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Ghia Cabriolet top - 1964
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dsoucie
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:50 pm    Post subject: Ghia Cabriolet top - 1964 Reply with quote

Hi,

I have a 1964 Ghia, I bought it in 1986 (sold it 10 years later and bought it again last year). It has always had the "wrong" top.

I know the front bow should have the centre crank with the two hooks that go into the slots in the top of the windshield frame and grab on. But mine has always had the two handles on either side of the frame with small hooks that hook into the catches attached to the windshield pillars.

When the top is up, it looks fine, anyone who is not familiar with the Karmann Ghia wouldn't know anything was wrong. The windows when up don't quite fit tightly, but that maybe the way they sit in the track??

My question is, do I need a complete top frame or do I just need the proper front bow with the crank mechanism?

Thanks!
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Marcdeb
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Ghia Cabriolet top - 1964 Reply with quote

It's a completely different top frame as well as a completely different windshield frame. At the back, it attaches to the car in a totally different way. The back of the car would have to be modified in a major way, so I'm wondering how your 64 came to be modified in such a major way. Seems like a lot of work to change it over?? If it's all good as is, I don't think I would make any changes.

Do you have any pictures of the back of the car including in the back seat area? The later top as you describe it with the two handles would have also had a glass rear window.
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Marc
68 Karmann Ghia Cabrio Autostick
71 Karmann Ghia Cabrio

Previously Owned:
2011 VW EOS Hard Top Conv
2008 Saab 9-3 2.0T Conv
2003 Saab 9-3 SE Conv
2001 Saab 9-3 Conv
1998 BMW 3 Series Conv
1997 Saab 900 Conv
1997 Mazda Miata

68 Ghia Vert Survivor with 22,350 miles: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=768107&highlight=
71 Ghia Vert Restoration: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=726710&postorder=asc
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dsoucie
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Ghia Cabriolet top - 1964 Reply with quote

Thanks for the quick response Marcdeb,

The windshield frame is the proper one, with the slots in the top, but a PO had attached a receiver on each side of the pillars for the hooks to grab onto. I've never seen how the rear bow is attached so I have no idea myself about that part.

I knew it would be too good for just a new front bow, lol.
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dsoucie
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Ghia Cabriolet top - 1964 Reply with quote

Marcdeb,

I don't have any photos of the area behind the seat and the old girl is tucked away for the winter. It does have the plastic window instead of the glass. When I bought it in 1986, the rear plastic window was dried out and cracked and a new one was put in. When I bought it this second time, the top had been changed and again a plastic window was put in it.
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Marcdeb
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Ghia Cabriolet top - 1964 Reply with quote

dsoucie wrote:
Marcdeb,

I don't have any photos of the area behind the seat and the old girl is tucked away for the winter. It does have the plastic window instead of the glass. When I bought it in 1986, the rear plastic window was dried out and cracked and a new one was put in. When I bought it this second time, the top had been changed and again a plastic window was put in it.


Interesting. I wonder if you have the correct frame which was modified, or if the car has a later frame? The 64 would normally have a wooden bow attached to the inside edge of the back and the top is attached to the wood bow. The later cars have a lip and the top is pulled under this lip with a cable. The back of the early frame slants down more. The later frames have more of a vertical window at the back. I've seen later tops with plastic windows but that's not original. The later tops can be ordered with a plastic window although the factory only did glass rear windows starting with 1969.5 until the end of production in 74.
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Marc
68 Karmann Ghia Cabrio Autostick
71 Karmann Ghia Cabrio

Previously Owned:
2011 VW EOS Hard Top Conv
2008 Saab 9-3 2.0T Conv
2003 Saab 9-3 SE Conv
2001 Saab 9-3 Conv
1998 BMW 3 Series Conv
1997 Saab 900 Conv
1997 Mazda Miata

68 Ghia Vert Survivor with 22,350 miles: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=768107&highlight=
71 Ghia Vert Restoration: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=726710&postorder=asc
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dsoucie
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Ghia Cabriolet top - 1964 Reply with quote

Marcdeb,

You know when you say about the wood rear bow, when I first bought it in 1986, and brought it to get a new window sewn in, they did tell me that the rear bow was falling apart so they had to build it up with fibreglass. (This was 1986, pre-internet, in a small town in Northern Ontario, where no one had seen a Karmann Ghia and it was a place that repaired boat tops and awnings...I'm sure it would have been different today, lol).

Come spring, I'll have to dig in the back and see what's up, maybe it was just modified. Thanks for the info!

Darren
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Marcdeb
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Ghia Cabriolet top - 1964 Reply with quote

dsoucie wrote:
Marcdeb,

You know when you say about the wood rear bow, when I first bought it in 1986, and brought it to get a new window sewn in, they did tell me that the rear bow was falling apart so they had to build it up with fibreglass. (This was 1986, pre-internet, in a small town in Northern Ontario, where no one had seen a Karmann Ghia and it was a place that repaired boat tops and awnings...I'm sure it would have been different today, lol).

Come spring, I'll have to dig in the back and see what's up, maybe it was just modified. Thanks for the info!

Darren


Looks like someone was very skilled to do such a nice job - the top seems to fit beautifully.
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Marc
68 Karmann Ghia Cabrio Autostick
71 Karmann Ghia Cabrio

Previously Owned:
2011 VW EOS Hard Top Conv
2008 Saab 9-3 2.0T Conv
2003 Saab 9-3 SE Conv
2001 Saab 9-3 Conv
1998 BMW 3 Series Conv
1997 Saab 900 Conv
1997 Mazda Miata

68 Ghia Vert Survivor with 22,350 miles: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=768107&highlight=
71 Ghia Vert Restoration: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=726710&postorder=asc
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sputnick60
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Ghia Cabriolet top - 1964 Reply with quote

Yes I agree. Who ever did that work was no slouch. It does sit well on the car especially since it’s been there for a number of years.

If the rear bow has simply been rebuilt with fibreglass then it is likely still possible to remove it and replace it with timber. However, the cheaper repro bows do not bother joining the three sections with a finger joint. There is one I've spotted from Paruzzi (European supplier) Click here which is two pieces, with joining dowels and cut with what appears to be the right curve. I wish I had access to that choice when doing mine. To install this, you can remove the dress trim at the rear, unpick all the staples, swap out the wood bows and then reassemble. The fabric can be stapled back in the same place. Bear in mind that the headliner is also tacked and glued to this bow, so you are going in quite deep with this. It might be better to leave it alone unless you decide to also replace the front bow.

Replacing the front bow is going very deep in to the process. Once again, repro front bows, especially the cheap ones, are not quite 100% correct. Probably the best are 90% OK. There is a lot of shaping to get the wood too meet the top of the windscreen so it can be made to sit properly. I was lucky that my car came from the dessert and I could reuse the good original bow.
The best I've seem come from Europe. Paruzzi is where I'd start Click here. But if you are dismantling the front bow and all the fabric, then you’ve rolled back to almost a complete top restoration. Starting from the beginning and doing the entire top might be the ultimate answer but it isn’t a job for the meek.

If your original bow is in place with only the lock mechanism to replace, doing just that might be a viable option but the bow would have to be largely free of hack work that might have happened to make the set up work. You can search the classifieds for the correct early mechanism. Any year up to 67 will be compatible with the windscreen channels. It will be helpful if you can share photos of the installation so we can pick out what’s been modified and what’s needed to reverse it.

As for the windows not closing and so forth, This is always a challenge with a cabriolet. Adjusting the frame is best done before the fabric assembly. The window lift channels in the door have adjustment for tilt in and out plus fore and aft to line then up to the seals. The seals are able to be packed with inserts to thicken them in certain locations. This is all outlined in the VW manuals in the technical section. It is very fiddly and is made more difficult with the fabric stiffening the frame.

Show us more photos

Nicholas
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dsoucie
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:09 am    Post subject: Re: Ghia Cabriolet top - 1964 Reply with quote

Hey Sputnick60,

Thanks for the info. I am looking forward to spring when I can get back into the car and check out what I can with the top. I'm going to say that if its still the original frame, the front bow was replaced, as when I first bought the car in 1986, it came with the old wooden bow and mechanism still in it. I remember the bow itself was damaged. When I sold the car 10 years later, I gave the new owner the old bow. In the past 25 years and three owners before I bought it again last summer, the old bow was long gone. (as well as the gas tank dipstick, the original tool kit and someone had changed the interior colour to black among some other changes ).
The top has some tears in it, so I will have to get it replaced as well, although I normally only drive with the top down.
Unfortunately I'm not one of those guys who can do his own car repairs, so when it comes time, I will have someone else do the work.
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Marcdeb
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:25 am    Post subject: Re: Ghia Cabriolet top - 1964 Reply with quote

Pretty cool that you've had the opportunity to buy it back after all those years. If the car stayed in your local area all those years, then maybe you could try to ask around to see who did the top last time? If you're going to hire it out, they might be worth considering? Especially since they would have had experience with it already.
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68 Karmann Ghia Cabrio Autostick
71 Karmann Ghia Cabrio

Previously Owned:
2011 VW EOS Hard Top Conv
2008 Saab 9-3 2.0T Conv
2003 Saab 9-3 SE Conv
2001 Saab 9-3 Conv
1998 BMW 3 Series Conv
1997 Saab 900 Conv
1997 Mazda Miata

68 Ghia Vert Survivor with 22,350 miles: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=768107&highlight=
71 Ghia Vert Restoration: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=726710&postorder=asc
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Rome
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 6:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Ghia Cabriolet top - 1964 Reply with quote

Does your current top latch into holders welded to the upper section of the windshield post, like seen here (rbfara gallery)? Those are simply short sections of round pipe that were partially cut into a "C" shape, IIRC. I've seen this Ghia in person.
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rbfara has a '60 Cabrio that had a similar "shortcut" modification done by the PO. The top looked fine when closed, but he wanted to go back to a factory correct design. A few years ago he found an entire correct top frame with its center crank handle and the two fastening prongs and installed it himself, along with refurbishing the top cover itself. His windshield header, like yours, also still had the original slots and holding pins.
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