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deathman68 Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2005 Posts: 342 Location: Atlanta, GA
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Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:05 pm Post subject: Carb to EFI ‘76 Westy |
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Yes you read the title correctly. Working on my friend’s ‘76 Westy and I’m helping him go back to the factory fuel injection from the garbage single Weber carb that the PO converted to. I’ve acquired all the parts through various Samba members and online vendors. When I mocked it up today I realized that the intake runners don’t line up with the air plenum. See pic below:
When I searched the part number for the intake runners (022133211) I get mostly hits for Porsche though perhaps the parts are interchangeable? Also interesting is that in spite of the part numbers being the same for both L&R sides, when I try swapping the parts on the same side of the plenum, the runners point in different directions indicating that the two parts are indeed different (or tweaked?). . Can anyone confirm what I might be missing here or do I simply have the wrong parts? _________________ 1973 Riviera “Annie”
Build Thread: 1973 Riviera+Subaru 2.5+5 Speed
EJ25+5 Speed Conversion Part/Cost Tracker |
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Wasted youth Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012 Posts: 5134 Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:41 pm Post subject: Re: Carb to EFI ‘76 Westy |
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You are probably dealing with the Weber Progressive intake runner/tubes. I think they look the same, but are different.
I am 90% certain you will need to source the VW intake tubes. I might have some in the pile... and I think there is a Left and a Right. I can look for you when I get home on Monday.
I think Gary (aeromech) and I talked about this problem a year or two ago. |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51144 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:46 pm Post subject: Re: Carb to EFI ‘76 Westy |
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Wasted youth wrote: |
You are probably dealing with the Weber Progressive intake runner/tubes. I think they look the same, but are different.. |
The carb tubes don't have any place to mount injectors.
I've always thought there were left and rights, but I've always started with complete matched systems. They may be 411/412, but they likely wouldn't have 211 part numbers on them. _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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deathman68 Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2005 Posts: 342 Location: Atlanta, GA
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germansupplyscott Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2004 Posts: 7093 Location: toronto
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Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 5:56 pm Post subject: Re: Carb to EFI ‘76 Westy |
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busdaddy wrote: |
Wasted youth wrote: |
You are probably dealing with the Weber Progressive intake runner/tubes. I think they look the same, but are different.. |
The carb tubes don't have any place to mount injectors.
I've always thought there were left and rights, but I've always started with complete matched systems. They may be 411/412, but they likely wouldn't have 211 part numbers on them. |
Your runners are not from a Bus. Bus runners are larger at the plenum end than the main part of the tube. Yours might be 914 or 411.
There are lefts and rights. The part number is for the casting and AFAIK the castings are same, left or right. There are several of these runners for different engines. _________________ SL |
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Wasted youth Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012 Posts: 5134 Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:52 pm Post subject: Re: Carb to EFI ‘76 Westy |
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Ha!
The runners are different... fuel injector ports... DUH!
deathman68, I'll see what I have and get back to you. |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21518 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:06 pm Post subject: Re: Carb to EFI ‘76 Westy |
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germansupplyscott wrote: |
busdaddy wrote: |
Wasted youth wrote: |
You are probably dealing with the Weber Progressive intake runner/tubes. I think they look the same, but are different.. |
The carb tubes don't have any place to mount injectors.
I've always thought there were left and rights, but I've always started with complete matched systems. They may be 411/412, but they likely wouldn't have 211 part numbers on them. |
Your runners are not from a Bus. Bus runners are larger at the plenum end than the main part of the tube. Yours might be 914 or 411.
There are lefts and rights. The part number is for the casting and AFAIK the castings are same, left or right. There are several of these runners for different engines. |
Yes...probably 914.
The 411/412 runner part numbers (from my parts book) are
022 133 201 B for the left side
022 133 202 B for the right side
022 133 211 and 211A are for 914. I "think" the 211 A is the 1.8L. The 914 2.0L IIRC has a single diameter along its length just like the 1.7L....and are the largest diameter of the type 4 intake runners.
The 1.8L pipes in both 412 and 914 ....that I know for sure....are lightly skinnier and use the swelled/larger openings on the plenum end. I do not know about the 2.0L bus intakes for sure.
And...the 2.0L 914 runners will have three bolt holes only and will have a part # of 039 133 211 on the right hand runner casting of each side.
That looks like a 1.8L center manifold right? Ray |
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Wasted youth Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012 Posts: 5134 Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:20 pm Post subject: Re: Carb to EFI ‘76 Westy |
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Sorry it took until today to reply. I have pawed through the heap. There are not any spare intake tubes, I see they are all parts of saved engine hulks. |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50348
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Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: Carb to EFI ‘76 Westy |
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Since every FI bus engine came with a set so they shouldn't be hard to source. |
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deathman68 Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2005 Posts: 342 Location: Atlanta, GA
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deathman68 Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2005 Posts: 342 Location: Atlanta, GA
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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:17 pm Post subject: Re: Carb to EFI ‘76 Westy |
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Good news and bad news...
The good: Got the "new" intake runners and now everything lines up perfectly.
The bad: I went to install the "bus" 7-pin AFM only to learn that the holes don't line up with the air box.
Yet another part that's not from a bus (it's from a 914). Out of paranoia I went ahead and checked ALL the other supposed bus parts and they cross-referenced as being for a Type 2 with the exception of the AFM. I need the 0 280 200 018 or the 0 280 200 020. Anyone have a spare 7-pin late bay AFM laying around that they want to sell?
Can't wait to be able to get back to my Subaru swap when we finally move into the new house at the end of Feb... _________________ 1973 Riviera “Annie”
Build Thread: 1973 Riviera+Subaru 2.5+5 Speed
EJ25+5 Speed Conversion Part/Cost Tracker |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:44 pm Post subject: Re: Carb to EFI ‘76 Westy |
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quality ones come up for sale, even NOS sometimes. Keep you eyes open for them. 0 280 200 020 and 0 280 200 018 are interchangeable. Check the diaphragm on the air box to be sure it holds vacuum. If not keep an eye for that too. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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oscarsnapkin Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2013 Posts: 558 Location: Bucks County, PA
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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:02 pm Post subject: Re: Carb to EFI ‘76 Westy |
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I went through the carb. to FI conversion with my Bus after I bought it. I was fortunate enough to buy an “almost” complete FI setup from a samba ad. Clean the crap out of everything, and then clean it again for good measure. There’s a FI service manual available here that explains how to check all of the components. I had my injectors cleaned professionally by someone that was recommended here, can’t remember his name, but someone here will know. Probably money well spent. Replaced all rubber parts. I actually enjoyed the whole process, a bit like putting together a puzzle since I was starting from zero. It was a nice way to learn all of the FI components as well, so now I have a better understanding of the system. Good luck.
Found the manual:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/afc_f...Manual.pdf _________________ - 1977 CEI Sunroof Bus 2.0L F.I. Hydraulic Lifters
- 1973 Thing
"It’s so easy to laugh, it’s so easy to hate, it takes strength to be gentle and kind." |
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deathman68 Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2005 Posts: 342 Location: Atlanta, GA
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deathman68 Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2005 Posts: 342 Location: Atlanta, GA
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Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2022 10:23 am Post subject: Re: Carb to EFI ‘76 Westy |
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Got the engine put back together with all new/NOS efi parts. I've got a no-start condition.
I'm no stranger to this setup, and have verified I've got a good battery charge, all grounds in place, no vacuum leaks, fuel and spark. I then painstakingly went item by item to check functionality according to the efi troubleshooting guide and everything is within spec and working properly.
So that leaves me to believe that something is awry with my electrical hookups (also verified with the wiring diagram) and/or my ignition system/timing. So here's the thing: as I did the conversion, I messed with only one thing at a time (and didn't touch the timing) and therefore have yet to swap out my 009 distributor with electronic ignition for my shiny new rebuilt correct SVDA distributor from Sparkwerks.
I've heard that the 009 with electronic ignition *may* not be compatible due to the efi brain's need to pickup the injector ground signal from the -1 side of the coil and/or timing differences. Obviously, the easiest solution would be to install the new dizzy and set timing, but wanted to survey the gurus here first before adding another potential No-start reason to my list.
As an FYI, the bus will sometimes start for a fraction of a second and immediately die. Once again, I've smoke tested...no vacuum leaks.
Fuel pressure is good in the main loop etc etc. Thoughts on the dizzy being the culprit? _________________ 1973 Riviera “Annie”
Build Thread: 1973 Riviera+Subaru 2.5+5 Speed
EJ25+5 Speed Conversion Part/Cost Tracker |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50348
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Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:02 am Post subject: Re: Carb to EFI ‘76 Westy |
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Try swapping your spark plug wires 180° around the distributor cap. |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2022 1:41 pm Post subject: Re: Carb to EFI ‘76 Westy |
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Before doing anything else, I would dump a teaspoon of gasoline in the plenum and see if it starts, runs longer, and dies again. Report back. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16970 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2022 6:29 pm Post subject: Re: Carb to EFI ‘76 Westy |
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SGKent wrote: |
Before doing anything else, I would dump a teaspoon of gasoline in the plenum and see if it starts, runs longer, and dies again. Report back. |
True Dat
Miami? You need Telford Dorr. He lives near Carlsbad airport and they have GV service direct to Miami.
_________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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deathman68 Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2005 Posts: 342 Location: Atlanta, GA
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Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2022 9:59 am Post subject: Re: Carb to EFI ‘76 Westy |
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Quick update...had my helper come for a visit this weekend to turn the key while I hooked up the test light.
First, we dropped a spoonful of gas in the intake and she fired right up for a second or two which I take as a good sign. Next, went component by component with the voltmeter/test lamp. Everything checked out except it appears that the ECU is not grounding out the injectors on every other opening of the points as it's designed to do. The injectors are getting 12V from the series resistance block and there's continuity on the ECU trigger from the Coil No. 1 connector to the ECU pin1. Coil is known to be good and dwell/static timing has been correctly set with the new SVDA from Bill at Sparkwerks.
I found a good used Federal ECU from a '77 which should hopefully arrive by this weekend. It's the only part that wasn't replaced as part of the conversion and it's clear that it had been tampered with by the PO, so hoping this is the culprit. _________________ 1973 Riviera “Annie”
Build Thread: 1973 Riviera+Subaru 2.5+5 Speed
EJ25+5 Speed Conversion Part/Cost Tracker |
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16970 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2022 10:17 am Post subject: Re: Carb to EFI ‘76 Westy |
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I hope the new ECU solves your problem but…. The resistor pack is there to drop the 12v from the system down to 5v at the injector, not 12v. _________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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