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germansupplyscott Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2004 Posts: 7090 Location: toronto
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Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:54 pm Post subject: Re: Main and Camshaft Bearings - Can they be reused? |
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I've always found the best place to hear engine sounds is at the fresh air intake vents at the side of the bus. They are almost perfectly at ear level and they act like a stethoscope to the engine, and they filter out most of the exhaust sound. They also isolate the left from the right. Also a good place is from the engine access hatch, that is a good place to hear bottom end noises. _________________ SL |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22568 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:34 am Post subject: Re: Main and Camshaft Bearings - Can they be reused? |
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You mean the hot air vents releasing hot engine bay air, right?
There is a great app fir iPhone called VibroPro which lets you map amd analyse frequencies of vibration to help isolate them. It’s great for drivetrainstuff, to sort out preamp post differential. _________________ .ssS! |
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VWLover77 Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2003 Posts: 992 Location: North Canton, Ohio
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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:30 pm Post subject: Re: Main and Camshaft Bearings - Can they be reused? |
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No rattling from the CAT.
I guess at this point my main question is:
From what you've heard so far, is the source of this noise going to reveal itself as the engine gets disassembled, or am I going to end up with it all in pieces still wondering what the heck it was?
I wrote up a summary of the entire sordid engine history that led to this point. It's here: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=762607 _________________ Don
1978 Westy
1971 Super Beetle Convertible
"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world." - J.R.R. Tolkien |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:59 pm Post subject: Re: Main and Camshaft Bearings - Can they be reused? |
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Quote: |
or am I going to end up with it all in pieces still wondering what the heck it was? |
maybe. VW engines are noisy. Even more so when the parts we are using get worn. You basically want to eliminate each noise until the one bothering you is the only one left.
A perfect example - I used a new cam brazilian cam gear. It had a little run out in it that I could not get rid of. I had a noise. Pulled it apart and found that the crank end play had opened up. Came to the conclusion that the runout walked the crank back and forth opening it up, the cam end play had opened up too. Bought every used aluminum gear I could get my hands on, cleaned, inspected and had all milled for a new cam. Chose the one that best fit the right lash. The noise went away. Colin had it happen to him too, same scenario almost except he swapped his gear while on the road.
You really must eliminate all the other odd noises as best you can, then listen where the noise is, how it occurs so when you look for it you find it.
I'll be really candid. I've built thousands of engines. I've built racing engines that run long, hard and high RPMs. I've built many type 1 VW engines. My type IV engine has given me more headaches than any other engine I have ever built. I blame it on the lack of quality parts. Every single step has been a challenge. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Starbucket Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2007 Posts: 4007 Location: WA
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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:04 pm Post subject: Re: Main and Camshaft Bearings - Can they be reused? |
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How did you break-in the new cam & lifters? You start the motor and bring the RPMs up to 2000 for 10-15 min.s don't let it idle. |
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VWLover77 Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2003 Posts: 992 Location: North Canton, Ohio
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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:31 pm Post subject: Re: Main and Camshaft Bearings - Can they be reused? |
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Starbucket wrote: |
How did you break-in the new cam & lifters? You start the motor and bring the RPMs up to 2000 for 10-15 min.s don't let it idle. |
I started the engine, immediately put a brick on the accelerator to hold 3,000 RPM, and let it run for 15 minutes while crawling all over it looking for leaks or any other issues. _________________ Don
1978 Westy
1971 Super Beetle Convertible
"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world." - J.R.R. Tolkien |
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Starbucket Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2007 Posts: 4007 Location: WA
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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:20 pm Post subject: Re: Main and Camshaft Bearings - Can they be reused? |
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Did you check the gap on the new rings? The motor sounds like it's laboring just idling. |
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VWLover77 Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2003 Posts: 992 Location: North Canton, Ohio
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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 7:12 pm Post subject: Re: Main and Camshaft Bearings - Can they be reused? |
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Starbucket wrote: |
Did you check the gap on the new rings? The motor sounds like it's laboring just idling. |
I did. I can't find my sheet with the actual measurements at the moment, but all were well within spec. I do remember being impressed with the Hastings rings. _________________ Don
1978 Westy
1971 Super Beetle Convertible
"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world." - J.R.R. Tolkien |
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germansupplyscott Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2004 Posts: 7090 Location: toronto
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Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:03 am Post subject: Re: Main and Camshaft Bearings - Can they be reused? |
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Abscate wrote: |
You mean the hot air vents releasing hot engine bay air, right? |
The vents on the side bring cold air into the engine compartment. If the Bus is stopped some hot air might come out of there but while moving the vents are the main source of air to the engine. The hot air comes out beneath the engine. _________________ SL |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22568 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:07 am Post subject: Re: Main and Camshaft Bearings - Can they be reused? |
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germansupplyscott wrote: |
Abscate wrote: |
You mean the hot air vents releasing hot engine bay air, right? |
The vents on the side bring cold air into the engine compartment. If the Bus is stopped some hot air might come out of there but while moving the vents are the main source of air to the engine. The hot air comes out beneath the engine. |
I was just trolling the 10 page thread debate on this same issue, _________________ .ssS! |
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VWLover77 Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2003 Posts: 992 Location: North Canton, Ohio
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Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:43 am Post subject: Re: Main and Camshaft Bearings - Can they be reused? |
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Here's some more videos, for what they're worth....
At the Left side air INTAKE
Link
At the Right side air intake
(The mic is picking up some sound of exhaust from the tailpipe)
Link
From the top access hatch
Link
From behind
Link
_________________ Don
1978 Westy
1971 Super Beetle Convertible
"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world." - J.R.R. Tolkien |
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Starbucket Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2007 Posts: 4007 Location: WA
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Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:54 pm Post subject: Re: Main and Camshaft Bearings - Can they be reused? |
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Do you have any way to check your oil pressure? Did you remove the oil pressure relief pistons and flush the gallerys before assembly? The motor sounds like a thrashing machine, sorry. |
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VWLover77 Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2003 Posts: 992 Location: North Canton, Ohio
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Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:24 pm Post subject: Re: Main and Camshaft Bearings - Can they be reused? |
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Starbucket wrote: |
Do you have any way to check your oil pressure? Did you remove the oil pressure relief pistons and flush the gallerys before assembly? The motor sounds like a thrashing machine, sorry. |
I don't currently have an oil pressure gauge...... but Christmas is coming!
The case arrived from European Motorworks freshly align-bored, with threaded oil gallery plug holes, no pressure relief pistons installed, and clean. I flushed the galleries anyway just to be sure.
No apologies needed. I know it sounds bad, hence this thread. _________________ Don
1978 Westy
1971 Super Beetle Convertible
"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world." - J.R.R. Tolkien |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:44 pm Post subject: Re: Main and Camshaft Bearings - Can they be reused? |
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Your 3rd video....."access hatch idle and rev"......says most of it. I still hear possible exhaust leaks...but as you let off the rev and it was dropping down to around 1100-1200 ish on its way down to idle.....that large cacophony....sounds like valve train.
Loose or worn out lifters in the bore or worn bores ...and lots of slop in the valve train.
Yes...you noted you have solid spacers....what were your side clearances?
Also you noted two turns on adjusters....but if you have sloppy lifter bores of low oil pressure you could be getting slack...or you could be too tight and hammering the cam lobes.
I say hammering because its a hammering sound in that narrow rpm range.
It could even be a loose head or a loose manifold to head.
Let it get cold...spray around some mist from a sprayer bottle with 50/50 dish soap and water....on the exhaust manifold to head joints and from underneath (may need to remove sled tins) and around the head to cylinder joint and around muffler to header joints. Start bus and get under quick and look for bubbles and foam.
Ray |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:11 pm Post subject: Re: Main and Camshaft Bearings - Can they be reused? |
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what was the cam gear endplay? _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12688 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:26 pm Post subject: Re: Main and Camshaft Bearings - Can they be reused? |
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This is the speed of the concerning sound, correct? I hear it lower in the engine and in a metallic tapping like valve train. That could be an exhaust leak and a lifter/rocker-related issue. Skills mentioned a potential piston offset issue in the other thread as well.
Link
If those are aftermarket lifters, adjust them at 3/4 turn preload and see how the engine responds. Of course, you'll forensically note the initial and final points, right? Our buses tell us things when those adjustments change…
Robbie
Link
_________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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VWLover77 Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2003 Posts: 992 Location: North Canton, Ohio
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Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:19 am Post subject: Re: Main and Camshaft Bearings - Can they be reused? |
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Well, it's 25 degrees at the moment, so I won't be doing much with a running engine today!
I will warm up the garage and readjust the lifters, though. The lifters are brand new OE VW (Brazilian) from CIP1.
It's quite possible the lifter bores are worn out in the case. I did not check them, and I have no idea if George at European did either, but I doubt it.
I'm confused about the rocker arm side clearance question. I have the stock hydraulic lifter rocker arm assemblies with one spacer in the middle and the wavy washers between it and the rocker arms. Do I measure the clearances without the wavy washers installed? What is a good measurement value? _________________ Don
1978 Westy
1971 Super Beetle Convertible
"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world." - J.R.R. Tolkien |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12688 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:00 am Post subject: Re: Main and Camshaft Bearings - Can they be reused? |
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Side clearance measurement is for solid shaft spacers, like those sold on the T4 store. Once in a blue moon your wavy washers might hang up, gall, or make noise on the rocker pedestals. Look carefully during your adjustment, and also keep an eye out for a pushrod wire out of place. _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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VWLover77 Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2003 Posts: 992 Location: North Canton, Ohio
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Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:44 am Post subject: Re: Main and Camshaft Bearings - Can they be reused? |
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SGKent wrote: |
what was the cam gear endplay? |
It was 0.003" . _________________ Don
1978 Westy
1971 Super Beetle Convertible
"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world." - J.R.R. Tolkien |
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Starbucket Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2007 Posts: 4007 Location: WA
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Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:07 pm Post subject: Re: Main and Camshaft Bearings - Can they be reused? |
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Hopefully the valve covers will have plenty of oil splashed around when you remove them. I always adjusted hyd. lifters with the motor idling so I know they are pumped up, Did you pre-fill the lifters before assembly? |
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