Author |
Message |
dgsaz Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2008 Posts: 579 Location: Phoenix / San Diego
|
Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:54 am Post subject: Hard Fuel Lines |
|
|
Hello All,
I am going to replumb my fuel delivery system. I looked at the gallery and now have a plan. Based on what I see here on the Samba and various advertisements I plan to use a design similar to the Airkewld system.
Here's my question: should I have a section of rubber fuel line on the line running from carb to carb to allow for expansion/contraction as the engine heats and cools.
Some photos show hard line for the whole system and others use bits of rubber fuel line used here and there. Is this a legitimate concern or am I overthinking, again. Thanks,
dgsaz |
|
Back to top |
|
|
kangaboy Samba Member
Joined: August 28, 2010 Posts: 1062 Location: St. Louis, Mo
|
Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:21 pm Post subject: Re: Hard Fuel Lines |
|
|
I think its a legit concern...but I have been running 5/16" steel hard line from one injector bank to the other for several years with no issue. I think more important is making clean/good flares and using good fittings. _________________ -74 Standard - "CaliBug" 2084T, MS3X w/FI and Crank Fire
-76 Westy - "Gandalf"
-18 GTI SE
skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
that fucking thing looks like it drove through a J.C. Whitney catalogue and hit everything on the way out |
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
evanfrucht Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2016 Posts: 2180 Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
|
Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:49 pm Post subject: Re: Hard Fuel Lines |
|
|
You do need/want a small section of flexible line connecting the chassis line to the ones in the engine bay, due to engine/transmission movement. Other than that you don't exactly need to have flexible lines connecting each carb, but it can be beneficial. It depends on the type of lines and connections used, and the particular setup.
I've been meaning to upload pictures of my setup. I used nickel copper alloy lines and soldered on push on barb connectors (to step up the size from pump for the larger carb inlets,) then connected it all together with short sections of the flexible cloth braided stuff. The hard lines are all supported by little flexible silicone coated clamps in a few key places. I am running the stock fuel pump and no regulator. Works well.
For 2-3psi I felt anything more that a simple push on connection was overkill. Flares or AN fittings would have complicated my life unnecessarily and the aesthetic wasn't my style anyway. _________________ 1967 Bug ( the daily rod )
1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder ) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
nextgen Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004 Posts: 6008 Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
|
Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:40 pm Post subject: Re: Hard Fuel Lines |
|
|
Evan I agree, flexible at least at the ends. As for attached to the carbs, engines shake, some worse then others, I rather have flex then a gas leak.
Check out this old photo, I was warned not to put the oil pressure gauge on the long copper stem. Sure enough -- it cranked and oil leak...
BTY the Regular and gauge was also not needed, just caused problems. Ripped them out.
My bug is a rolling experiment.
_________________ email: [email protected]
The TYPE IV UPRIGHT CONVERSION MANUAL
BEETLE MAGNETIC DEFLECTOR SHIELDS
LETS TALK DUBS https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=joe+cali+ghia https://letstalkdubs.libsyn.com/ep-200-joe-cali-ty...qI3xJTCzjs |
|
Back to top |
|
|
oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12632 Location: Western Canada
|
Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:44 am Post subject: Re: Hard Fuel Lines |
|
|
I tubed in my Kadrons with 1/4" SS tubing with no flex line at all. I made sure to have a few inches of vertical run on both sides to counter the thermal expansion of the engine. I think that is important on solid lines. No problem at all in 2 summers of running but that kind of tubing is way over kill.
The engine in the car presently I did with plastic line good for 150 psi and I have had zero leaks so far with it too.
Just an interesting note, I have a camper converted '66 GMC school bus that had a hard line from the factory from the fuel pump to the carb. After many years it cracked at the carb, sprayed gas all over the engine and caught fire! My neighbor has a swather with a slant 6 Chrysler in it that did the same thing this fall. Fortunately he smelled it and shut it off before it caught fire and burnt the whole country down!
In both cases the hard line took the most direct route from the fuel pump to the carb. This is a mistake! There needs to be an "S" bend or a "U" bend in the line to handle thermal expansion and engine vibration. _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
old gh bug Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2013 Posts: 197 Location: UK
|
Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:46 am Post subject: Re: Hard Fuel Lines |
|
|
i run all my engines with S/S hard lines and never had any problems
Webers Kadron and even stock
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
dgsaz Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2008 Posts: 579 Location: Phoenix / San Diego
|
Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2022 2:55 pm Post subject: Re: Hard Fuel Lines |
|
|
Here's what I finally ended up with. There's a port for a fuel gauge but I could only see the gauge when the engine was out, so I just put in a plug.
There's a T fitting on the other side that goes from AN 4 to 1/4" push lock to the mechanical fuel pump.
How I spend my time.
dgsaz |
|
Back to top |
|
|
bsairhead Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2008 Posts: 3475 Location: viroqua wi.
|
Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2022 3:14 pm Post subject: Re: Hard Fuel Lines |
|
|
If you route hard lines with expansion/contraction in mind there should be no problems. An offset or a loop in a straight run or a kick in back to back 90's, otherwise a short piece of rubber between hard lines gives you more points to leak and you are as well off running only rubber. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
jeffrey8164 Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 3804 Location: Georgia
|
Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2022 3:21 pm Post subject: Re: Hard Fuel Lines |
|
|
I have the AirKewld setup.
I had to get a bender, a flare tool and some stainless tubing to create the down pipe. Or is it an Up pipe?
After fitting everything together I managed to pinch one of the aluminum crush washers on one of the banjo fittings. (Get some spares)
Other than that, I’ve had no issues with leaks at all.
Now to tackle why I’m smelling exhaust. 😳 _________________ Volkswagen!
Turning owners into mechanics since 1938.
“Let he that is without oil throw the first rod”
(Compression 8.7:1) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Airkewld Samba Member
Joined: November 14, 2003 Posts: 3149 Location: Goodyear, AZ USA
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
RCP Phx Samba Member
Joined: November 20, 2021 Posts: 496 Location: Phoenix,AZ
|
Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2022 7:56 am Post subject: Re: Hard Fuel Lines |
|
|
I know it's only a single carb but I found AN fittings and cloth braided hose very easy to work with and it performs flawlessly.
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
dgsaz Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2008 Posts: 579 Location: Phoenix / San Diego
|
Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2022 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: Hard Fuel Lines |
|
|
Here's what I think I'll do. Hard Line from carburetor to carburetor with a 2 1/2" by 6" loop in the middle.
Here's a sketch of the proposed design. I think it's better than a piece of fuel line for expansion and contraction.
Something like this:
What do y'all think?
dgsaz |
|
Back to top |
|
|
b-man Samba Member
Joined: May 20, 2008 Posts: 498 Location: So Cal
|
Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2022 1:44 pm Post subject: Re: Hard Fuel Lines |
|
|
Go with it, quite similar to how the factory ran the hard line from the fuel pump to the carburetor on 25hp and 36hp engines.
_________________ 1956 Dove Blue Panel
1966 Velvet Green Single Cab
1957 L41 Black Oval Window Beetle |
|
Back to top |
|
|
texastomeh Samba Member
Joined: November 20, 2018 Posts: 291 Location: Dallas, TX
|
Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2022 1:49 pm Post subject: Re: Hard Fuel Lines |
|
|
dgsaz wrote:
Quote: |
Here's what I think I'll do. Hard Line from carburetor to carburetor with a 2 1/2" by 6" loop in the middle.
|
Personally, I am using SS braided lines with AN fittings but I like this approach.
I have always been concerned about the connections and materials of hard-to-flexible lines being the weak link in the chain, especially the connections.
This approach would/could make a very clean installation. The expansion/vibration/movement "loop" could be a "U" as shown or a true "loop" (O) as used in various other similar hardline installations.
GOOD LUCK and STAY WELL!!
TOM _________________ A new engine build won't solve ALL of life's problems - only those THAT REALLY MATTER!!!
GETTING old was GREAT - BEING old SUCKS!!
Too bad that the guys that know how to solve all of the WORLD's problems are too busy working on old Volkswagens!! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
bsairhead Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2008 Posts: 3475 Location: viroqua wi.
|
Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:10 pm Post subject: Re: Hard Fuel Lines |
|
|
dgsaz wrote: |
Here's what I think I'll do. Hard Line from carburetor to carburetor with a 2 1/2" by 6" loop in the middle.
Here's a sketch of the proposed design. I think it's better than a piece of fuel line for expansion and contraction.
Something like this:
What do y'all think?
dgsaz |
Instead of the U shape run the lines down (vertical) from the carbs than horizontally between them. You will have two 90 degree bends instead of four. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26743 Location: Colorado Springs
|
Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:44 pm Post subject: Re: Hard Fuel Lines |
|
|
RCP Phx wrote: |
I know it's only a single carb but I found AN fittings and cloth braided hose very easy to work with and it performs flawlessly.
|
Fancy fuel lines are usually lot a bunch of wanking, but this setup is NICE.
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
RCP Phx Samba Member
Joined: November 20, 2021 Posts: 496 Location: Phoenix,AZ
|
Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2022 5:02 pm Post subject: Re: Hard Fuel Lines |
|
|
Fancy fuel lines are usually lot a bunch of wanking, but this setup is NICE.
[/quote]
I like the stuff because I use tons of it on all my vehicles (including my boat), comes in standard sizes and I can get ends at least to *180 to fit almost any application. I run it for fuel lines, brake lines, transmission lines, power steering lines and vent lines. I even have engine oil "pre-oiler" on my Jeep stroker motor and I use it every day before the first start and I can reach almost 30psi without cranking the motor over, I have been thinking about for my new 2110 motor
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
dgsaz Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2008 Posts: 579 Location: Phoenix / San Diego
|
Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:21 am Post subject: Re: Hard Fuel Lines |
|
|
Well here's the final result.
But first, here's what I've learned.
After working with aluminium and stainless steel I determined that the copper/nickel tubing to be the best overall material. It's strong, bends easily and takes a flare nicely.
Learning to measure and bend is a process. Flare, add fittings, bend. If you fail to load the fittings in the right direction or the wrong order or forgot them all together, you are "hosed". Same for bending with out the fittings in place.
Tools, both bender and flare tools need to be high quality if you want to work stainless steel. If using aluminium or copper nickel cheap tools are fine. That said, if you are going to do more of this type of fabrication, get the good tools.
I plan to install an AN bulkhead fitting at the fuel line pass through in the sheet metal. That way I can attach to both sides with a AN 4 fitting on the fuel line to tank and one to the fuel pump.
Here's some photos:
Bones from the learning process.
There you have it.
dgsaz |
|
Back to top |
|
|
oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12632 Location: Western Canada
|
Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:16 pm Post subject: Re: Hard Fuel Lines |
|
|
dgsaz wrote: |
Here's what I think I'll do. Hard Line from carburetor to carburetor with a 2 1/2" by 6" loop in the middle.
Here's a sketch of the proposed design. I think it's better than a piece of fuel line for expansion and contraction.
Something like this:
What do y'all think? |
Yes!
bsairhead wrote: |
Instead of the U shape run the lines down (vertical) from the carbs than horizontally between them. You will have two 90 degree bends instead of four. |
Absolutely! The bends can face up, down or horizontally anywhere it is convenient as long as the loop is 90* to the expected expansion direction of the engine.
dgsaz wrote: |
Well here's the final result.
But first, here's what I've learned.
After working with aluminium and stainless steel I determined that the copper/nickel tubing to be the best overall material. It's strong, bends easily and takes a flare nicely.
Learning to measure and bend is a process. Flare, add fittings, bend. If you fail to load the fittings in the right direction or the wrong order or forgot them all together, you are "hosed". Same for bending with out the fittings in place.
Tools, both bender and flare tools need to be high quality if you want to work stainless steel. If using aluminium or copper nickel cheap tools are fine. That said, if you are going to do more of this type of fabrication, get the good tools.
I plan to install an AN bulkhead fitting at the fuel line pass through in the sheet metal. That way I can attach to both sides with a AN 4 fitting on the fuel line to tank and one to the fuel pump.
Here's some photos:
There you have it.
dgsaz |
Sweet! That will never give you any grief. Even a 3" or 4" loop would have done the job. _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
texastomeh Samba Member
Joined: November 20, 2018 Posts: 291 Location: Dallas, TX
|
Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:42 pm Post subject: Re: Hard Fuel Lines |
|
|
dgsaz,
Looks (and should work) GREAT!!
Personally, I would have gone with a 3" or 4" loop ( as noted by oprn) in the center rather than the "U", but that is a STRICTLY a PERSONAL aesthetic preference not intended in any way to distract from your approach.
It makes such a clean installation that you have gotten me to rethinking my SS braided line.
WELL DONE!!
Tom _________________ A new engine build won't solve ALL of life's problems - only those THAT REALLY MATTER!!!
GETTING old was GREAT - BEING old SUCKS!!
Too bad that the guys that know how to solve all of the WORLD's problems are too busy working on old Volkswagens!! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|