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Excessive Tire Wear
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FL-Frank
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:52 am    Post subject: Re: Excessive Tire Wear Reply with quote

Thank you all for your input and advice, I really appreciate it!

The reason I went with the Michelin’s this last time was I wasn’t satisfied with the tread life of the previous sets of Nankings and Nexens. I replaced both of those sets at approximately 15,000 miles, and thought I’d get much longer life out of the Michelin’s. However, obviously that’s not the case Rolling Eyes

So, my plan is to buy 4 new Nexens and bring them to my local tire shop for mounting and balancing. Then I’ll install the 4 rims with the new tires on the car, adjust the front camber and toe, and leave the rear camber and toe as they are.

Finally, moving forward, I’ll be sure to rotate the tires every 3,000 miles when I change the oil, adjust the valves and brakes, and lube the front beam.
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ashman40
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Excessive Tire Wear Reply with quote

FL-Frank wrote:
I just measured the camber again. I calibrated the gauge to zero using a 90 degree square sitting on the floor at the wheel, and then attached the calibrated gauge to the straight edge and placed that against the face of the wheel in the horizontal position.

Not correct. Think of it this way... if you want to confirm if a wall is perfectly vertical (90deg from the floor) you place the bubble level tool so it is running vertically along the wall. You do not place the level horizontally to determine if the wall is tilted, right? This is what you have been doing. Camber is the measure of the tilt of the wheel... is the top of the wheel further inboard or outboard from the bottom. The measurement is taken vertically.


I think a video would help here...

Link

Notice how the tool/jig (straight edge in your case) is mounted VERTICALLY to measure the angle of tilt top-to-bottom. Placing the jig horizontally will not give an accurate measure of camber. For the best results the straight edge should rest along the outer edges of the wheel without any interference. Unfortunately, if you look closely in the video it seems that the person demonstrating has the lower left mount of his jig resting on the letters embossed in the wheel recesses. How can that be consistent?!
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FL-Frank
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Excessive Tire Wear Reply with quote

ashman40 wrote:
FL-Frank wrote:
I just measured the camber again. I calibrated the gauge to zero using a 90 degree square sitting on the floor at the wheel, and then attached the calibrated gauge to the straight edge and placed that against the face of the wheel in the horizontal position.

Not correct. Think of it this way... if you want to confirm if a wall is perfectly vertical (90deg from the floor) you place the bubble level tool so it is running vertically along the wall. You do not place the level horizontally to determine if the wall is tilted, right? This is what you have been doing. Camber is the measure of the tilt of the wheel... is the top of the wheel further inboard or outboard from the bottom. The measurement is taken vertically.


I think a video would help here...

Link

Notice how the tool/jig (straight edge in your case) is mounted VERTICALLY to measure the angle of tilt top-to-bottom. Placing the jig horizontally will not give an accurate measure of camber. For the best results the straight edge should rest along the outer edges of the wheel without any interference. Unfortunately, if you look closely in the video it seems that the person demonstrating has the lower left mount of his jig resting on the letters embossed in the wheel recesses. How can that be consistent?!


My apologies I misspoke…I held the straight edge with the gauge attached against the wheel in the VERTICAL position just as you had advised previously.
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VOLKSWAGNUT
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Excessive Tire Wear Reply with quote

The Michelin tires from Coker are not Michelins.... they use the purchased molds and use thier own rubber compounds.

You are buying a reproduction look a like ... ..

I like Kumho and Nexens.. both have average wear at decent prices.

You may find once your alignment is properly sorted out good tires will wear nicely.

Id advise find a shop that understands VWs to properly align it.
Try a Vw dealer...or reach out to local dub clubs for recommendations

Sure you can get it close in a driveway with a plumb bob and a level and a few cheap tools and ....apps but ... a professional aligner will be very accurate especially with a Vw technician in control.

Good and proper alignments are not cheap.... expect 150 ish.
.
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FL-Frank
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Excessive Tire Wear Reply with quote

VOLKSWAGNUT wrote:
The Michelin tires from Coker are not Michelins.... they use the purchased molds and use thier own rubber compounds.

You are buying a reproduction look a like ... ..

I like Kumho and Nexens.. both have average wear at decent prices.

You may find once your alignment is properly sorted out good tires will wear nicely.

Id advise find a shop that understands VWs to properly align it.
Try a Vw dealer...or reach out to local dub clubs for recommendations

Sure you can get it close in a driveway with a plumb bob and a level and a few cheap tools and ....apps but ... a professional aligner will be very accurate especially with a Vw technician in control.

Good and proper alignments are not cheap.... expect 150 ish.
.


Thanks for the advice, I totally agree, However…

The shop I took it to the last time was recommended to me by a couple of local fellow ACVW enthusiasts. Old school shop with pits instead of lifts, and the older guy that worked on my car did it with hand held devices instead of laser equipment. I watched him work on the front and when I asked him about the rear, he said the rear was “good” even though he never went to the rear of the car. I paid them $150 for an incomplete and apparently shoddy job.

And the time before that I took it to a local mechanics garage. They also did the front only, and when I tried to drive it home I made it only 1 block before turning around and bringing it right back to them because the steering wheel felt really loose and non responsive.

I’ve also asked the tire shop that mounts and balances my tires (with the adapter plate that I provide) if they can align it, and they’ve told me they “could try to do the front only”.

When I used to own older Porsche 911’s I took them to a local Porsche speed shop for corner balancing and 4 wheel alignment. They did the job right, but they won’t touch VW’s.

I’ve also checked with my 2 local VW dealers and both said they could do the front only.

I would gladly pay the $ to have a 4 wheel alignment done correctly, but I’ve been unable to find a shop that’s capable of and/or willing to do it😞
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 6:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Excessive Tire Wear Reply with quote

Sad to read those of my profession not take a job seriously.

I perform proper alignments regardless...but charge accordingly.

Lots of Vw owners are price dependent... I'll do as much or as little as they are willing to pay for ... and will not do one with a fender lizard hanging out or waiting... They take time and patience to tweak them into position.

Sorry you've had bad experiences... keep shopping...or do the best you can at home ..
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Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
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FL-Frank
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2021 2:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Excessive Tire Wear Reply with quote

Today I worked on checking and adjusting the camber, this time with the car on a more level section of my garage floor.

3/4 tank of fuel
100 lbs. placed on drivers seat
Front Wheels in straight ahead position
Took 1st readings, then rolled the car forward 1/2 wheel rotation
Took second readings, and then averaged the two readings per wheel for the final average camber reading.

Adjusted to….

Front Left. + .50 degrees
Front Right. + .38 degrees

And This is how the rears were… so I left them as is….

Rear Left. - 1.0 degrees
Rear Right. - 1.1 degrees

I’m satisfied with these camber numbers, so next I remeasured the total toe.

Front. 1” Total Toe in
Rear. 0 “ Total Toe

Tomorrow I’ll set up the strings so I can measure and adjust the front Toe In to
Total of + 1/4” and + 1/8” per side.

I’ll also be sure to center the steering wheel by adjusting the tie rods since after setting the camber, the steering wheel is cocked a few degrees left of center.

Please feel free to offer suggestions/recommendations.
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rcooled
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2021 5:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Excessive Tire Wear Reply with quote

FL-Frank wrote:
Please feel free to offer suggestions/recommendations.

Your numbers look good...nice job!
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FL-Frank
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2021 5:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Excessive Tire Wear Reply with quote

rcooled wrote:
FL-Frank wrote:
Please feel free to offer suggestions/recommendations.

Your numbers look good...nice job!


Thank you.

On the front left side, I first had to turn the eccentric 180 degrees to get its notch facing forward. Then I adjusted the camber. The knuckleheads that were in there before me had the notch facing the rear of the car Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2021 6:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Excessive Tire Wear Reply with quote

Double check the toe in spec, I thought it was only 1/8 total, not each side
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2021 7:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Excessive Tire Wear Reply with quote

Teeroy wrote:
Double check the toe in spec, I thought it was only 1/8 total, not each side

Correct.
Bentley specifies total toe-in as an angle in minutes. 30' +/- 15'. The book says 10 minutes = 0.05 inches.
Therefore, total toe-in = .075" to .225" or 5/64" to 7/32". so 1/8" falls right in the middle.
Further more, that number is "without pressure on wheels". With pressure on wheels, the toe is essentially Zero.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2021 5:26 am    Post subject: Re: Excessive Tire Wear Reply with quote

iowegian wrote:
Teeroy wrote:
Double check the toe in spec, I thought it was only 1/8 total, not each side


Further more, that number is "without pressure on wheels". With pressure on wheels, the toe is essentially Zero.


Thank you.

How is “without pressure on wheels” and “with pressure on wheels” defined?

Would I raise the front wheels/tires off the floor, and support with jackstands under the beam to achieve “without pressure on wheels”, or leave the front wheels on the floor to achieve “with pressure on wheels” and set total toe to zero?
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2021 6:01 am    Post subject: Re: Excessive Tire Wear Reply with quote

FL-Frank wrote:
iowegian wrote:
Teeroy wrote:
Double check the toe in spec, I thought it was only 1/8 total, not each side


Further more, that number is "without pressure on wheels". With pressure on wheels, the toe is essentially Zero.


Thank you.

How is “without pressure on wheels” and “with pressure on wheels” defined?

Would I raise the front wheels/tires off the floor, and support with jackstands under the beam to achieve “without pressure on wheels”, or leave the front wheels on the floor to achieve “with pressure on wheels” and set total toe to zero?

I take it to mean rearward lateral pressure with wheels on the ground (like driving up to a curb) the object being simulating the result of taking up any "slop" in joints and fittings as you drive down the road.
But, I'll see if Bentley defines it better.
EDIT: I don't see definition of "pressure" by Bentley, so I'm thinking that specification is really a case of Too Much Information. If your suspension components are all tight, I'd just have the car on the ground and set the total toe at 1/8"
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2021 8:56 am    Post subject: Re: Excessive Tire Wear Reply with quote

All angles should be checked with full weight of the vehicle on the ground. I like at least a half of tank of fuel too.

1/8 total front toe is what you want. Not 1 inch.

Another thing to mention... unless you have wheel plates under ALL the wheels be sure the suspension is fully relaxed when taking final measurements.. or you are waisting efforts.

Take it for a short drive and remeasure on flat level surface for final readings .

Lots of German auto alignment procedures require a pressure bar in between the tires to simulate nominal road force to achieve specs.... in reality its not needed if everything in the suspension is tight... they overthink it IMO..
Other manufacturers simply add it into thier specs.

Alignment specs are a good base line for tire wear and handling... and are simply not a one fits all for every situation.
What works on straight flat roads ...may not work well on roads that curve or are heavily crowned .
Then there are power train configuration... its almost limitless on combinations .
Hence...spec windows ... lots of room to still be in "specs".
On problem vehicles....I generally ask what's more important tire longevity or taking a curve at 100mph ?? The average driver doesn't want tires to wear..

Tire wear and driving feel. generally will indicate the suspensions Alignment.
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Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2021 1:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Excessive Tire Wear Reply with quote

The last time I took my Beetle into a shop for an alignment they could give me a report on all alignment numbers but would only adjust the toe-in adjustment. Crying or Very sad

I was impressed that the equipment measured toe-in by driving over moving plates that measured how much the wheels pushed the plates outward. No sure this was more/less accurate than laser measurements, but it was quick.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2021 2:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Excessive Tire Wear Reply with quote

ashman40 wrote:
The last time I took my Beetle into a shop for an alignment they could give me a report on all alignment numbers but would only adjust the toe-in adjustment. Crying or Very sad

I was impressed that the equipment measured toe-in by driving over moving plates that measured how much the wheels pushed the plates outward. No sure this was more/less accurate than laser measurements, but it was quick.


We ( our GM shop) had a Hunter multi camera and laser based ( no plates) demonstrator alignment checker this year. It scanned the license plate and populated the VIN and specs as customers rolled in. It created an alignment report.
I ran a few through before and after alignments.. I was extremely shocked how accurate it was.. Caster was about the only angle that was not measured
The 50k price tag was more than we could calculate its viability for.

Technology has come a long way since ole string or light aligners .


Link

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Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2021 3:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Excessive Tire Wear Reply with quote

I wonder if there are any early John Bean Visualiners still in use? The optical type with mirrors and light bulbs and charts and stuff. The projectors looked like outboard motors.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2021 5:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Excessive Tire Wear Reply with quote

iowegian wrote:
I wonder if there are any early John Bean Visualiners still in use? The optical type with mirrors and light bulbs and charts and stuff. The projectors looked like outboard motors.


When I bought my Whinder Binder in 2018 .....this was in the shop next to where it was stored .. obviously not used in a while ...but kool as hell to see one again.
Was like stepping back in time....

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.




Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2021 12:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Excessive Tire Wear Reply with quote

rcooled wrote:
Your numbers look good...nice job!

Looks like I was a bit hasty in my reply Embarassed

Although a total front wheel toe-in setting of .25" is just barely within spec, the preferred toe-in value for your VW would be .03"-.06" per side for a total of .06"-.12" with the car sitting normally on the ground.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Excessive Tire Wear Reply with quote

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