sheered in half. Another that jammed up from the plastic deforming.
I looked at a brazilian carb yesterday. It has bronze bushings on both sides. Good lord, either this carb was used to the point of extreme or they were never cut right in the first place. There must be .25-.5mm of side play.
It looks like the T500 is only 14 bucks shipped for 100m's/ So still dirt cheap. Imma order a rod and let yall know how it goes. _________________ -'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Chickensoup Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 5368 Location: Good Hope, GA
|
Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2021 10:11 am Post subject: Re: Bushings for carb butterfly shaft? |
|
|
ok, The T500 is on the way! I ordered 120mm worth to try it out.
Will carbide inserts work well? I assume lube or cutting oil is a no no. Finding machining info on igus rod seems difficult. At least i haven't found anything yet.
thanks _________________ -'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Lingwendil Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009 Posts: 3988 Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
Brian_e Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2009 Posts: 3284 Location: Rapid City, SD
|
Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2021 11:17 am Post subject: Re: Bushings for carb butterfly shaft? |
|
|
Chickensoup wrote: |
Will carbide inserts work well?
thanks |
Carbine inserts don't usually work well with plastics. They all have a nose radius. HSS ground to a dead sharp point usually works best. No lube either. Bigger cuts also work better than little fuzz cuts.
Brian _________________ www.type-emotorsports.com |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Chickensoup Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 5368 Location: Good Hope, GA
|
Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2021 11:47 am Post subject: Re: Bushings for carb butterfly shaft? |
|
|
Brian_e wrote: |
Chickensoup wrote: |
Will carbide inserts work well?
thanks |
Carbine inserts don't usually work well with plastics. They all have a nose radius. HSS ground to a dead sharp point usually works best. No lube either. Bigger cuts also work better than little fuzz cuts.
Brian |
eye eye captain👍 ill give it a go.
on a side note, the last distributor i built, the new bushing was wayyyy too tight. I think it was a bronze alloy. point is, will the T500 work well in a distributor given the conditions?
Ive been trying to get the nickel electroplating right... not going so good. Mr ray has been a help. I may need to resort to electroless for my given requirements anyhow.
thanks yalll _________________ -'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Chickensoup Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 5368 Location: Good Hope, GA
|
Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2021 5:04 pm Post subject: Re: Bushings for carb butterfly shaft? |
|
|
Success! I'll explain more on this later. The two steel pieces, I barely prepped which is why you can see all the imperfections.
And here's an original style carb bushing. Eww!
_________________ -'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
|
Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21513 Location: Oklahoma City
|
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 8:46 am Post subject: Re: Bushings for carb butterfly shaft? |
|
|
Lengwindil has a good point. Nickel plated shafts with low friction plastic bushings....yes would outlast all of us.
As Brian_e noted.....yes for "most" plastics....no carbide. But for the igus graphited Torlon bushings.....use coated HSS like Tin coated. The graphite dulls the tool.
As for nickel plating. Some things to remember.
So you are nickel plating brass jets and tubes. That seems pretty cool and may be a good idea.
But.....I am not sure that nickel plating has the same surface tribology as the brass. I dont know how well a fuel emulsion will form on them. Thats one question.
The other is that on the brass parts pictured....you MUST have plating inside and out. Full coverage. Electroplate generally cannot do that unless you have electrode rods that can reach into the holes and the bore.
The risk is that if parts of those jets are not plated and water gets to them.....if and when they start to corrode.....they will corrode LATERALLY.....underneath the nickel. The nickel itself will not rust. But....nickel is also NOT a sacrificial anode like zinc.
Example....you can take a steel plate of several feet sqaure. Place a pure zinc anode into the center....bolt it on. Drop the plate in hot salt water for a hundred hours or so. When you pull it out.....you will see rust all around the edges......but you will see a big circle around the zinc anode where the electrolytic field of influence prevents corrosion.
So even a partially zinc plated part has anti-corrosion capability. Not so with nickel. Nickel itself will never rust.
So if you nickel plate a part ....it will never rust or corrode.....until....you break that nickel film anywhere. Like....if you nickel plate a part that comes in contact with another hard steel part and it wears a hole through the plating. Or if you nickel plate a brake cylinder bore or calipef and then scratch through it. Or if you have a part plated and when you bolt something to it the fastener scratches the bore it goes through.
This does not mean it WILL rust....but when it does.....the rust stays under the nickel plating. It starts to rust at the scratch and then starts rusting away underneath in all directions forming cavities. Eventually the unsupported nickel plate will flake off.
EDIT: this is why many carburetor and fuel sysytem parts are ELECTROLESS plated.....with "zinc/nickel" plating.
Zinc-nickel electroless is just bad ass. You get uniformity of coating.....sacrificial anode anti-rust.....and the hardness, surface grain and polish-ability of nickel.
However.....the chemistry and electrolyte are precise and difficult. Its rarely a simple home process unless you have serious instrumentation and chemical analysis for the baths....and you would be very hard pressed to find recipes on line. Its a very valuable and lucrative process......and those plating plants that offer it (and there are many).....are VERY secretive about the recipe and process. Its a moneymaker and they do not hive it away.
However.....if you had carb parts to plate sith zinc-nickel.....it would probably not be that expensive.
Ray |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Chickensoup Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 5368 Location: Good Hope, GA
|
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 3:09 pm Post subject: Re: Bushings for carb butterfly shaft? |
|
|
I appreciate the knowledges!
I think im going to skip nickel plating the jets at the moment until I do a little more research. I nickel plated the emulsion tube just to see if it plated better than the steel. However, I can tell you this. The uncoated but cleaned brass tube feels flat and smooth. The nickel coated tube feels very slippery and smooth even when completely dry.
https://youtube.com/shorts/FwsR-g1FS0c?feature=share
I took a video of a lever I just plated. Steel. I media blasted it, wire wheeled it, and then cleaned it in sodium hydroxide. Followed by a rinse in distilled water.
I'm pretty sure the darker flat spots is where heavyish corrosion used to be. Will dipping in acid fix those finish defects?
Thanks! _________________ -'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Chickensoup Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 5368 Location: Good Hope, GA
|
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 4:31 pm Post subject: Re: Bushings for carb butterfly shaft? |
|
|
Heres a piece that wasn't pitted. It seems the key to an even looking plate is having it so before hand? The whiter parts are from where I flat sanded it. I know the coating is THICK because I wire wheeled a piece I plated yesterday.
The brights and lows is the reflection. _________________ -'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge"
Last edited by Chickensoup on Tue Dec 14, 2021 4:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
rugblaster Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2016 Posts: 1170 Location: San Angelo, Texas
|
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 4:31 pm Post subject: Re: Bushings for carb butterfly shaft? |
|
|
I have a drill, driver, and some bronze bushings we repaired Solex carbs on type 2 with back when paper only had one side. I'll send them to someone that will use them. Pay the shipping and a 12 pack of Shiner Bock. Might be a good gift for one of you're mother-in-laws. I ain't fuckin' with this shit anymore. I'll check back in a few weeks. _________________ '69 Karmy, '69 Camper, Meyers clone, '65 drag bug, 10.78 @ 128 (sold it) '51 Dodge farm truck,
'09 MB E350 '18 MB E400, '65 Plymouth Valiant convertible and a '19 Ford F250 King Ranch (nicer, but dirty, farm truck)
VWoA factory trained line tech 75 till 90 or so
ASE Master Certification
VWoA Assoc. of Quality Technicians inductee (One of 25 in the five state southwest region)
La Confrerie des Chevaliers du Tastevin (San Angelo Chapter)
TCU ......GO FROGS!!!!!! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21513 Location: Oklahoma City
|
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 5:17 pm Post subject: Re: Bushings for carb butterfly shaft? |
|
|
Chickensoup wrote: |
Heres a piece that wasn't pitted. It seems the key to an even looking plate is having it so before hand? The whiter parts are from where I flat sanded it. I know the coating is THICK because I wire wheeled a piece I plated yesterday.
The brights and lows is the reflection. |
Oh...damn....almost forgot. Yes....with nickel plating....the SMOOTHER the surface you are plating...the SMOOTHER the plating will be. Even more so with electroless but also for electroplating.
A lot of small parts like these do better with a spin through the vibratory polisher.
Then you polish when they get out...and plate again if need be. Ray |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Ebel Samba Member
Joined: June 07, 2015 Posts: 564 Location: New york
|
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 7:18 pm Post subject: Re: Bushings for carb butterfly shaft? |
|
|
Pretty much any part that gets plated, anodizing or any other finish will vary with the original parts finish. You plate a crappy part. It looks like plated crap. Except the plating makes it look worse. You can use carbide on plastics. But unless you get stuff with the right geometry your better with HSS. If it’s a glass filled plastic it will destroy HSS pretty quickly though. Keep the rpm relatively low or you can start melting it. Sometimes depending on how much you cut and from where the part will warp after cutting. I Don’t try reaming it to size. It could possibly work if you try enough times with enough variation though. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Chickensoup Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 5368 Location: Good Hope, GA
|
Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 11:44 am Post subject: Re: Bushings for carb butterfly shaft? |
|
|
Awesome thanks for the infos yall.
Here is a nickel plated vs black oxide with polish shafts.
Nickel on left. The nickel shaft was a poor candidate. It was pitted, and very worn. Even after the Emory cloth polish, the surface us rough. Which im guessing is due to contamination while in operation. I say this because there is lots of granials imbeded into the bushing ID.
_________________ -'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|