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Small Car Performance, DIY Front A/C Installation
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metropoj
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:18 am    Post subject: Re: Small Car Performance, DIY Front A/C Installation Reply with quote

Pcforno wrote:
Ok - Im considering adding Vanistan's fresh air kit to my already installed smallcar air setup. Looking for opinions, comments, suggestions. I was thinking of 2 possibilities - just allowing the fresh air to blow in through the rectangular hole I have currently blocked off, or possibly creating a hole in the block off plate and routing an A/C duct hose from it into the side of the blower fan. Saw some pics of this on a hot rod on the internet.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

If a did the hole in the fan box idea I would still need fresh air coming out without the ac on as there’s no fan only option on the ac - I guess unless I rigged the fan to run separate.
Anyone like this or just leaving the fresh air open or any other ideas?


Before I decided to look at the SC install, I purchased the Vanistan Fresh Air Kit. Did you end up going this way or getting any feedback on doing this ?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Small Car Performance, DIY Front A/C Installation Reply with quote

I recently just had SC install a kit for me. There just wasn’t any way I could tackle, so awesome for you guys that can install yourselves.

Here is a photo on my completed SC A/C unit. Both the a/c and heater work great.



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Pcforno
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:39 am    Post subject: Re: Small Car Performance, DIY Front A/C Installation Reply with quote

metropoj wrote:
Pcforno wrote:
Ok - Im considering adding Vanistan's fresh air kit to my already installed smallcar air setup. Looking for opinions, comments, suggestions. I was thinking of 2 possibilities - just allowing the fresh air to blow in through the rectangular hole I have currently blocked off, or possibly creating a hole in the block off plate and routing an A/C duct hose from it into the side of the blower fan. Saw some pics of this on a hot rod on the internet.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

If a did the hole in the fan box idea I would still need fresh air coming out without the ac on as there’s no fan only option on the ac - I guess unless I rigged the fan to run separate.
Anyone like this or just leaving the fresh air open or any other ideas?


Before I decided to look at the SC install, I purchased the Vanistan Fresh Air Kit. Did you end up going this way or getting any feedback on doing this ?


I didn’t.
I think the easiest way after much thought would be to do the fresh air kit and just not make a manifold or ducting from it- just let it naturally spill out over the cabin through the dash.
It obviously could be done other ways with separate ducts, manifolds, etc.
There’s not a ton of extra space back there after the vintage air unit is in.
Still considering it but it also sounds like the vanistan kit dosent totally block all the air coming in which can be really annoying in the winter
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kingfridaysyncro
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2022 6:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Small Car Performance, DIY Front A/C Installation Reply with quote

I am currently installing the Small Car in-dash A/C kit in my 1986 Vanagon Syncro Westy. The wiring diagram from Small Car does not mention anything about connecting the compressor relay to the 3rd stage fan relay. From what I understand, a properly functioning A/C system should shut off the compressor if the engine temperature gets high enough to engage the high speed fan. But Small Car's wiring diagram doesn't address this.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2022 8:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Small Car Performance, DIY Front A/C Installation Reply with quote

Connect it to 2nd speed via relay 53 like factory.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2022 10:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Small Car Performance, DIY Front A/C Installation Reply with quote

Kingfridaysyncro.

I really recommend you read this whole thread first.

ALIKA T3 wrote:
Connect it to 2nd speed via relay 53 like factory.


Ten X what Alika said.
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kingfridaysyncro
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 7:52 am    Post subject: Re: Small Car Performance, DIY Front A/C Installation Reply with quote

rmcd wrote:
Kingfridaysyncro.

I really recommend you read this whole thread first.

ALIKA T3 wrote:
Connect it to 2nd speed via relay 53 like factory.


Ten X what Alika said.


I have it connected to the 2nd stage fan relay through the trinary switch, as shown in the Small Car instructions. So when the pressure in the A/C system gets above 204 psi, the fan will increase to speed #2. However, I'm asking if there should be a connection to the 3rd stage fan relay so that when the engine temperature gets hot enough to kick the fan to speed #3, the A/C compressor shuts off. This is a safety feature in most modern A/C systems.
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ALIKA T3
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 10:19 am    Post subject: Re: Small Car Performance, DIY Front A/C Installation Reply with quote

I could be wrong but I think the AC turns on with the fan on.
I know I messed mine up somewhere, bc even with the AC off, or heater off for this matter, when the radiator fan turns on, it turns on the SmallCar AC blower fan, again, even with it being OFF. It's killing me, I don't understand how.
Anyway, that makes me thinking when the radiator thermoswitch kicks in 3 rd speed, it should disable 2nd speed, which in turn maybe disables the AC?
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 11:39 am    Post subject: Re: Small Car Performance, DIY Front A/C Installation Reply with quote

kingfridaysyncro wrote:
rmcd wrote:
Kingfridaysyncro.

I really recommend you read this whole thread first.

ALIKA T3 wrote:
Connect it to 2nd speed via relay 53 like factory.


Ten X what Alika said.


I have it connected to the 2nd stage fan relay through the trinary switch, as shown in the Small Car instructions. So when the pressure in the A/C system gets above 204 psi, the fan will increase to speed #2. However, I'm asking if there should be a connection to the 3rd stage fan relay so that when the engine temperature gets hot enough to kick the fan to speed #3, the A/C compressor shuts off. This is a safety feature in most modern A/C systems.



To achieve this goal, just add and splice in a relay that is powered on by the low-current side of the 3rd-stage rad fan relay, and interrupts the power to the compressor clutch. You need a normally closed relay. (The draw on the compressor clutch is not large, but 30 amp relays are very common, so a good call.) So, when the 3rd speed rad fan is powered on, your normally closed relay will be powered on and interrupt power to the compressor clutch.
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kingfridaysyncro
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Small Car Performance, DIY Front A/C Installation Reply with quote

That makes sense. I think that's the way to achieve what I'm after. But I'm surprised that Small Car doesn't have it this way in their wiring diagram.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 9:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Small Car Performance, DIY Front A/C Installation Reply with quote

Although I like Smallcar products, their documentation for installation of their products leaves a lot to be desired.

Not all Vanagons had three-speed rad fans. Three speed rad fans were installed on all Syncros, whether they had AC or not, because they are intended to be driven at crawling speeds. Three-speed fans were also installed on all Vanagons with factory AC from 1986 onward. The SmallCar AC system is a Vintage Air system adapted by SC for installation on Vanagons, but I suspect they did not think about ALL Vanagons when designing it.

In your earlier post, you mentioned that the van is a 1986 Syncro. That should have the 450 watt fan regardless. Can you advise whether your van came with factory AC? My 1986 Syncro did not come with AC, but did have the 450 watt fan. What I did for my DIY wiring harness was to view the 1986 syncro wiring diagram in the Bentley manual and replicated that entire system with relays and wiring slotted in to the fuse block as per the factory wiring.

There was one difference, however. I used an aftermarket trinary switch to add a "mid-speed" rad fan feature. The trinary switch is three pressure switches in one. The low pressure safety cut-out switch interrupts power to the compressor clutch when refrigerant pressure is too low for safe operation of the compressor. The high pressure safety cut-out switch does the same for an over-pressure condition. The other pressure switch is switched ON when the refrigerant high side pressure hits around 220-230 psi and is used to increase rad fan speed to "mid speed". In my installation, I find that upon starting the van in a high-ambient temp condition with a hot interior, this mid-speed fan will come on for a few minutes, say 5 or so minutes.

Your van may or may not have a functioning three-speed rad fan resistor (they do die). If you can't find a replacement, the Eurovan resister will work fine and only requires some soldering due to different connectors being used.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:28 am    Post subject: Re: Small Car Performance, DIY Front A/C Installation Reply with quote

My van is a 1986 Syncro, and it did have factory A/C. It does have a 450 watt 3-speed fan. I have wired the Small Car A/C system the same way you described. Fan turns on to low speed when the A/C is turned on. Fan moves to mid speed when the refrigerant pressure reaches 200 psi (via the trinary switch). Compressor turns off if the refrigerant pressure gets too low (via the trinary switch). Compressor turns off if the refrigerant pressure gets too high (via the trinary switch).
One thing that is complicated about my van is that it is an early 1986 factory A/C. So the wiring diagram does not match any of the diagrams in the Bentley. I found another forum on thesamba where a guy had the same issue and he drew up his own wiring diagram. So I have been using a combination of his diagram, the Bentley diagram, and the Small Car diagram. I think I have it all wired correctly. But I'm still working on the install, so I haven't gotten it fired up yet to test it.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:32 am    Post subject: Re: Small Car Performance, DIY Front A/C Installation Reply with quote

I agree, the Small Car instructions are horrible. They show some things in the photos but don't mention them at all in the instructions. They mention some things in the instructions and don't show a photo to help you understand what they mean. Some of the photos are old and are not updated to the current system that they are selling. They give you a trinary switch, but the wiring diagram with the trinary switch is not correct (it shows one of the blue wires going to ground, but that's not the way to wire it in the Vanagon). The wiring diagram supplied with the Small Car instructions shows a binary switch, but they provide a trinary switch in the kit. I could go on and on. Also, it would be super helpful if they would produce an install video and put it on YouTube.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:42 am    Post subject: Re: Small Car Performance, DIY Front A/C Installation Reply with quote

just replying to say, this an awesome thread. I'm in the uk and have imported the smallcar kit, and some of the posts here are really helping me understand the wiring and relays to control it all. Thanks! when my syncro comes out of paint i'm sure ill have plenty of questions to add! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 3:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Small Car Performance, DIY Front A/C Installation Reply with quote

Aloha hive mind!

My blower switch doesn't turn off the blower even all the way to the left.
As a result, AC is always on, at least it engages the radiator fan on speed 1. Annoying.

I need to replace the Vintage Air rotary switch, but it's pretty steep price for $34 for what it is....
Anybody knows a cheaper source or the actual name/type of this rotary switch so I can research it please?

Thank you 🤙
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 3:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Small Car Performance, DIY Front A/C Installation Reply with quote

ALIKA T3 wrote:
Aloha hive mind!

My blower switch doesn't turn off the blower even all the way to the left.
As a result, AC is always on, at least it engages the radiator fan on speed 1. Annoying.

I need to replace the Vintage Air rotary switch, but it's pretty steep price for $34 for what it is....
Anybody knows a cheaper source or the actual name/type of this rotary switch so I can research it please?

Thank you 🤙


Nevermind, I took them out, it's proprietary, their brand is written on them. I switched connector from blower with temperature knob to fix it temporarily, temperature knob doesn't need to be all the way left.
Works now.
Then I decided to clean the switch with brake cleaner while spinning it.
They look pretty tuff switches, and indeed it fixed my issue.
So back on track finally Smile
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Mike Hamrick
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PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2022 12:43 am    Post subject: Re: Small Car Performance, Front A/C Installation Reply with quote

Its been 10 months since I had SMALL CAR PERFORMANCE, in Fife, WA, install their "proprietary", Vanagon Front-mount A/C System, which incorporates heat and replaces the vanagon cabin climate controls. After waiting in-line to have this done, for over 6 weeks, I resigned myself to the price of over $5K, turnkey and traveling from OR, to put the Vanagon in their shop for a week.

As you may know, former owner of SCP, Brian, retired and sold the business to Austin and his wife, who bought SCP, and in a way being uninformed as to Vanagons and the demands of Vanagon owners. The guy who started the company and made it the go-to place for Vanagon-Subaru conversions is no-more and the new owners aren't too savvy when it comes to Vanagons. The "old crew" who remain employed from the Brian Era are just as they were, but I don't believe that the new owners have a lot of Vanagon Experience and in dealing with them (June, 21), I had a lot of frustration and disappointment. As a rule, I try not to bad-mouth anyone, but the Forum needs to know what I experienced at SCP for five-grand.

First thing, I gave Austin (personally) two phone numbers to reach me for instructions to remove the SA Front Grille, which I personally installed with thief-proof stainless hardware and hidden tie-cables, so it couldn't be removed, without knowing what to remove first. Two days passed before I get a call on: "How to remove the front grille?" A lot of phone tag took place thereafter, finally reaching Austin, who had finally found the solution. Work was scheduled to be completed and ready to pick-up the following Monday, which it was, sort-of.

While the Vanagon was still in the shop-bay, I started looking-over the work. The former A/C system hoses from the compressor were just cut-off and ends left open. The one year-old compressor, installed by another shop ($435. unit cost) had been replaced by a much older, used compressor. I requested all parts removed be returned to me but not discovered until I was back in OR, SCP kept the near-new compressor.

When the SA front grille was re-installed, common sheet metal screws were used, not the stainless security machine screws that were removed. That being unacceptable, the screws that they removed were found and reinstalled, although I had a back-and-forth discussion over this with Austin, who became somewhat arrogant. The grill was not installed straight in the body opening and it was loose, due to the sheet metal screws they has used.

Actually, the SCP Front A/C unit is not proprietary, but is a Magnum 4 unit which they buy from Vintage Aire. It is a generic unit, not custom for Vanagon. I received no documentation from SCP when the bill was paid and had to call Vintage Aire direct to get a parts list, operating instructions and a wiring diagram of what had been installed by SCP. Worse, SCP is NOT a Vintage Aire Dealer, as VA does NOT make an A/C system for Vanagons. This being the case, there is NO WARRANTY on any of the components, as SCP just buys "parts", which they install, thus it is never intended to be a "system", with a manufacturer's warrany.

When the conversion was in-progress, SCP removed the glove compartment and CUT-OFF the two plastic extended hooks of the compartment box, which hold it in the opened position. A fabricated hook was made and installed on the far-left of the box but nothing on the right side, letting it hang-down crooked from the box opening. The reasoning was that the box hit the new A/C plenum, but after my own investigation, found the hooks didn't need to be cut-off in the first place. Now when I hit a bump, the glove compartment falls open, dumping all its contents in the passenger's floor. Finally I have removed the glove compartment completely and am doing without that storage area.

The spare tire had to be removed in order to install the solenoid valves and receiver-dryer for the VA front unit. When the spare tire was replaced in the clamshell, the speedometer cable was allowed to become jammed between the tire and unibody structure. when the clamshell bolt was tightened, putting the cable was in a great deal of tension, causing the speedo needle to jump over a 10MPH range. The cable broke at the speedo end, due to the tension-stress from it being jammed against the unibiody by the tire below the dash. After calls and photos sent to Andy, the Service Manager, of the pinched and kinked cable, I received a new cable, but had already had my local shop replace the broken cable.

Believing all the parts removed in this conversion were together in a box, in the Van, when I left SCP, but not checking until later (home in OR), discovered that they had kept my near-new compressor. I complained about this and on my next trip to Seattle, planned to pick-up the compressor they had removed. But, I found they didn't have mine and instead gave me a compressor that must be ancient and likely didn't come from a Vanagon. No way of knowing if it is worth more value than if used as a boat-anchor. In following classified ads on this website regularly, I occasionalLy see used Vanagon parts advertised by SCP. Are these formerly parts that SCP customers left behind from work done by SCP??

Got on the road after leaving SCP (last June) and since it was cold and raining in the Cascades, didn't need the new A/C for several days. Got to ID, where it was HOT but the new A/C air was just as HOT, set on max-cool, blowing full. Wife suffered and told me that she was, many times. Only 3 weeks later did another Seattle trip provide a stop at SCP to fix it.

Before this, my headlight switch "smoked big" and melted itself together. I thought it odd that this happened, as it had been trouble-free for 12 years.
Not knowing anything about how the new VA A/C was connected electrically (no wiring schematic, circuit or fuse info from SCP), I was mystified why the switch had melted together.

Arriving at SCP to have the A/C recharged, I requested they replace the melted light switch. They happened to have a "used" light switch, which Austin was absolutely, beyond any shadow of doubt, convinced, would work in the '91 wiring. As it turned-out, the used switch was taken from an earlier Vanagon and had different internal connections, which connections will not work in '88-'91 models, because they have a different design for the lighting circuit than earlier models. If SCP knew anything about Vanagons they would know this. (It's fully explained in articles in this Forum.)

Not so, the old used switch (likely taken off some customer's car), burned-up also. Is this an over-loaded circuit, possibly because of the new A/C system adding electrical load to the headlight circuit? Not until I have a chance to fully investigate the wiring job for the A/C, which has no documentation, will I know the problem of smoking light switches.

Due to these difficulties, I can't suggest that you will be happy with work done by SCP. They are NOT the same company they used to be! Based on my experience with the Front A/C Conversion, and at a premium cost, installed in a half-ass manner, can't say I would trust my Vanagon to them in the future. I certainly would not go there for an engine conversion, due to the shoddy and incomplete work they performed.

Do your research about this company, TODAY. You may find there are NO current customer reviews posted anywhere on the internet. All the raves about SCP are from the Brian Era. Don't be mis-led. Times have changed.
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PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2022 7:46 am    Post subject: Re: Small Car Performance, Front A/C Installation Reply with quote

Mike Hamrick wrote:
Its been 10 months since I had SMALL CAR PERFORMANCE, in Fife, WA, install their "proprietary", Vanagon Front-mount A/C System, which incorporates heat and replaces the vanagon cabin climate controls. After waiting in-line to have this done, for over 6 weeks, I resigned myself to the price of over $5K, turnkey and traveling from OR, to put the Vanagon in their shop for a week...


That experience sounds rough and very frustrating. FWIW I installed their kit myself a few years ago and have a few observations of my own.

First, I received warranty paperwork with my kit and did register it successfully. I'm puzzled why you wouldn't have a warranty. In fact I used mine a year later when my blower developed a squeak and Vintage Air replaced the blower no questions asked (they were familiar with SCP). I would recommend asking them if they have the warranty registration paperwork or if they did it for you and same with the paperwork. I know the latter was in the process of being rewritten as it was essentially useless in the former incarnation.

During the era when Brian was the owner and and Mao was the go to, I found their customer service extremely frustrating. In fact this forum helped me with the data to get Mao to admit their AC manual was written incorrectly and change it. He was little to no help in my install and I have to admit that without this forum I'm not sure I would have completed it successfully.

Fast forwarding to this year I just installed their front brake kit a few months ago. I found their customer service to be greatly improved over the previous ownership. In fact when I had an issue during the install Austin, the mechanics, and some of his team Facetimed with me several times to get measurements and overnighted (at their cost) a custom machined part to me. I found them to be friendly, very approachable, and interested in helping with my install to my satisfaction.

I'm puzzled by your experience since it differs so much from mine and would recommend correcting some of your allegations in your post that are unrelated to your experience. I do not believe that this kit is lacking a warranty through VA, nor is it uncommon for a shop to sell take offs if the customer does not want them (margin is pretty thin a business like this and upcycling to another person is better than throwing away for parts that are in many cases no longer made).

It might be worth another call with Austin as my experience leads me to believe that they'll make everything right with you (they might even give you another glovebox). Running a shop is tough, employees are difficult to find, and running one for these old projects is even tougher. I'm thankful for each one of them that are hanging on and also sorry your experience was below your expectations. That said I do not believe this to to represent a common experience with the 'new' SCP as your post suggests.

The price of the installed kit is high, but when I look at all the hours it took me and paying someone to do it I'm not sure it would be possible to replicate that installed price especially in the current labor market. Honestly at this point it's getting difficult to find anyone to work on these vans at all let alone take on a custom project.

Lastly, I'm positive you'd get some help in this forum for the light switch issue. I'm not 100% positive but I think it's much more likely that it is unrelated to the AC install and electrical gremlins are unfortunately a 'feature' of owning a 30+ year old German vehicle.

Good luck and I hope you get the kit dialed in to your satisfaction.

MHO.
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PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2022 10:29 am    Post subject: Re: Small Car Performance, DIY Front A/C Installation Reply with quote

In response to Mr Hamrick's comment about the unit not being proprietary, it most defiantly is custom modified to fit in in a Vanagon.

There are 3 differences that I learned the hard way.

1. The condensate drain is in a different orientation as to miss the crash bar.

2. 2 of the 3 door drivers are relocated to under the unit to clear the mounting lip for the dash.

3 . The hose for Dash and defrost exit in different location as to stop the hoes from crossing over each other.

We did 2 installs side by side, my abortion and my friend spent the money on a small car unit (wise money) I agree that the electrical instructions sucked. They could have spent an hour or 2 and given you details where to hook the Trinary wires and suggestions to run your power for Ign and constant hot.

I to this day have a problem with one of my blend doors sticking . I've been in contact with VA and they bent over backwards to try and help me and at the end of the day told me to pull the unit and send it to them and they would either replace it or repair it.

In order to get this to really work you need a curtain between the cab and the back on those really hot days.

I hope it all works out but I had to throw my .02's in.

Stacy
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ALIKA T3
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PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2022 12:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Small Car Performance, DIY Front A/C Installation Reply with quote

I can't speak for the compressor story, but this all seem like they need a better bit of quality control and organisation in the workspace.
If it's the same crew wrenching, well, I'm sure they have the same "bad habits" that need correction. Leaving old hoses in place is an indication profit margins must be small, which decreases attention to detail.
I'd take the new ownership and their willingness to make things right anytime over the previous business model. Looks like you got your job done in a transition phase, I'm sure there more hiccups then there will be down the road, not that it makes it fair what happened to you but just saying I think and I believe SCP is going in the right direction, and the owner owns a Vanagon.
If I had an advice to SCP, I would charge more, but do details cleaner. It'll prolly be harder for people to swallow the price tag, but nobody ever complains about quality...

If your glove box pops open, the mounting plate needs to be adjusted so it latches properly, same with the latch.
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