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Ahwahnee
Samba Member
Joined: June 05, 2010
Posts: 9796
Location: Mt Lemmon, AZ
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 Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:35 am Post subject: Re: Cost of turnkey Subaru Conversion |
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I think we need 'best evidence' rather than speculation that it cannot be done for $7,000.
The only assessment of a rebuild or swap that I would care about is how it performs and lasts in the long run (i.e. testimonials or feedback from actual users).
Neat paint and tidy wiring bundles look good but they don't get you home.
I see a lot of recommendations and warnings here from people who have never had or used what they are recommending or warning against - but rather just parroting what others say is good or bad. |
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vanis13
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2010
Posts: 3088
Location: ABQ NM USA.... Except when not
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| Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:37 pm Post subject: Re: Cost of turnkey Subaru Conversion |
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| Ahwahnee wrote: |
I think we need 'best evidence' rather than speculation that it cannot be done for $7,000.
The only assessment of a rebuild or swap that I would care about is how it performs and lasts in the long run (i.e. testimonials or feedback from actual users).
Neat paint and tidy wiring bundles look good but they don't get you home.
I see a lot of recommendations and warnings here from people who have never had or used what they are recommending or warning against - but rather just parroting what others say is good or bad. |
true all that!
my now 56K mi swap was way under $7k
also, so we start from the same level - what all is included in a "swap" and the "$7000" ? like - a $500 donor or a $5000 crate motor? all DIY or all ASE mechanic?
_________________
83.5 Westy with Subaru 2.5, 4 spd manual, center seat, COLD A/C on 134a!, Winter camp heated with an Espar B4 gasoline furnace
www.SuperVanagon.com - some stuff I make |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16849
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:50 pm Post subject: Re: Cost of turnkey Subaru Conversion |
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| Crankey wrote: |
@skills...I'd like to see one of your install too.
Not that you have anything to prove to me or anyone I just like to see how you go about it.
Eye candy and curiosity. Your too far away for me to be a customer. |
from my build:
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
not 100% finished but i think this has to be one of the most 'factory' looking swaps
i'm still on the fence about having the fresh air pipe coated in a wrinkle finish. not sure i'm digging the polished aluminum
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
which ultimately meant doing more paint work
the final product
not sure how i feel about the polished intake pipe. i may powder coat it in a wrinkle finish. the plate i made lines up with all the preexisting holes which was done by design. i really hate making holes if i don't have to
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it's the little details that count. like the 90* elbow for the brake booster hose, the fuel line hose sleeve, the sleeve on the braised breather lines so the ends don't get all frayed over time etc.
wires routed and protected from chafing and not balled up and zip tied off to one side.....
| 4Gears4Tires wrote: |
Skills, if you compare your engine bay, which looks great, to this engine bay, of course it doesn't compare. What do you value your swap at? |
to do this for a customer? not sure. everything is new.... engine, trans, engine bay paint etc. plus i made my own exhaust system, custom throttle body elbow, hanger and coolant pipes.
boils down to how nice do you want to spend. i simply refuse to use the exhausts available that have a heat shield hanging off the timing cover.
i guess my pet peeve is what is another 200 in parts and 700 in labor to make it look like it belongs there?
these junkyard looking swaps usually belong to the same folks that want 80k for their van when they sell. why not take pride in what you do and bring it to the next level? mediocrity and 'good enough' don't fly with me.
i guess this is why people seek me out. i have another swap i will be working on coming from texas to get done.
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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Crankey
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2004
Posts: 2656
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| Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:01 pm Post subject: Re: Cost of turnkey Subaru Conversion |
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Wow that's clean. Noticed the fuel line sleeve right off.
I might go with gloss black paint on the intake tube so it matches the silicone and dosn't collect dirt in the wrinkle texture.
Looks like an install that's been dialed in over time to tidy up bit by bit.
Can't see it but I'm guessing your using an engine mount like RMW or Kennedy rather than the style that hangs from the moustache bar.
Thanks for the pics. |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22631
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:43 pm Post subject: Re: Cost of turnkey Subaru Conversion |
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| Quote: |
| Neat paint and tidy wiring bundles look good but they don't get you home. |
Untidy wiring does not go with good workmanship , the absence of which will keep you at home
When you see the workmanship like skills’ build , you know that every f* detail has been thought through and fixed. The hours spent doing this are the difference between the cheap s* job and the 20k conversion
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.ssS! |
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vanis13
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2010
Posts: 3088
Location: ABQ NM USA.... Except when not
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| Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:15 pm Post subject: Re: Cost of turnkey Subaru Conversion |
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[quote="skills@eurocarsplus"]
from my build:
[quote="skills@eurocarsplus"]
what is your build thread/topic/post?
_________________
83.5 Westy with Subaru 2.5, 4 spd manual, center seat, COLD A/C on 134a!, Winter camp heated with an Espar B4 gasoline furnace
www.SuperVanagon.com - some stuff I make |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9600
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:25 pm Post subject: Re: Cost of turnkey Subaru Conversion |
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| Abscate wrote: |
| When you see the workmanship like skills’ build , you know that every f* detail has been thought through and fixed. The hours spent doing this are the difference between the cheap s* job and the 20k conversion |
The hours spent doing this are hours have been deleted from memory.
No customer would pay for those hours.
When you get down to it - those hours are $5/hour.
Deleting all the trial and error fitting time.
Deleting all the parts bought and rejected.
Awesome, awesome end result.
But honestly, is it even relevant to a discussion of conversions that someone has to pay hard earned money for, and drive (soon).
Such is the realm of the "$7,000 conversion.
Sklills@ job, is un-purchasable.
How long did it take, 4 years?
It could be replicated though, by skills@, and there are people who would gladly pay for that, and wisely.
But the $20,000 conversion is for the customer who has "easy money" coming in.
My first DIY EJ22 conversion (1999) cost $3100. free labor
The next conversion was done by Smallcar in 2009, $12,000.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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danfromsyr
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 15141
Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:05 pm Post subject: Re: Cost of turnkey Subaru Conversion |
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doesn't take much to click his profile and check topics started by user to find.
"Saving the 84"
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=743839&highlight=
and most pleebs can't afford Skills prices, especially when he's working for himself.
this would likely be a ~$20k+ engine swap
[quote="vanis13"][quote="skills@eurocarsplus"]
from my build:
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
what is your build thread/topic/post? |
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| Abscate wrote: |
| These are the reasons we have words like “wanker” |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22631
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:44 am Post subject: Re: Cost of turnkey Subaru Conversion |
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| Quote: |
| No customer would pay for those hours. |
I would pay for that workmanship. 100hours or 13k is 2 full time weeks of my life or 2-3 months of my weekends. That’s ignoring the fact that it would take me 2-3x longer than skills to approach his work rate for my first build. That might even be a bad estimate, and if I reached 80% of his work product quality I would be very proud of myself.
Telling people this conversions are 7k is just BS.
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32561
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Schnippzle
Samba Member
Joined: February 04, 2021
Posts: 288
Location: Swede in London, UK
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:06 am Post subject: Re: Cost of turnkey Subaru Conversion |
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| Sodo wrote: |
No customer would pay for those hours.
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That is what I am doing 
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1988 Caravelle - FB25B - Syncro converted
2016 MB E63 AMG S - The daily driver
2019 Harley Davidson FXFBS Fat Bob - The leisure |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9600
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:23 am Post subject: Re: Cost of turnkey Subaru Conversion |
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| Schnippzle wrote: |
| Sodo wrote: |
No customer would pay for those hours.
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That is what I am doing |
Hours for a customer are “different hours” than hours for a personal project.
But if the end result looks like what we see here you will be happy.
And I have no doubt it will.
Its much more efficient to replicate than to design.
You don’t wanna see some of the stuff I found.
…..not referring to “the aesthetics”….
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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4Gears4Tires
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2018
Posts: 3004
Location: MD
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 9:29 am Post subject: Re: Cost of turnkey Subaru Conversion |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| to do this for a customer? not sure. everything is new.... engine, trans, engine bay paint etc. plus i made my own exhaust system, custom throttle body elbow, hanger and coolant pipes. |
The man who prides himself on doing every detail right and accounting for everything is not sure? Not sure or not willing to say? 
Either way, thank you for restating my point that a $7k turnkey conversion is not your engine bay. Yes all those little details count, they count the dollars right up. Your pet peeve is that another $900 fixes the exhaust. Yep. And another $800 fixes something over here. And another $1200 fixes something over here. And another $5000 fixes something over here. 
Skills, I respect your work. Your username is accurate. But the gatekeeping "everyone-else-is-doing-it-wrong-because-REEEEEE" sounds really silly.
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'87 Syncro
Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22631
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:07 am Post subject: Re: Cost of turnkey Subaru Conversion |
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I read the vibe as “ for 7k you aren’t doing it right”
Have you seen the Charlie Foxtrot he reworked last year from someone else’s paid conversion? If that doesn’t give pause, nothing will.
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16849
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:49 am Post subject: Re: Cost of turnkey Subaru Conversion |
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| djkeev wrote: |
.
He avoids the question, so we are reduced to guessing.
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no, i don't avoid the question....i simply don't know. i didn't log the hours on my personal build.
on a bay window it starts at 18k and goes up from there. right now prices are a moving target, what i called for 3 days ago is 30 more bux today. the only thing solid is the labor rate.
the other issue is no one ever has brough me a "perfect" bus or van that didn't need other work or add on's like a/c. that build parts and labor was closer to 32k
wild guess as to what i did to my van would cost? 22-24k and that is lumping in a built automatic from Matt Steedle.
to just roll up, build a new engine and not touch ANYTHING else.... no cooling system, no engine bay paint, no trans, no cv boots etc and just shovel in a engine....15-18k? again, no idea
a fully dressed engine using a new short block from subaru was about 5200 bux. that was with the heads rebuilt (valves/guides/springs/seals etc) shortened oil pan, all timing components from the dealer and whatnot.
adapter plates were hovering around 600 bux. so there is 5800 bux up in smoke before you even open the hatch. Jeffs harness service which is fantastic and way cheaper than i could do it adds 600 so now we're at 6400 in parts, not including the exhaust or hanger.
it adds up quick.
but...you can ask anyone i have done a swap for in the past....first thing i ask is if it's a "forever bus" or are they going to sell it in a few years. if they are going to flip it, there is no sense in spending the money. believe it or not i spend a good amount of time try to talk people OUT OF doing the swaps and listening to their needs and expectations before letting them pull the trigger on the money gun
| Sodo wrote: |
Sklills@ job, is un-purchasable.
How long did it take, 4 years?
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roughly 8 months in my spare time and it was way more than a swap. it was scrape it out of a driveway it had been sitting in for 5 years and gut the whole thing to the bone
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32561
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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pdm777
Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2012
Posts: 348
Location: Clovis, CA
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:26 pm Post subject: Re: Cost of turnkey Subaru Conversion |
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beautiful work!
that engine looks amazing,
BUTT
the cost 
I could buy a used Porsche 996
throw on a tow bar
and pull my Westy up hills for that!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The cost of having a zero mile
modern drivetrain = Priceless.
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1990 Westy Full Camper |
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Crankey
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2004
Posts: 2656
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:00 pm Post subject: Re: Cost of turnkey Subaru Conversion |
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But the vanagon is the 911 of vans, so just build that and be done with it.
Back to the OP question, turn key swap I'd say $15k to start, with a clean van and have a minimum of $5k extra and a good bit of equity in your house for a loan for overage.
For a diy swap it could be way less if your lucky with a donor and have skills. Or it could be way more with side track repairs and loss of focus and selling out with a basket case and someone bringing a trailer. |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16849
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:54 pm Post subject: Re: Cost of turnkey Subaru Conversion |
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| pdm777 wrote: |
BUTT
the cost
I could buy a used Porsche 996
throw on a tow bar
and pull my Westy up hills for that!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The cost of having a zero mile
modern drivetrain = Priceless. |
it's all in what you want in life. i could have bought a cabin in VT for what i put into my shitbox, let alone the other 10 i have.
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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Syncro Jael
Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2013
Posts: 2204
Location: Utah
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:21 am Post subject: Re: Cost of turnkey Subaru Conversion |
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Engine Conversions = $
Keeping a Syncro on the road = $$$ 
Having someone else do the labor = "sell an organ or body part"
And you still don't really know what you will end up with. My Syncro had a very early EJ22 KEP conversion. (2)two engines later, and still using the same wiring harness but everything else has been replaced with newer conversion parts.
With a couple hundred thousand miles on a converted van, nothing but smiles and some cursing. 
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1987 Syncro Westfalia Hightop - NAHT
Subaru EJ25 Forged Frankenmotor, Triple Knob.
Jael = (Mountain Goat) |
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